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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahaxton View Post
    Tapping on the date in the header bar of any of the three calendar views takes you directly to the "Jump To" menu, bypassing swiping down for the menu and tapping "Jump To...." just to make it a little faster.
    There ya' go, another 1/2 second saved, and all it took was someone describing the process, instead of moaning that it doesn't work.

    1/2 second here, a 1/2 second there, Pre-Calendar Nirvana can't be far behind...
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    The fact that the Pre combines multiple calendars, if implemented correctly, should have no effect whatsoever on responsiveness.

    So again, what is the objection to Palm fixing the Calendar app? Is there a reason not to fix it?
    It's not broken. That's the reason for not "fixing" it. I will refuse to play your silly asinine game. As soon as I say "well, they could do this", you will gleefully (and falsely) proclaim that we're in agreement that it's broke.

    We're not.

    It isn't.
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    "Herb, what's your availability on July 8, 2010", there are different ways I can get there:
    This oversimplified the calender problem, which prevents meaningful solutions. Let me clarify for you that the issue is not simply navigating to a defined date in the future. (Though the Pre is indeed weak in this regard). No, the problem becomes acute when a user must go to multiple dates, looking at various entries, which when weighed and processed, can inform the user as to how best to leverage their their calender,time and life. Lag prevents this from happening in a manner that works for some people in real time, real life, real business.

    We ask for a fix. Yes a fix which by definition, does not requires and admission that our precious pre is broken, just that Palm should..."1 a : to make firm, stable, or stationary b : to give a permanent or final form." fix - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahaxton View Post
    Tapping on the date in the header bar of any of the three calendar views takes you directly to the "Jump To" menu, bypassing swiping down for the menu and tapping "Jump To...." just to make it a little faster.
    In the spirit of sharing, you can then also use the keyboard to select the date and time instead of tediously tapping and scrolling the wheels.

    What's missing from this widget is a day indicator. A lot of tedious browsing would be saved if there was a way to just find the next Tuesday instead of just seeing numbers.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    It's not broken. That's the reason for not "fixing" it. I will refuse to play your silly asinine game. As soon as I say "well, they could do this", you will gleefully (and falsely) proclaim that we're in agreement that it's broke.

    We're not.

    It isn't.
    Okay, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not attached to defining it as broken which you seem offended by. I'm asking that Palm address these deficiencies in functionality that are preventing the use when interacting with others in real time. As I've pointed out before, this is a requirement documented even in Palm's own development guidelines. We don't have to call it broken but it needs work and is right now unusable in critical situations.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  6. jc924's Avatar
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    #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    And, and has been acknowledged, on Palm OS these operations were nearly instantaneous. What people are asking is the same level usability.
    I'm not too sure how instantaneous it was. I haven't used my Treo for seven months, but I seem to remember that it took several taps to jump to a specific date, even with Datebook. Admittedly, it was a calendar-based date picker, but I am not sure that such a picker would work well with finger taps rather than a stylus.
  7. #187  
    Mods, can you do something about the insults and baiting? We are trying to keep this on topic.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by jc924 View Post
    I'm not too sure how instantaneous it was. I haven't used my Treo for seven months, but I seem to remember that it took several taps to jump to a specific date, even with Datebook. Admittedly, it was a calendar-based date picker, but I am not sure that such a picker would work well with finger taps rather than a stylus.
    Instantaneous means quick. It will take a few taps to accomplish anything but it worked. It never got in the way of doing things. And, I could always search it to find an event. The date selection widget popped up in a fraction of a second, paging to the next month and so on with instantaneous and effortless. When the UI is this responsive, you can keep up with people in real time. For example if someone is asking you for availability dates in person or over the phone. With the Pre, unless in the most simple cases and some luck, people need to wait on you or you just tell them you'll get back to them later.

    It makes no difference that the Pre now consolidates a few sources for the calendar. On Palm OS, it would display all categories or only filter those selected. Similarly, on webOS, it displays events from different calendars. "Calendar" vs "Category". Internally it's all just data even if conceptually we think of them as disparate services.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Okay, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not attached to defining it as broken which you seem offended by. I'm asking that Palm address these deficiencies in functionality that are preventing the use when interacting with others in real time. As I've pointed out before, this is a requirement documented even in Palm's own development guidelines. We don't have to call it broken but it needs work and is right now unusable in critical situations.
    Part of the problem is that you are talking about "possible" situations, and haven't shown me actual scenarios where it's failed.

    In the convoluted scenario (that's still pretty vague) described (vaugely) by eekinsman, I don't see how any device would have worked, including the Treo or BlackBerry. Shoot, even with paper, there'd have been a lot of flipping around.

