Palm rejects NaNplayer advanced music player for the App Catalog ? - Page 10

KallDrexx · 09/10/2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam1am

The current sideload method for Palm is good, but it's not good enough. I want to be able to browse to a website and install an application from my phone. Outside of Palm's control.

Are you including apps like Preware in your side-loading issues? Honestly, preware is a great program for finding new homebrew and keeping your apps updated.

abegee · 09/10/2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasracer

Errors != syntax errors. Syntax errors are easy to figure out and avoid. Exceptions being throw are kind of difficult to track down, especially if they are swallowed before they can bubble up to you.

very true, since i strated with the webos sdk I'm leraning how to watch my syntax, coming from .net where everything is so easy tought me to be lazy.

Jason Robitaille · 09/10/2009, 03:22 PM

Here's how I realistically see things (plz don't flame me if you disagree, as I see the talks in this thread are getting more and more hostile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam1am

First of all, I'd rather have freedom than "security." If it's a choice between not having an app, and having an app that might break with the next OS update, I'll take the app that might break. That's because I have the freedom to do what I want.

I believe this is what homebrew is for. The average, non-techy, user would just want a phone that works and apps that works securely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam1am

Second, the developer didn't submit to the app store blindly while using an undocmented API. He worked with Palm during the EAP to get the app to a state where it could eventually be approved.

I too was in the Early Access Program. Palm was ceratinly more responsive there, but no where there did they give info on undocumented API. On the contrary, many times they just said "That feature is not supported at the time or the like, so I'm not sure why the EAP is being brought into the argument, other than showing Palm was aware Blubbes was working on an app (something hundreds, if not thousands, were also doing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam1am

Despite Palm's promise of working with him, he got nowhere with them and now you see the aftermath - the app has been rejected and Palm has proven that we can expect more of the same bull(*@#& we've seen from Apple.

What promise. Please, I would like some proof Palm actually promised something. From what's been said so far, the app was declined for use of undocumented API and requiring the com.palm.xxxxx namespace. Both things that are certainly no surprise Palm would object to. Only the officially endorsed/Palm-aided apps get to the com.palm.xxxxx namespace, and it seems a bit unrealistic to expect Palm to change their policy for 1 app.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam1am

I don't want a mobile appliance. I want a mobile computer that I OWN and can do with as I please!

Homebrew FTW

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuq

...

Chuq FTW, seriously, who doesn't love Chuq

PreGame · 09/10/2009, 03:26 PM

http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=1884469

abegee · 09/10/2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Robitaille

Chuq FTW, seriously, who doesn't love Chuq

lol

Blubble · 09/10/2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacherjj

OK, let me put a cool app in the catalog that does something you really like. Oh, while you aren't noticing, I'm also uploading all your contacts and photos taken on your phone to another website. And you instant messages and SMS messages. Oh, yeah, reading your email too.

Palm is still working out the security profiles. I'm better with better safe than sorry. Perhaps you don't have data on your phone you wouldn't mine the whole world seeing. I do.

Don't be ridiculous. It's not like Palm is just going to allow this for any app. They will obviously scrutinize any app that they put in the catalog. I'm sure that if I tried something malicious, the app would never get in and I'd end up in legal trouble.

I spoke with a Palm rep a little while ago and he confirmed that they do allow exceptions for the use of some private APIs. However, they are specifically disallowing these exemptions when it comes to the mediaDB API. It has NOTHING to do with security.

Blubble · 09/10/2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abegee

very true, since i strated with the webos sdk I'm leraning how to watch my syntax, coming from .net where everything is so easy tought me to be lazy.

Try out the Komodo plugin for Mojo. It includes jlint integration which can be helpful in cleaning up your code.

Blubble · 09/10/2009, 03:45 PM

I spoke with a rep from Palm that gave a more detailed explanation of the situation.

First off, he confirmed that Palm does make exceptions for the use of some private APIs on a case by case basis. As I had previously mentioned, this is not special treatment. It is something that Palm has discussed as being available in certain cases.

However, they are specifically not allowing the use of the mediaDB API. They are planning to change the media indexing interface at some point in the future. They won't allow any app to use it until they do so. They are worried about apps breaking due to future updates.

I suggested that it is an easily insurmountable obstacle. For one, there is no reason that the mediaDB couldn't maintain backwards compatibility when they introduce new features. Also, it would not be hard to update a properly written app to work with any updates to the API. In my case, all the mediaDB functionality is encapsulated within a single class that could easily be updated in a matter of hours. It certainly wouldn't be unique or even uncommon for an app to need a patch to work with an OS upgrade on pretty much any platform.

Although they agreed that these are all plausible solutions, they simply won't consider it. I was told to simply wait for them. When I asked for an estimated timeline, I was told "months, not years". They said that they were impressed with the app and that it would challenge their media team. They assured me that it would be accepted at some point. I don't know if that means that they are working on an improved media player or what.

