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  1. s219's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    ADGrant, the iPod is the ONLY app that an iPhone will multitask. The iPhone ONLY supports real-time wireless sync of calendar, contacts and mail if you pay Apple an extra $100 a year for MobileMe (or use a combination of beta Google Sync and buggy GPush, which in turn occupy your Exchange sync connection so you can't sync your work email). These are deficiencies, not strengths.
    As noted, you are incorrect, it does multi-task the core apps. I think I counted as many as 6 running at once (and it can be way more than that if you want to count web apps running in Safari's multiple windows -- which is only fair given the Pre's current capability is heavily based on web apps and being tied to the cloud).

    What the Pre does over the iPhone is let *any* app multi-task and give you the illusion that they are all on a unified desktop. And the Pre switches between apps more nicely -- the iPhone's means of switching between apps using the home button is not nearly as slick as flipping cards.

    However, we need to bear in mind that the Pre currently doesn't have any real heavy duty apps right now. Were the device capable of running something like a fast paced 3D game, Pre users will soon discover why limited multi-tasking makes sense and why Apple has so far not let third party apps do it. I would not be surprised if a future rev lets the iPhone 3GS keep third party apps running, as it has more than enough RAM to do it (this was the primary issue on earlier iPhones).
  2. s219's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    Apple products have long been status symbols as much as utilitarian devices -- like an Audi, a way of advertising that you are a consumer of wealth and taste. As long as they deliver a forward-thinking, superior experience, they can get away with that.

    But this is a recessionary environment, where overpaying isn't necessarily cool anymore. And instead of moving forward into the cloud, Apple refuses to cut the USB cord lest it cut into their computer sales. And dangerously for a company so heavily dependent on the visual-arts crowd, their UI looks positively dated compared to the Pre's.
    In case you hadn't noticed, Apple is pretty much the only big hardware/software company that is actually seeing business growth in these economic times. Their core strategy is somewhat economy-proof if you really look at the details, and I think this was a good strategy for them. They understand their customers well.

    The look of the UI is clearly subjective -- I look at the sluggish laggy interface of the Pre and come to the opposite conclusion. Eye candy is not great when it's slow and lacks smooth operation.


    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    Had the Pre come out of the gate with hardware that didn't feel flimsy, and battery capacity and graphics rendering speed that matched the 3GS instead of the 3G, and a strong app catalog, we would be having an entirely different conversation right now. But those things can easily be fixed over the medium term (enable hardware graphics acceleration, use a 1320 mah battery, ramp up the app catalog) or the short term (drop the price to $99). Because Synergy and WebOS move the ball forward, some analysts, like some posters here, see Palm's longer-term prospects as rosy.

    I don't have rose-colored glasses on -- I originally posted in this thread because I was fixin' to return my Pre and get an iPhone for what it offers NOW, as opposed to in the future. An iPhone is more fun now, if you like downloading games; it gives you enough storage space that you really don't need a separate iPod (if you buy a 32g version); and it's easier to find accessories to enable seamless car integration. If you have the dough and you want your goodies now, rather than later, why not.

    But if Palm is bought by someone with the money to move faster and market harder, then the innate advantages of its WebOS and Synergy, teamed with Palm's focus on maintaining a cool look-and-feel, have a real chance of changing the conversation, and soon. To me, an iPhone now is a stopgap; the real excitement comes with the next-generation Pre.
    I think your glasses are a deep shade of rose right now.

    First of all, the Pre's graphics performance lags that of my first generation iPhone, it's not just bad compared to the new fast 3GS. A lack of OpenGL can make even the fastest new hardware downright poky compared to ancient hardware that is using graphics acceleration.

    You have quite a to-do list of things Palm (or their buyer) needs to do to take their device to a June 2009 level of technology where it would have been competitive with the iPhone. Yeah sure, they can fix some things over the medium term, but I am pretty sure graphics acceleration is at least a year off (the technology needed to let javascript talk to the GPU won't even have "specs" until 2010). And while Palm is playing catchup, companies like Apple are moving towards the next big revision. By the time Palm gets to an honest competitive 1.0 device, Apple will likely be releasing their 4.0 device.

