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  1. cgk
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    #21  
    [quote=VeeDubb65;1890102]You make a fair point, and I can't give you any examples of "pam pre shockwaves," but let's look at a few of the waves the iphone (acknowledged game changer) created on launch, and on launch of the second version of it.

    Thousands of angry customers who couldn't even activate their phones, in some cases for several days after purchase.
    itunes service outages.
    Clogging of the ATT network to the point where many people couldn't use their iphone for anything but calls.
    300 page bills for heavy users who didn't sign up for electronic billing.
    Even more missing and broken features at the original launch.
    None of this has anything to with if the iphone was a gamechanger, so I'm not sure why you mention it. The iphone was gamechanger because it changed the rulebook on what a phone GUI should look like and also because upto that point, the major companies such as motorola and Nokia saw touchscreen phones as largely gimmicks that would not take off in large numbers. People tend to forget that a significant number of mainstream experts thought that the iphone was going to be a terrible flop and that it would be cancelled after completely failing in the marketplace.


    As I said, right now the Pre is not a game changer. I don't think there's any real argument about that. However, the Pre came out with FEWER problems than the iphone, is already capable of far more than the iphone was this soon after launch, has hardware that will allow it to go farther than the iphone has, and is developing faster than the iphone ever did.
    Again, that's nothing to do with being a gamechanger - it's not the function or form itself in isolation, it's that the introduction of that function or form forces your competition to copy or react to it because it has eroded their competitive advantage.

    The rest of your answer was such a ramble I'm not sure where to start with it.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Not really - a game changer generally has immediate impact, what shockwaves have occurred in the marketplace because of the pre?
    On what basis does a game changer need to have an "immediate impact"?
  3. #23  
    No, not yet, maybe one day, but not yet
  4. cgk
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by phidalgo View Post
    On what basis does a game changer need to have an "immediate impact"?

    Because every example in the telecommunications marketplace has followed that example (except for one notable thing - SMS). Now we could argue that the pre will become a gamechanger later in its life but what would we base that guess on? What does the palm provide or will provide that will force their competition to copy that design, that form, that function or feature?

    People seems to be confusing popular with game changing. Something is game changing when the market adapts to it and it widely influences the direction of innovation or introduces something the competition has to react to. Getting away from the iphone, the StarTAC clearly changed the marketplace by introducing a new form factor - one that is still used widely.

    If the palm app market suddenly tripled in size that would not be a game-changer as some suggest because it would replication of something that has already occurred.

    Where is this game-changing going to come from? More importantly, who is copying those innovations?
    Last edited by CGK; 09/13/2009 at 05:38 AM.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    The rest of your answer was such a ramble I'm not sure where to start with it.
    Well, you might start by reading it.....


    If that's not a good option, let me give you a cliff-notes version that you can respond to.


    You implied that for a product to be a game changer, it must be a game changer from it's inception, and I say you're full of crap.

    I gave you multiple examples, including people and products, that were "game changers" in every sense of the term, yet started out as complete jokes when compared to the competition.






    You and I agree that the Pre is not a game changer. All I'm trying to point out is the logical fallacy of believing that the only time something can become a game changer is the day it's released.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Where is this game-changing going to come from?
    I'm starting to wonder if you're just bashing the Pre in this thread for fun.


    Are you serious? Can you really look at the Palm Pre and not see where game changing could come from?

    Depending on your perspective, the Pre is already a game changer.

    It's the first smart phone to ever be released with this level of features and this few bugs.

    It's the first device in it's class where the dev kit came out to the public before the phone.

    To the best of my knowledge (although I could be wrong), it has a completely unique form factor. hVGA screen, full hardware keyboard, slider.

    Frankly, it could have been the worlds buggiest smartphone, and it still would have been a game changer because it proves that the iphone isn't so bloody unique.

