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  1. solarus's Avatar
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    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Look at some of these deluded fan boys. Apple is responsible for everything being wrong in their miserable world.
    I'm not deluded nor a fan***, I just recognize that Apple have tremendous leverage over AT&T when it comes to negotiating an exclusivity contract. If you don't recognize that then you're seriously deluded and don't have a clue about business. Sure AT&T have more phones to offer, but the iPhone is, by orders of magnitude, responsible for much of AT&T's growth (including their growing pains).

    Controlling your own destiny and obtaining leverage over suppliers and partners is a huge part of being a successful business so its no big stretch of the imagination to think that Apple would utilize their leverage in the most recent negotiations with AT&T over exclusivity. And if you ask me, AT&T's lack of significant new phones in the last two years (hmmm lets see, yup The Bold is about it) seems to indicate that Apple have used their leverage over AT&T quite effectively. And before you say that could never happen I'll point you to another example of abuse of leverage - Microsoft using its leverage over PC manufacturers to get them not to offer pre-installed competitive browsers.

    BTW, I'm perfectly happy with my PC, my Palm, and my iPod Touch thank you very much Yep I'm a crazy fan***!!!!!
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    Here is the fact:

    AT&T uses 1.9ghz for a majority of its HSDPA network.

    AT&T HSDPA: on which frequency band? in Southern US Wireless Forum at WirelessAdvisor.com Forums

    Cellular Maps.com-AT&T 850 vs. 1900 MHz Coverage

    If I'm not mistaken, VZ and Sprint also use similar if not the same frequencies.

    I think the frequency argument is pretty moot.
    No it's not. I may not get HSDPA service in a building, but the 850 coverage (even at edge) means I can get phone calls and emails when I am in a building with AT&T that is completely out of service with Sprint. It is far better to get lower data speeds and reliable coverage indoors than being fast everywhere by losing all service inside.

    The logic of your argument says the frequency advantage doesn't help me for HSDPA, but ignores that I can keep getting voice service and EDGE with the AT&T network, and no service with Sprint.

    Which reminds me, with AT&T I can talk and use data at the same time, whereas with Sprint I miss phone calls if I am doing a download or streaming a bunch of music. Not so with UMTS. The more you use data (easy with a Pre), the more your voice service is impacted by it on both Sprint and VZ. That's not a problem with AT&T.
  3. Adjei's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    Plenty of MP3 players, do I seriously need to list them for you? Are you incapable of your own research? Are you that ignorant that you weren't aware of that before this conversation? I guess it'd go hand in hand with your posting, I don't know why I'd expect more from you.

    Heres an old list to get you started, since I know you won't search.

    iTunes for Mac OS X: Compatible Players

    Apple never blocked anyone else from syncing iTunes until the Pre, you can take that one to the bank.

    Apple put the 18 on the WWDC list to belittle Palm, plain and simple.
    Nonsense, none of those mp3 players are being manufactured. They were able to sync in the beginning of when itunes was made but Apple decided to stop letting other mp3 players sync with itunes and only support their devices. You can still sync those mp3 players if you still have them. So other mp3 players and phones besides those ones were not able to sync with itunes. This is why respectable companies like RIM and Nokia created their own programs to sync with itunes. This had nothing to do with Palm. The only reason people even began to talk about it is because no respectable company was resorting to putting hacks in their products and using other people vendor ids in order to sync with a company's software product and advertise hacks on their website.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesm View Post
    No it's not. I may not get HSDPA service in a building, but the 850 coverage (even at edge) means I can get phone calls and emails when I am in a building with AT&T that is completely out of service with Sprint. It is far better to get lower data speeds and reliable coverage indoors than being fast everywhere by losing all service inside.

    The logic of your argument says the frequency advantage doesn't help me for HSDPA, but ignores that I can keep getting voice service and EDGE with the AT&T network, and no service with Sprint.

    Which reminds me, with AT&T I can talk and use data at the same time, whereas with Sprint I miss phone calls if I am doing a download or streaming a bunch of music. Not so with UMTS. The more you use data (easy with a Pre), the more your voice service is impacted by it on both Sprint and VZ. That's not a problem with AT&T.
    Sprint has lower frequency data as well, ever heard of 1XRTT? It's 800mhz, and allows for exactly what you're talking about. Sorry that signal is spotty, but it's not a frequency issue. One of my coworkers tried to play that argument on me as well, and I started doing the research, and found that all US providers use the same frequency bands for the same things.
  5. ianmedina's Avatar
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    #65  
    I left AT&T because of their costly service plans. I'll stick with Sprint as long as everyone else is more expensive.
  6. Adjei's Avatar
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    I'm not deluded nor a fan***, I just recognize that Apple have tremendous leverage over AT&T when it comes to negotiating an exclusivity contract. If you don't recognize that then you're seriously deluded and don't have a clue about business. Sure AT&T have more phones to offer, but the iPhone is, by orders of magnitude, responsible for much of AT&T's growth (including their growing pains).