    If you're trying to convince me, you haven't done it. If you're trying to convince Palm, I suspect you'll have less success than with me, until you get to real-world scenarios that can be replicated.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Part of the problem is that you are talking about "possible" situations, and haven't shown me actual scenarios where it's failed.

    In the convoluted scenario (that's still pretty vague) described (vaugely) by eekinsman, I don't see how any device would have worked, including the Treo or BlackBerry. Shoot, even with paper, there'd have been a lot of flipping around.

    If you're trying to convince me, you haven't done it. If you're trying to convince Palm, I suspect you'll have less success than with me, until you get to real-world scenarios that can be replicated.
    It happens to me regularly. I cannot give people answers pertaining to my calendar when they ask me. I have to ask them to wait. If they email me, I can handle it because they are not waiting for an immediate answer, but again, in real time, it's not possible to work with the calendar.

    Why would I ask to fix something that doesn't bother me? Are you doubting that I really experience what I'm reporting?

    It's effortless to move around the calendar in the old Palm OS and the BlackBerry. First, because there is no lag, second, because the widgets for selecting dates are more elaborate, saving you taps and tedious browsing.

    Even in a notebook or paper calendar one has to flip. That's not the issue, it's the efficiency you can do it with. With the lag on the Pre it's impractical except in trivial cases.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  11. #191  
    Just to add another point to my post above: there are two navigation paradigms for getting info from the calendar, browsing or querying/searching.

    Right now, browsing is extremely slow and querying is non existent. Were Palm to implement at least one of those correctly, the calendar could be usable. But all we have at the moment is very slow browsing and no ability to query to substitute for browsing.

    Palm needs to finish these parts to make the calendar app usable.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  12. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It happens to me regularly. I cannot give people answers pertaining to my calendar when they ask me. I have to ask them to wait. If they email me, I can handle it because they are not waiting for an immediate answer, but again, in real time, it's not possible to work with the calendar.
    ...
    And each time you talk about 10-15 second delays to launch the program (it seems to vary for you). This is not normal. I would not put up with it. I have never had my Pre take more than 5 seconds to open the calendar, and it's usually only 2-3.

    Then you spoke of "several seconds" two swtich screens, and more "lag" to get to the time/date you want. I don't have that experience. There is maybe a half second delay on the various popups. That 1/2 delay is the same amount of delay I always saw with my Treo.

    The only noticable lag I have is when I try to browse one day at a time. My Pre will always hold me back from the next day, until the day I'm on is populated. Is this a problem that needs to be "fixed"? I don't think so. I think I just need to use the program the way it's designed.

    Seriously, if I was experiencing 10-15 delays opening the Calendar app, I'd take it back.

    If it was "occasional", I'd probably write it off as a "one of those things". Much the way I wrote off my Treo occasionally rebooting when running an app, and always rebooting when I ran BackupMan.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    And each time you talk about 10-15 second delays to launch the program (it seems to vary for you). This is not normal. I would not put up with it. I have never had my Pre take more than 5 seconds to open the calendar, and it's usually only 2-3.

    Then you spoke of "several seconds" two swtich screens, and more "lag" to get to the time/date you want. I don't have that experience. There is maybe a half second delay on the various popups. That 1/2 delay is the same amount of delay I always saw with my Treo.

    The only noticable lag I have is when I try to browse one day at a time. My Pre will always hold me back from the next day, until the day I'm on is populated. Is this a problem that needs to be "fixed"? I don't think so. I think I just need to use the program the way it's designed.

    Seriously, if I was experiencing 10-15 delays opening the Calendar app, I'd take it back.

    If it was "occasional", I'd probably write it off as a "one of those things". Much the way I wrote off my Treo occasionally rebooting when running an app, and always rebooting when I ran BackupMan.
    I think some of it has to do with not having enough memory to launch (though I may have none or just one other app running). The lags are not consistent and I don't time them with a stop watch, I'm trying to accomplish other things when I use it. But it's not even remotely comparable with the performance of the Treo or Centro. Those calendars were effortless to use. The lag between rendering weekly or monthly views is all over the place, I don't know why or what the average wait time, but it's definitely sluggish. When I work with multiple events even 2 second delays between every view add up. In the end I'm the only one still waiting to get info from my Pre while everyone else present with their notebooks, BlackBerrys and iPhones is already done.

    The lag between day views has an additional subtlety that makes it more frustrating. When attempting to swipe the screen and it doesn't respond, it also doesn't buffer your swipe. That is, once it becomes responsive (not grayed out), it doesn't recall that you swiped and it just sits there waiting for you to swipe again. That's just a bad implementation that frustrates users. The entire experience is aggravating.