    Same screen resolution
    same motion sensitivity
    same multimedia capabilities (even if the apps still need some work)
    same multi-touch
    same or better web browser
    PLUS the smaller size, full keyboard
    better connectivity


    Personally, I think being a game changer includes it's effect on the market, so all the above isn't 'quite' enough to call it a game changer, but if you don't see the potential, it's because you're so angry at Palm that you're not capable of seeing it.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Where is this game-changing going to come from? More importantly, who is copying those innovations?
    With this statement alone, do I need to go any further?
  8. cgk
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb65 View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if you're just bashing the Pre in this thread for fun.


    Are you serious? Can you really look at the Palm Pre and not see where game changing could come from?

    Depending on your perspective, the Pre is already a game changer.

    It's the first smart phone to ever be released with this level of features and this few bugs.

    It's the first device in it's class where the dev kit came out to the public before the phone.

    To the best of my knowledge (although I could be wrong), it has a completely unique form factor. hVGA screen, full hardware keyboard, slider.

    Frankly, it could have been the worlds buggiest smartphone, and it still would have been a game changer because it proves that the iphone isn't so bloody unique.

    Same screen resolution
    same motion sensitivity
    same multimedia capabilities (even if the apps still need some work)
    same multi-touch
    same or better web browser
    PLUS the smaller size, full keyboard
    better connectivity


    Personally, I think being a game changer includes it's effect on the market, so all the above isn't 'quite' enough to call it a game changer, but if you don't see the potential, it's because you're so angry at Palm that you're not capable of seeing it.
    I'm platform agnostic - I'm interested in information, I'll use a windows mobile, android, iphone, symbian or whatever as long as it is fit for purpose. You'd have to be a sociopath to get angry (and I'd argue cheer-lead as well) at a corporation you have no connection to or stake in.

    I still don't see an answer to the question - at best, you are saying that it's a game-changer because it replicates what other devices do which makes no sense.

    I don't think you understand what the term means, you think it's related to features in isolation. You are listing things but you cannot articulate why they are changing the marketplace.

    It's the first device in it's class where the dev kit came out to the public before the phone.
    OK - let's stick with this - why is this important, what does it change about the marketplace or innovation in this space?
  9. cgk
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by phidalgo View Post
    With this statement alone, do I need to go any further?
    Well what's the answer then? Are people copying the media player? Is the app development model becoming the industry standard for how things should work? Is the price mechanism for apps being widely copied?

    Which specific aspect of the pre is changing how things are done?
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    #30  
    I keep seeing these sort of threads popping up and immediately dismiss them as trolls.
    I'm starting to see that the general sentiment is that all the complainers want the Pre to be the iPhone and I have a simple solution. Sell the Pre, buy the iPhone and let the argument be over with.

    As to the iPhone revolutionizing the GUI of a phone that is a complete and utter joke... icons laid out in a grid on a screen, old and passe. Touch functionality? Every Palm phone for as long as I can remember has had touch.

    To stay on topic, I don't see the Pre as a game changer. I do see WebOS as a game changer sometime in the near future. The main leading proponent being the fact that Palm is willing to work with developers to make the most out of the features available.
  11. cgk
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by acydlord View Post
    To stay on topic, I don't see the Pre as a game changer. I do see WebOS as a game changer sometime in the near future. The main leading proponent being the fact that Palm is willing to work with developers to make the most out of the features available.
    I can see this - I think the big issue is if they can sell enough units to make it worthwhile for developers to concentrate on a 5th OS platform, because without bums on seats, it's hard to do. They also have a problem in that 90% of their sales are in the US so they are boxed into a single marketplace.

    I think the big question they need to answer is if they can be more successful following the iphone model of doing both the hardware and the software or if the OS would be more successful as a licensed product like windows mobile - or a mixture of the two.
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    #32  
    I agree with a lot of what Acy said, however I would call it a game changer because although other phones had integration like features, Pre really put a name on it (synergy) and now most new phones are coming with google and facebook integration functions at launch. I don't recall the previous versions of the iphone being capable of easily syncing with google or facebook.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    You'd have to be a sociopath to get angry (and I'd argue cheer-lead as well) at a corporation you have no connection to or stake in.
    What on earth does this seemingly random comment have to do with this discussion at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    OK - let's stick with this - why is this important, what does it change about the marketplace or innovation in this space?
    Again, I'm flabbergasted that you need this explained to you.