    You are making the mistake of underestimating what Apple has up its sleeve. That is a fatal mistake many of their competitors make over and over again. I guarantee you they are not standing still while Palm works through their to-do list...

    I agree that the webOS has potential, and could have been remarkable. But if you have to say "those things can easily be fixed" about what is ostensibly Palm's best hardware/software effort in many years, I think that says it all. They blew it out of the gate, and the rest will be catchup from here on out. It doesn't matter if it could have been done better -- it wasn't.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    Google exchange syncs works very well on the Iphone I used it before I bought my Pre.

    On the multi tasking, you are full of crap. The Iphone multi tasks all of its core functions, Text, phone, browser, email and Ipod as of 3.0. Prior to 3.0 the browser wasn't included it is now.

    Meaning you can type a response on Precentral, home key, text message, home, safari and your reply is still there waiting to hit submit.

    Get your facts straight before you spout garbage.
    Multitasking is the simultaneous performance of two or more tasks. I looked it up. ;-)

    So if Pandora is playing music for you WHILE you are playing a game WHILE a file is downloading for you on the web, then you're multitasking. If your device STOPS doing any of these when you switch from one app to another, then it is NOT multitasking.

    If it remembers where you left off last time you had an application open, then that's cute and useful, but it's not multitasking.

    Yep, core functions multitask on the iPhone -- they did on my $50 LG, too -- but what I was trying to refer to was apps. To my mind the iPod is an app, but you're right to think of it more as a core function.

    I'm glad Google Sync worked for you, 'cause I'm going to be trying it on the iPhone soon. My understanding is that Google Sync uses your Exchange connection, so you can't use it for something else (like work email), so that won't be a long-term solution for me. If you know otherwise, please let me know.

    I apologize if I was unclear -- let's keep it civil.
    Last edited by friedputty; 08/29/2009 at 05:41 PM.
  4. #44  
    fredputty If I had an iPhone or planed to buy one, the work exchange email problem wouldn't affect me, I carry a Blackberry for that like much of corporate
    America.

    Your discussions about the cost of cloud computing with the iPhone are equally applicable to the Pre. The only free option is google on both cases and incidently its also available on the Blackberry. I am not that impressed with it on the Pre BTW.

    Finally carrier costs aren't really relevent since hopefully the Pre will be available from other cellphone carriers.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    Indeed. In the long term, this is why A WebOS will succeed and a IPhone OS will fail.
    As the cliche goes - in the long term we will all be dead. Palm might die even sooner since they lack the scale/resources to ramp up features aggressively and they also lack the marketing expertise (imho) to stand out from all the noise generated by Apple, Rim, Nokia, Android, and even Microsoft.

    I'm not saying it's impossible. just that it's a tough task for a company with less than 2k employees.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Your discussions about the cost of cloud computing with the iPhone are equally applicable to the Pre...

    Finally carrier costs aren't really relevent since hopefully the Pre will be available from other cellphone carriers.
    How is the "cost of cloud computing equally applicable to the Pre"?

    1. AT&T charges you extra to sync to Exchange, Sprint doesn't.
    2. Apple charges you extra to use MobileMe; Palm gives you its OTA calendar and contacts sync and push gmail functionality for free.

    The cost is miles from being equal, and that's my point -- Palm is offering cloud computing at a better value.

    Similarly, how are carrier costs not relevant? Sprint offers the best value pricing in the industry -- vs. AT&T's iPhone service pricing, you can save a grand or more over the life of your contract, depending on how you use the phone.

    I just picked up my iPhone 3GS recently, and there are plenty of reasons that it is the official One To Beat. I've been stalling on taking the Pre back... it finally goes back tomorrow. But in many respects the Pre makes the iPhone feel dated --- and that's according not just to me, but to several AT&T store employees who wanted to handle and play with the Pre. "This is what the iPhone will be like in two years," said one. The Palm is a future-focused product with value-focused pricing, and that is a very rare combination indeed.