    Controlling your own destiny and obtaining leverage over suppliers and partners is a huge part of being a successful business so its no big stretch of the imagination to think that Apple would utilize their leverage in the most recent negotiations with AT&T over exclusivity. And if you ask me, AT&T's lack of significant new phones in the last two years (hmmm lets see, yup The Bold is about it) seems to indicate that Apple have used their leverage over AT&T quite effectively. And before you say that could never happen I'll point you to another example of abuse of leverage - Microsoft using its leverage over PC manufacturers to get them not to offer pre-installed competitive browsers.

    BTW, I'm perfectly happy with my PC, my Palm, and my iPod Touch thank you very much Yep I'm a crazy fan***!!!!!
    You are deluded, you are just here talking out your *** about things you don't know and have no knowledge about. You are accusing a company of colluding with another in order to prevent competing devices to operate on their network which is a serious offence that the American government will be looking into if it was true or maybe it's just fan boy talk because of the Apple hate on this forum. You have no proof whatsoever. Microsoft was convicted of doing what they did, you have no proof that Apple and AT&T are doing anything whatsover. How can a company who just started making phones 2 years ago develop so much leverage to dictate to the 2nd largest carrier in the US on what phones to carry. AT&T keeps adding other smartphone besides the iphone all the time but I guess its better to keep our heads in the sand, ain't it.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    You are deluded, you are just here talking out your *** about things you don't know and have no knowledge about. You are accusing a company of colluding with another in order to prevent competing devices to operate on their network which is a serious offence that the American government will be looking into if it was true or maybe it's just fan boy talk because of the Apple hate on this forum. You have no proof whatsoever. AT&T keeps adding other smartphone besides the iphone all the time but I guess its better to keep our heads in the sand, ain't it.
    Prove it wrong. AT&T's actions have already proven my point.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    You are deluded, you are just here talking out your *** about things you don't know and have no knowledge about. You are accusing a company of colluding with another in order to prevent competing devices to operate on their network which is a serious offence that the American government will be looking into if it was true or maybe it's just fan boy talk because of the Apple hate on this forum. You have no proof whatsoever. Microsoft was convicted of doing what they did, you have no proof that Apple and AT&T are doing anything whatsover. How can a company who just started making phones 2 years ago develop so much leverage to dictate to the 2nd largest carrier in the US on what phones to carry. AT&T keeps adding other smartphone besides the iphone all the time but I guess its better to keep our heads in the sand, ain't it.
    Actually, I'll go ahead and prove you wrong.

    The Cell Carriers’ Worst Nightmare: FCC Investigation Of Handset Deals – 24/7 Wall St.

    The partnerships between handset companies and cellular carriers in the US are too good to be true. The FCC has discovered that and the wireless industry may never be the same again.

    AT&T (T) has derived tremendous benefits from its exclusive sales arrangement with Apple (AAPL) to sell the iPhone in the US. The telephone company regularly talks about how well the deal works in helping it get new customers and subscribers who used to do business with AT&T Wireless competitors.

    The government has even expressed some concerns that a Google (GOOG) voice application was blocked from Apple’s site for iPhone software downloads. Some analysts thought that the Google product would undermine AT&T’s wireless subscription revenue. Apple may be overly zealous in protecting its partner.

    Sprint (S) has indicated that its exclusive deal with Palm (PALM) to distribute the new Pre has helped sales at the No.3 US cellular carrier. It is that kind of information that troubled the FCC. The agency has announced that it will hold a meeting on August 27 to discuss exclusive deals between carriers and handset companies. The FCC wants to determine whether customers are hurt by paying the price that the iPhone costs at AT&T and whether that cost would be as high if the same product was available through more than one carrier. The FCC is also curious about whether the Palm deal with Sprint and the Apple deal with AT&T keeps smaller companies with alternate handset products from making it to market with their inventions.

    It is far too early to say how the FCC hearings will play out, but that should not keep analysts from making educated guesses. The government is ever looking for monopolies. AT&T found that out in 1984 when the Department of Justice prevailed in getting the phone company broken into pieces. Microsoft (MSFT) has faced harsh penalties for creating businesses identified as monopolies. Lawyers who follow the internet industry believe that Google’s 70% share of the US search business could draw scrutiny.