    You say you're platform independent. I can respect that.

    The hardware is great. You can't deny that.

    What that leaves is the applications and customizability. Those are determined by three things:

    1. What the original company gives you.
    2. What 3rd parties can develop for it.

    Let's look at those one at a time.

    1. Palm dropped the ball here. No doubt about it. The phone didn't even have all the basic features that had been promised.

    2. Having a dev kit come out that early on a phone this complex has never happened before. It has the potential to change the way developers look at smartphones, and gives developers the opportunity to change the way consumers look at them as well.




    Now to turn things around a little, how about you explain what would be a "game changer" for you. You keep telling us what it's not, and occasionally giving vague definitions, but how about an example?

    You think up a device/platform/application/whatever that WOULD be a game changer, and tell me all about it.

    Right now it sounds like anything short of a cell phone brain implant wouldn't be a game changer to you.
  14. cgk
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    #34  
    What on earth does this seemingly random comment have to do with this discussion at all?
    Because of your claim that I must be angry at Palm for some reason. I have lots of things I get angry at - the activities of a telecommunications company is not one of them.
  15. cgk
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb65 View Post

    Now to turn things around a little, how about you explain what would be a "game changer" for you. You keep telling us what it's not, and occasionally giving vague definitions, but how about an example?
    Off the top of my head and completely made-up - The pre is launched with with "mypre", it's a personal account where all of your information, music and videos are stored. moreover, all of your settings and custom settings are saved. When you switch to another web os device, you put in your user name and account and instantly, it's got all the settings and apps of your old device.

    This is the key bit - It is so successful that all of the other companies rush to launch their own versions of this software.

    Let's get away from phones for a minute - the introduction of the netbook was a gamechanger because it introduced a low margin low specification device as desirable. Asus (it was asus right?) launched the marketplace and virtually every other producer now producers or is involved in the production of netbooks.

    For me, one of the key criteria for something being game-changing is replication, people have to replicate it because they perceive there is some competitive advantage in doing so. I don't see where the replication is with the pre or with web OS. The nearest I can come up with is the sense UI inteface on a few android phones is a tip of the hat to synergy but that's about it.

    This is why lots of apps suddenly appearing on the pre would not be game-changing, it would simply replicate what has already been done - they would have to provide some added value above and beyond what has already provided.

    Let's try another example - apple is currently launching their cocktail thing - where music you download will come with art, sleeve notes and the like. If people come to see this as standard material they expect with mp3 (and I have no idea if it will become standard or not) then that development can be seen as game-changing.

    I keep coming back to this point, it's not what you do that is game-changing, it is that people copy you and that influences the direction of the marketplace.
  16. #36  
    Cgk to me its a game changer. When I can add to my phone from the homebrew App and customize my phone the way I like that's a game changer to me. That's all I care about, so you keep trolling around and enjoy your stay here @ PREcentral.net
  17. #37  
    No.
    A game changer would mean that the Palm Pre would go beyond other phones by its innovation. Areas where it does are: 1. Bright readable screen. 2. Multiple apps at once 3. Design of phone. 3. Intuitive interface 4. Great looking OS
    Areas where it doesn't: 1. Low battery life 2. No Voice Dial 3. No empty trash folder in email 4. No text forwarding 5. Slow response time 6. Limited apps 7. No memory expansion
  18. cgk
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by mmcnamara43 View Post
    Cgk to me its a game changer. When I can add to my phone from the homebrew App and customize my phone the way I like that's a game changer to me. That's all I care about, so you keep trolling around and enjoy your stay here @ PREcentral.net

    sigh why is it trolling to have this discussion? I'm outlining my position and saying why I think it's not a game changer. If I was just saying "yaboohoo it sucks" you'd have a point.

    Someone having a different view from you is not trolling.
  19. cgk
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by cruscntrl View Post
    No memory expansion
    I'm not sure that's a big thing? I know it is for power-users but for the fat middle of the consumer market, I don't think they care?
  20. #40  
    game changer = best seller?
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