I appreciate their communication and suppose that it offeres a more reasonable explanation on their part, but it remains disappointing. Instead of looking for a solution, they offer excuses and vague promises. It really just sounds like they don't have the resources to do things right, so they are taking a piecemeal approach. In the meantime, developers are not able to develop compelling apps.

Say what you will, but this is a bad showing for Palm.

sam1am · 09/10/2009, 03:53 PM

An interesting response, thanks for posting it here.

I feel like it's worth pointing out that with every major OS upgrade, you get stuff that breaks and is using public APIs. The argument from Palm is way lame.

Dieter Bohn · 09/10/2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuq

We have gotten a lot of feedback about NaNPlayer which is great. We love that people are excited about the application, and that developers are able to be creative on the webOS platform.

We reached out to JC (the developer) and discussed our reasons for not accepting the application at this time, but we also wanted to be open with you about this.

NaNPlayer is using APIs that are currently private because they will change significantly in a future release. Although we aren't able to support the functionality that JC needs right now, we are listening to the community to help prioritize which APIs and features we put into webOS.

Chuq Von Rospach
Palm Developer Community Manager

While we can’t accept NaNPlayer into the App Catalog right now, we are not rejecting it, and we are happy for it to continue life as a homebrew application until we get to the point where we can release public, supportable APIs for the functionality that it requires.

Thanks for your passion, and we can't wait to enable even more fantastic creative applications via an expanded set of public APIs.

Chuq -

Excellent news - and it's even more excellent to have such open, clear, and honest communication about the App Catalog. Thanks!!

nohatter · 09/10/2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubble

They said that they were impressed with the app and that it would challenge their media team.

In other words, they just stole your work.

ttremblay · 09/10/2009, 04:41 PM

Ok can we have NaNPlayer now =D?!

davis.rob · 09/10/2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam1am

I feel like it's worth pointing out that with every major OS upgrade, you get stuff that breaks and is using public APIs. The argument from Palm is way lame.

OMG ! How is Palm protecting their users from an app that they KNOW will later break "lame"?

Suppose they accept the app, it's a huge success and has 20,000 downloads at $20 a pop in the first month. Meanwhile Blubbles genius is recognized and he accepts a job at Apple for a huge salary. Two months later WebOS 1.3 is released ... and guess what ... the app is broken ... 20,000 angry customers. Now *that* is lame!

rc46 · 09/10/2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuq

While we can’t accept NaNPlayer into the App Catalog right now, we are not rejecting it, and we are happy for it to continue life as a homebrew application until we get to the point where we can release public, supportable APIs for the functionality that it requires.

What a class act response from a class act company.

ADGrant · 09/10/2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abegee

very true, since i strated with the webos sdk I'm leraning how to watch my syntax, coming from .net where everything is so easy tought me to be lazy.

Android's Eclipse plugins offer similar features to Visual Studio.NET. You need a fast PC though, its a bit more sluggish.

Blubble · 09/10/2009, 04:51 PM

$20 a pop? Now that would just be greedy. I was thinking less than $5.

But seriously, by selling the app through the catalog, I would be contractually bound to maintain compatibility. If I didn't, Palm could remotely remove the app, refund users and charge me back every penny they paid me. That is not the kind of situation I'd like to be in.

In any case, I've suggested the possibility of offering a free trial version until the relevant APIs are officially released. That seems like a reasonable compromise. Once Palm is assured that the app will continue to be supported, they could start charging for a full version.

Vivix · 09/10/2009, 04:51 PM

Nice to see Palm respond.

burgertime · 09/10/2009, 04:55 PM

This just keeps getting better. I work in product management for a adult toy being developed. I must say that I feel Palm's pain. No matter what they say people are going to accuse them of lying. Perhaps they are, but I can certainly see where they are coming from. Right now on a forum made for the product we are releasing someone is accusing us of delaying it because of legal issues. Which is 100% incorrect. However there is no way to talk the guy into believing us. Just saying, we don't know and it's good to question but cut Palm some slack.

Blubble · 09/10/2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADGrant

Android's Eclipse plugins offer similar features to Visual Studio.NET. You need a fast PC though, its a bit more sluggish.

I recently switched from using Eclipse to Komodo with the Mojo plugin. I've got an i7 beast of PC and I still don't much like the Eclipse solution for Mojo. It is very buggy and is still missing a lot of features.

The jslint integration for the Komodo solution is a lot more strict when it comes to catching errors. In addition to catching syntax errors, it can point out programming mistakes. I am going to try it for a week or so and decide which IDE to stick with, but I am leaning towards the Komodo solution. If that is the case, I will definitely be donating to the creator for his very useful work.