    The FCC hearings next week are bound to be part of a painful process for the big American cellular carriers and, if history is any indication, the process is going to be a very long one.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/techn...55I3YP20090619

    The issue of exclusive agreements among some of the biggest companies like Apple Inc's iPhone and service provider AT&T Inc is at the center of some lawmakers' concerns about whether such practices hinder competition and innovation.
  9. Adjei's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    Prove it wrong. AT&T's actions have already proven my point.
    So you have proof that Apple and AT&T have colluded to prevent competing phones from their network? This is a serious federal offense. Where is your proof that any of this transpired? And no, what you presented is not proof! AT&T carries a variety of phones and smartphones besides the iphone but I guess its better to keep sticking your head further into the sand.
  10. Adjei's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    This is proof that Apple and AT&T have colluded to deny competing smartphone platforms from the AT&T network?
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    Sprint has lower frequency data as well, ever heard of 1XRTT? It's 800mhz, and allows for exactly what you're talking about. Sorry that signal is spotty, but it's not a frequency issue. One of my coworkers tried to play that argument on me as well, and I started doing the research, and found that all US providers use the same frequency bands for the same things.
    Sorry, all of that spectrum is tied up with the Nextel/Boost iDen service. They have NO 1xRTT network deployed at 800, and can't until they turn off the iDen service. Even at that point, the Pre and every other CDMA handset from Sprint is useless for that band because they have no radio that operates there (because there is no CDMA network there). Their handsets DO have 850 MHZ coverage for roaming with VZ, but the RFIC's in all these handsets do not go down into the 800 Mhz band. Only iDen handsets talk down there.

    So, your claim about 1x RTT down there is invalid.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    This is proof that Apple and AT&T have colluded to deny competing smartphone platforms from the AT&T network?
    You've got no argument. I've stated my case, many times, and you have nothing. Kindly exit the thread.
  13. Adjei's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    You've got no argument. I've stated my case, many times, and you have nothing. Kindly exit the thread.
    Thought so, you have no proof whatsoever. Just talking a whole bunch of nonsense.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesm View Post
    Sorry, all of that spectrum is tied up with the Nextel/Boost iDen service. They have NO 1xRTT network deployed at 800, and can't until they turn off the iDen service. Even at that point, the Pre and every other CDMA handset from Sprint is useless for that band because they have no radio that operates there (because there is no CDMA network there). Their handsets DO have 850 MHZ coverage for roaming with VZ, but the RFIC's in all these handsets do not go down into the 800 Mhz band. Only iDen handsets talk down there.

    So, your claim about 1x RTT down there is invalid.
    so...when I'm getting 1x its on the same freq. As when I'm getting EVDO?
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesm View Post
    Sorry, all of that spectrum is tied up with the Nextel/Boost iDen service. They have NO 1xRTT network deployed at 800, and can't until they turn off the iDen service. Even at that point, the Pre and every other CDMA handset from Sprint is useless for that band because they have no radio that operates there (because there is no CDMA network there). Their handsets DO have 850 MHZ coverage for roaming with VZ, but the RFIC's in all these handsets do not go down into the 800 Mhz band. Only iDen handsets talk down there.

    So, your claim about 1x RTT down there is invalid.
    Palm Pre (Phone Arena)

    Specifically mentions 800mhz, as does Palm specifically mention it being a dual band phone. From the Sprint Nextel wiki:

    The Sprint PCS network operates a combination 2G & 3G wireless network, using the 1xRTT/EVDO standard, which is part of the Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) standard.
    Sprint Nextel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also, if you still don't have data, turn on data roaming, then you can use Verizon's data network, it really is a moot point.
    Last edited by Elysian893; 10/12/2009 at 04:28 PM.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    so...when I'm getting 1x its on the same freq. As when I'm getting EVDO?
    Wouldn't make a lot of sense would it? Nor would it make a lot of sense to be able to turn the 1900mhz data radio off, if you're still using 1900mhz you're not saving power are you? He's incorrect fortunately.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    so...when I'm getting 1x its on the same freq. As when I'm getting EVDO?
    Yes. When your C/I is unable to support an EVDO connection, the network will revert to 1X coverage. When you can't get 1X, it will try and roam to any VZ carrier available.

    If you put the phone into a diagnostic mode, you find out what frequency the phone is operating at, and what signal strength is present. If the phone says it's in CDMA 850 mode, then it's roaming on VZ, regardless of whether or not the display has an "R" lit up.

    Sprint has no spectrum holdings in the 850 band. AT*T and VZ (becaise of their acquisition of GTE) are the only licensees of 850 Spectrum in the US> It was given to them by the FCC in the 80's - they didn't even pay for it at auction.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    Palm Pre (Phone Arena)

    Specifically mentions 800mhz, as does Palm specifically mention it being a dual band phone. From the Sprint Nextel wiki:



    Sprint Nextel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also, if you still don't have data, turn on data roaming, then you can use Verizon's data network, it really is a moot point.
    Sigh. 800 Mhz and 850 Mhz are different bands. Handsets built for one cannot talk to the other, even if a compatible network were there.