    Sheesh, people. I've got both of them in front of me. The Pre is better than you give it credit for, the iPhone isn't as good as you give it credit for, but they're both damn good handsets, and nobody should regret buying either one.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    Multitasking is the simultaneous performance of two or more tasks. I looked it up. ;-)

    So if Pandora is playing music for you WHILE you are playing a game WHILE a file is downloading for you on the web, then you're multitasking. If your device STOPS doing any of these when you switch from one app to another, then it is NOT multitasking.

    If it remembers where you left off last time you had an application open, then that's cute and useful, but it's not multitasking.
    I'm seeing some incorrect what i guess are assumptions.

    On the iphone: email, safari, ipod all do what you would say is true multitasking. Example: Go to safari, punch in precentral, hit home, email, start an email, hit home, hit safari, page has loaded up and shows..no reloading, copy n paste, hit home, hit email, half finished email shows up, paste, send. All while listening to music if you're into that.

    True, you don't see a card for an app when switching, but that's simply visual. On any phone, you are in one active app at a time. On the Pre, you can swipe to another app, on the iphone, you do some tapping. It's just different ways of navigating.

    The iphone doesn't multitask in any official way..3rd party apps. This is the real distinction. You can jailbreak and get backgrounder and play pandora in background. Just as you can root your Pre for a great MyTether app.

    Apple's OS is still on a journey as they continue to put out thoughtfully spaced out features in. No doubt in my mind that multitasking to an extent will be next year's theme. Just as people expect audio/visual features from Palm. We know both devices are more than capable of doing either.

    One other thing sticks out here. I'm a CPA. I consult small businesses and help them maximize income. Sure you can have goals of 100% satisfied customers and try to be nice to all of them, but your first goal should be revenue. Don't work for free. Outsource if it benefits you.

    Apple is just a machine. You talked about the cloud? Apple doesn't care about google. Apple wants you on their MobileMe cloud. Does it cost you? Sure it does. Does google cost you? Only if watching ads is tolerable to you.

    Apple wants you on itunes, buying music, media, etc through them. They want you in their eco system. And they have revenue streams coming in from all corners.

    Palm? Amazon for on device music. Itunes for desktop music mgmt/purchase. Google for the cloud (or exchange..but that's MS). 3rd party for desktop/wifi syncing. 3rd party for podcast app. 3rd party for tethering (low blow tho). 3rd party for <insert your feature>.

    Outsourcing can be beneficial. Palm doesn't have to run or set up and incur the costs. Problem is they have little control over what google does or what amazon does. And certainly no control over apple changing itunes to not work with Pre. The experience also isn't that seamless. Finally, Palm isn't making hardly any money out of this. They're going the app store route, but that will take time to break even from.

    As someone who sold palm stock after holding it almost a year, I'm concerned they can't make a profit. I see too many missed opportunities. I see Apple and so many revenue streams coming in off their eco system. I see a lot of costs trying to start from zero and manufacture for so many different carriers without a solid foundation in place such as app store, mgmt apps, ways to acquire media, etc. It doesn't leave much for operating cash.

    They're letting and encouraging their customers to use Itunes for crying out loud and are NOT MAKING A DIME off of it while feeding Apple. Palm, partner up already with someone else, develop your sync app and get that revenue stream going.

    Palm provides a backup service. They don't charge for it. Throw in something like iDisk, some kind of enhanced backup or features, and charge away.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    How is the "cost of cloud computing equally applicable to the Pre"?

    1. AT&T charges you extra to sync to Exchange, Sprint doesn't.
    2. Apple charges you extra to use MobileMe; Palm gives you its OTA calendar and contacts sync and push gmail functionality for free.

    The cost is miles from being equal, and that's my point -- Palm is offering cloud computing at a better value.

    Similarly, how are carrier costs not relevant? Sprint offers the best value pricing in the industry -- vs. AT&T's iPhone service pricing, you can save a grand or more over the life of your contract, depending on how you use the phone.
    AT&T charges for exchange sync? That's news to me. How do they even know you are using exchange. Are you sure you aren't confusing exchange with BES.