ADGrant · 09/10/2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubble

I appreciate their communication and suppose that it offeres a more reasonable explanation on their part, but it remains disappointing. Instead of looking for a solution, they offer excuses and vague promises. It really just sounds like they don't have the resources to do things right, so they are taking a piecemeal approach. In the meantime, developers are not able to develop compelling apps.

Say what you will, but this is a bad showing for Palm.

Palm clearly does not have the resources that Apple and Google enjoy. I beleive that many of the technical choices they made with WebOS were driven by concerns with 'Time to Market' and resource constraints.

I don't think WebOS will end up as the platform with the most compelling apps but I expect that the APIs and development tools will improve with time.

09/10/2009, 03:26 PM	#184 (permalink)
PreGame Pre Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 550 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 24 Thanked 793 Times in 81 Posts	http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=1884469 __________________ MyFlashlight - The Original Palm Pre Flashlight Application fileCoaster - The Original On Pre Application Installer Donations are greatly appreciated and can be donated HERE!. Again thank you ALL for your continued support! Follow us on Twitter @vertigoapps
	Liked by Thanked by hparsons, Jason Robitaille

09/10/2009, 03:45 PM	#188 (permalink)
Blubble Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Silicon Valley, California Posts: 1,025 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 37 Thanked 444 Times in 161 Posts	I spoke with a rep from Palm that gave a more detailed explanation of the situation. First off, he confirmed that Palm does make exceptions for the use of some private APIs on a case by case basis. As I had previously mentioned, this is not special treatment. It is something that Palm has discussed as being available in certain cases. However, they are specifically not allowing the use of the mediaDB API. They are planning to change the media indexing interface at some point in the future. They won't allow any app to use it until they do so. They are worried about apps breaking due to future updates. I suggested that it is an easily insurmountable obstacle. For one, there is no reason that the mediaDB couldn't maintain backwards compatibility when they introduce new features. Also, it would not be hard to update a properly written app to work with any updates to the API. In my case, all the mediaDB functionality is encapsulated within a single class that could easily be updated in a matter of hours. It certainly wouldn't be unique or even uncommon for an app to need a patch to work with an OS upgrade on pretty much any platform. Although they agreed that these are all plausible solutions, they simply won't consider it. I was told to simply wait for them. When I asked for an estimated timeline, I was told "months, not years". They said that they were impressed with the app and that it would challenge their media team. They assured me that it would be accepted at some point. I don't know if that means that they are working on an improved media player or what. I appreciate their communication and suppose that it offeres a more reasonable explanation on their part, but it remains disappointing. Instead of looking for a solution, they offer excuses and vague promises. It really just sounds like they don't have the resources to do things right, so they are taking a piecemeal approach. In the meantime, developers are not able to develop compelling apps. Say what you will, but this is a bad showing for Palm.
	Liked by Thanked by Complex Pants, hammysink

09/10/2009, 03:53 PM	#189 (permalink)
sam1am Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The SLC Posts: 177 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 24 Thanked 79 Times in 24 Posts	An interesting response, thanks for posting it here. I feel like it's worth pointing out that with every major OS upgrade, you get stuff that breaks and is using public APIs. The argument from Palm is way lame.
	Liked by

09/10/2009, 04:41 PM	#192 (permalink)
ttremblay Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Diego Posts: 164 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 4 Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts	Ok can we have NaNPlayer now =D?!
	Liked by

09/10/2009, 04:51 PM	#196 (permalink)
Blubble Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Silicon Valley, California Posts: 1,025 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 37 Thanked 444 Times in 161 Posts	$20 a pop? Now that would just be greedy. I was thinking less than $5. But seriously, by selling the app through the catalog, I would be contractually bound to maintain compatibility. If I didn't, Palm could remotely remove the app, refund users and charge me back every penny they paid me. That is not the kind of situation I'd like to be in. In any case, I've suggested the possibility of offering a free trial version until the relevant APIs are officially released. That seems like a reasonable compromise. Once Palm is assured that the app will continue to be supported, they could start charging for a full version.
	Liked by Thanked by demian_9, DKatman

09/10/2009, 04:51 PM	#197 (permalink)
Vivix Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 26 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Nice to see Palm respond.
	Liked by

09/10/2009, 04:55 PM	#198 (permalink)
burgertime Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 19 Likes Received: 0 Thanks: 1 Thanked 16 Times in 2 Posts	This just keeps getting better. I work in product management for a adult toy being developed. I must say that I feel Palm's pain. No matter what they say people are going to accuse them of lying. Perhaps they are, but I can certainly see where they are coming from. Right now on a forum made for the product we are releasing someone is accusing us of delaying it because of legal issues. Which is 100% incorrect. However there is no way to talk the guy into believing us. Just saying, we don't know and it's good to question but cut Palm some slack.
	Liked by

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