    If you look at the FCC filings for the Pre here: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...uestTimeout=30, you can see it supports operation in the 824-848 band.

    If you look at an iDen phone like the i776, you can see the frequncy coverage from fcc filings here: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/...uestTimeout=30, you see it supports operations in the 806-825 band.

    These are completely different bands, and the FCC filings show the devices have no overlap. No CDMA phone supports CDMA operation in the 806-825 band that Sprint has spectrum allocated in, and is used exclusively for iDen service (along with some SMR and public safety users).
  19. solarus's Avatar
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    You are deluded, you are just here talking out your *** about things you don't know and have no knowledge about. You are accusing a company of colluding with another in order to prevent competing devices to operate on their network which is a serious offence that the American government will be looking into if it was true or maybe it's just fan boy talk because of the Apple hate on this forum. You have no proof whatsoever. Microsoft was convicted of doing what they did, you have no proof that Apple and AT&T are doing anything whatsover. How can a company who just started making phones 2 years ago develop so much leverage to dictate to the 2nd largest carrier in the US on what phones to carry. AT&T keeps adding other smartphone besides the iphone all the time but I guess its better to keep our heads in the sand, ain't it.
    Can you even read. I never said Apple actively colluded with AT&T and I never said Apple have abused its leverage - I simply said I wouldn't be surprised if they have. You talk about new phones at AT&T and yes there are more smart phones around now than 2 years ago but as of today the BB Bold is the only significant new smart phone AT&T have adopted since the iPhone's initial release. Its not evidence of any wrong doing but it is the kind of thing that makes you go hmmmm.

    Besides, Apple don't even have to say anything to AT&T or actively threaten them in negotiations. A few rumors about Verizon negotiations takes care of that. Apple don't even have to be responsible for the rumors so I'm not accusing them of this. AT&T needs the iPhone a heck of a lot more than Apple needs AT&T. If you don't recognize this simple fact and if you don't think Apple have, at the very least, legally used this to their advantage then you are very very naive.

    Remember Microsoft had to get caught first before being convicted. Nobody knew if they were breaking the law until an investigation was conducted. I'm not and have never stated that I'm offering proof but given AT&T's lack of advanced new smart phones in the last 2 years (sorry WinMo 6.0/6.1 phones don't really count) and the FCC's ongoing investigation into wireless exclusivity contracts, an investigation that was by the way sparked by Apple's contract with AT&T, then all I am saying it that something could be rotten in the state of Denmark.

    I find it mildly ironic that anyone criticizing Apple, Palm, Microsoft, Blackberry, Nokia, etc... - take your pick - is immediately called a fan*** usually by people who can't seem to admit that the company in question can do anything wrong.
  20. Adjei's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    Can you even read. I never said Apple actively colluded with AT&T and I never said Apple have abused its leverage - I simply said I wouldn't be surprised if they have. You talk about new phones at AT&T and yes there are more smart phones around now than 2 years ago but as of today the BB Bold is the only significant new smart phone AT&T have adopted since the iPhone's initial release. Its not evidence of any wrong doing but it is the kind of thing that makes you go hmmmm.

    Besides, Apple don't even have to say anything to AT&T or actively threaten them in negotiations. A few rumors about Verizon negotiations takes care of that. Apple don't even have to be responsible for the rumors so I'm not accusing them of this. AT&T needs the iPhone a heck of a lot more than Apple needs AT&T. If you don't recognize this simple fact and if you don't think Apple have, at the very least, legally used this to their advantage then you are very very naive.

    Remember Microsoft had to get caught first before being convicted. Nobody knew if they were breaking the law until an investigation was conducted. I'm not and have never stated that I'm offering proof but given AT&T's lack of advanced new smart phones in the last 2 years (sorry WinMo 6.0/6.1 phones don't really count) and the FCC's ongoing investigation into wireless exclusivity contracts, an investigation that was by the way sparked by Apple's contract with AT&T, then all I am saying it that something could be rotten in the state of Denmark.

    I find it mildly ironic that anyone criticizing Apple, Palm, Microsoft, Blackberry, Nokia, etc... - take your pick - is immediately called a fan*** usually by people who can't seem to admit that the company in question can do anything wrong.
    In other words, you have no ounce of proof. It's funny how in Apple in 2 and half years went from a company who have never made a phone before to now being accused of determining which phones the second biggest carrier in the whole of America decides to sell. I guess it shows how successful they actually are, the more successful you, the more hate and disdain you receive.
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