    Carrier costs are relevant because the Pre will hopefully be available on all carriers and some of us will not switch to Sprint.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I disagree that Apple is moving at any breathtaking speed. 1.0 set the stage..boasting killer webbrowser, touch interface, and video ipod thrown in. Webapps were a joke. A year later (2.0) saw the app store. Full of bugs, it took much time to get stable. Crashed all the time, dropped calls all the time. 3.0 added some standard features and fleshed it out a bit more. But it wasn't a picnic the whole way.

    Multi-hour syncing..i avoided plugging it into itunes unless i really had to. Lag on the device..start typing, see it a few seconds later, etc.
    Yeah, people always forget this. I never bash the iPhone because I could care less what's better and blah blah blah. However, I still can't stand when people talk about iPhone like it's the greatest thing every created and bash everything else when, in fact, it was extremely buggy and had a high return rate at it's infancy. It's reminiscent of the whole XP is better than Vista thing. XP is a great OS that had about as rough a start as Vista did. Technology must be given the time to mature. The only difference here is that Palm doesn't have the luxury of time. Palm must move quickly. Rather than debating whether or not the Pre can hold its own in some competition with the iPhone, the true debate should be whether or not Palm is moving quickly enough to ensure that it exists in a year or less.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I'm seeing some incorrect what i guess are assumptions.

    On the iphone: email, safari, ipod all do what you would say is true multitasking. Example: Go to safari, punch in precentral, hit home, email, start an email, hit home, hit safari, page has loaded up and shows..no reloading, copy n paste, hit home, hit email, half finished email shows up, paste, send. All while listening to music if you're into that.

    True, you don't see a card for an app when switching, but that's simply visual. On any phone, you are in one active app at a time. On the Pre, you can swipe to another app, on the iphone, you do some tapping. It's just different ways of navigating.

    The iphone doesn't multitask in any official way..3rd party apps. This is the real distinction. You can jailbreak and get backgrounder and play pandora in background. Just as you can root your Pre for a great MyTether app.

    Apple's OS is still on a journey as they continue to put out thoughtfully spaced out features in. No doubt in my mind that multitasking to an extent will be next year's theme. Just as people expect audio/visual features from Palm. We know both devices are more than capable of doing either.

    One other thing sticks out here. I'm a CPA. I consult small businesses and help them maximize income. Sure you can have goals of 100% satisfied customers and try to be nice to all of them, but your first goal should be revenue. Don't work for free. Outsource if it benefits you.

    Apple is just a machine. You talked about the cloud? Apple doesn't care about google. Apple wants you on their MobileMe cloud. Does it cost you? Sure it does. Does google cost you? Only if watching ads is tolerable to you.

    Apple wants you on itunes, buying music, media, etc through them. They want you in their eco system. And they have revenue streams coming in from all corners.

    Palm? Amazon for on device music. Itunes for desktop music mgmt/purchase. Google for the cloud (or exchange..but that's MS). 3rd party for desktop/wifi syncing. 3rd party for podcast app. 3rd party for tethering (low blow tho). 3rd party for <insert your feature>.

    Outsourcing can be beneficial. Palm doesn't have to run or set up and incur the costs. Problem is they have little control over what google does or what amazon does. And certainly no control over apple changing itunes to not work with Pre. The experience also isn't that seamless. Finally, Palm isn't making hardly any money out of this. They're going the app store route, but that will take time to break even from.

    As someone who sold palm stock after holding it almost a year, I'm concerned they can't make a profit. I see too many missed opportunities. I see Apple and so many revenue streams coming in off their eco system. I see a lot of costs trying to start from zero and manufacture for so many different carriers without a solid foundation in place such as app store, mgmt apps, ways to acquire media, etc. It doesn't leave much for operating cash.

    They're letting and encouraging their customers to use Itunes for crying out loud and are NOT MAKING A DIME off of it while feeding Apple. Palm, partner up already with someone else, develop your sync app and get that revenue stream going.