    There is absolutely no technical reason for the lag, it's bad implementation. And even if Palm couldn't find the time to fix it, at the very least, the calendar should not animate and render elaborate views until performance is improved.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  14. #194  
    Good points, all of them, Sivan. Would you agree that much if not all of what needs to be fixed on the calendar can be done by updates from Palm? I tend to think so. Which really gives me hope and would really speak well of the flexibility of WebOs and Palm's ability to morph positive changes via forced ota updates. It kinda becomes an OS that is evolving as it meets user needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I think some of it has to do with not having enough memory to launch (though I may have none or just one other app running). The lags are not consistent and I don't time them with a stop watch, I'm trying to accomplish other things when I use it. But it's not even remotely comparable with the performance of the Treo or Centro. Those calendars were effortless to use. The lag between rendering weekly or monthly views is all over the place, I don't know why or what the average wait time, but it's definitely sluggish. When I work with multiple events even 2 second delays between every view add up. In the end I'm the only one still waiting to get info from my Pre while everyone else present with their notebooks, BlackBerrys and iPhones is already done.

    The lag between day views has an additional subtlety that makes it more frustrating. When attempting to swipe the screen and it doesn't respond, it also doesn't buffer your swipe. That is, once it becomes responsive (not grayed out), it doesn't recall that you swiped and it just sits there waiting for you to swipe again. That's just a bad implementation that frustrates users. The entire experience is aggravating.

    There is absolutely no technical reason for the lag, it's bad implementation. And even if Palm couldn't find the time to fix it, at the very least, the calendar should not animate and render elaborate views until performance is improved.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by eekinsman View Post
    Good points, all of them, Sivan. Would you agree that much if not all of what needs to be fixed on the calendar can be done by updates from Palm? I tend to think so. Which really gives me hope and would really speak well of the flexibility of WebOs and Palm's ability to morph positive changes via forced ota updates. It kinda becomes an OS that is evolving as it meets user needs.
    All of this is fixable OTA but whether Palm has it as a priority in compare to, say, getting Flash running or supporting JavaScript game development, is unknown, and worrying.

    In the nearly six months since launch there have been some sync and notification related bug fixes and a better implementation of the custom repeat scheduling UI. Performance has improved only marginally, and search is still not available.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  16. #196  
    I figure I will just delete off topic arguements. Hparson and eekinsman can continue their playful banter outside of this particular thread. Preferably via IM so we can declutter a bit.
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  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    In the spirit of sharing, you can then also use the keyboard to select the date and time instead of tediously tapping and scrolling the wheels.
    I missed this earlier. So, some more fractions of seconds, keep it up, and we will reach Pre Calendar Nirvana.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    What's missing from this widget is a day indicator. A lot of tedious browsing would be saved if there was a way to just find the next Tuesday instead of just seeing numbers.
    Wouldn't this be the appropriate time to switch to week view, look to see which one is Tuesday, and select it?
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    I figure I will just delete off topic arguements. Hparson and eekinsman can continue their playful banter outside of this particular thread. Preferably via IM so we can declutter a bit.
    But dude ... it's hparsons.
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Wouldn't this be the appropriate time to switch to week view, look to see which one is Tuesday, and select it?
    It's too slow to move between day to week and back to the day view again.

    In this particular example the quickest way is to just calculate the number mentally, though in other examples, say, into the next month it can be tricky but in the end I'd prefer the Pre calculate it while I'm thinking of more important things at that moment.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  20. jc924's Avatar
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    #200  
    I am still frustrated by this "extremely slow" concept. I just flicked ahead seven days in about 8 seconds. I went to week view and flicked ahead four weeks in 5 seconds and then, in two seconds, tapped on a given day. Then in month view flicked back three months and tapped on a given day in 5 seconds. That seems like a lot of moving around in less than 30 seconds. By the way, in month view and week view it doesn't wait until the screen is populated to flick to the next screen; you can just keep flicking as fast as your thumb can flick. So, it seems to me that using a combination of the views and the "Jump to Date" in the header bar allows you to navigate fairly quickly around the calendar.

    I have never been in that situation where a bunch of people were entering a bunch of dates very fast, but I do enter dates on my Pre in the "real world" very often and nothing takes me more than a few seconds. I did watch someone this afternoon enter an event in the iPhone and it seemed to take him several seconds and several taps to do it, about the same as what it would take in the Pre.

    Like I said before, I'm not sure what navigation tools would work well with finger taps. It seems to me like the ones we have work fairly fast.

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