    Palm provides a backup service. They don't charge for it. Throw in something like iDisk, some kind of enhanced backup or features, and charge away.
    I think you might have been typing this while we continued the conversation -- regarding multitasking, I clarified that I was referring to apps, not core functions, with regard to multitasking (I had made the semantic boo-boo of lumping the iPod with the apps, which are mostly third-party, when clearly it belongs to the native core functions).

    You make many interesting points. And I think everyone here is worried about Palm surviving. But I don't think Palm in a position to charge a load of dough right now. Their big selling point is value. Apple's big weak point is value. I can even see a TV ad campaign here -- what if Apple charged you the difference in cost of ownership up front? Would anyone buy a $1200 phone?

    We keep hearing how the right price today is "free," and people don't seem to mind little link ads...maybe Palm could get a cut of those running on applications on its hardware? People are used to it on the web, and this is a web phone. I don't know; the money side is not my area of expertise.

    But I do know a bit about marketing. There are certain segments of the population who would appreciate a Pre to make their lives more manageable -- for anyone unwilling or unable to carry separate handsets for work and personal use, there is no better tool available to pull it all together. Target working women, as Palm is doing. But also target your road-warrior sales guys: the Pre is easily pocketable; has a strong voice network; has the best notifications out there so you know, unobtrusively, what's coming next; makes managing contact lists and to-dos effortless; lets you talk as much as you want without running up the bill; throws in the Navigator you need; can be used as a Thumb Drive; can be texted on one-handed while walking thanks to the real keyboard; and is insurable. Once they integrate LinkedIn like they do Facebook, even better.

    I think this thing is easy to sell as long as you know who you need to be selling to. People are very interested when they see it, and even more when they see what it can do. People are coming off their existing contracts all the time. If Palm can stay afloat, and can capture a good chunk of those folks as they go, then they will have found their niche and their stride, and those of us rooting for them will be able to relax.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by DougB541 View Post
    I'm done visiting Precentral until the app store is out of beta. Every thread is about:

    Not enough apps
    App store
    Oreo
    Battery


    Blah....i wish people would search instead of just making new threads all the time.
    I hate seeing a post like this one. A few kiddo's on here (and they are very few) repeat their dislike, often about a device they don't own and don't plan on owning, and we see folks leaving the forum.

    I appreciate the decision to come back, but I hate seeing someone leave over the nonsense.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Palm is a Public traded company and is therefore required to report its financial status

    e.g. from

    Palm's Pressure Mounts: Tech Rumor of the Day | Technology | Financial Articles & Investing News | TheStreet.com

    "Palm told analysts on an earnings call last month that it had "sufficient capital" to fund operations and growth. But the speculation around the company's need for more cash continues to grow.
    Palm has $255 million in cash and $394 million in debt. The company, while it did trim its losses, still burned through $72.4 million in cash in the most recent quarter. At that rate, Palm has less than a year's supply of money. "
    You based your assertion predicting possible failure on Palm saying they had sufficient capital to fund operations and growth? Or maybe on the speculation by others.

    Sounds like you're sort of cherry picking the information there to suit your view.

    I think it's important to also mention that Elevation Partners has also expressed their dedication to keeping Palm in the game.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    ...
    If they wanna wait until mid-September to let the App Catalog coming out of beta compete with the sure to be underwhelming financial numbers, that's their stupidity. If they want to keep developers in the dark about what's going on, that is also their stupidity.
    ...
    Maybe they know something about the financials that you don't...
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    #54  
    I think people forget Palm Pre runs "natively" on Linux and there's already thousands of so-called "apps" that people can run.

    Apple iPhone will never reach that level as far as running a linux computer on their system while Palm Pre already has that capability.

    As for GUI apps, Palm just needs to hire more developers and crank out more apps using existing Linux apps out there.

    Javascript I think in my mind is a great thing for developers like me who are already familiar with building websites. I would hate to learn another language to just make an app.

    Well, just my 2 cents, "there's already more apps than iPhones, maybe not GUI but they are there!"
    Check out http://PalmPre-Hacks.com where I document every hack I do on my Palm Pre.
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    #55  
    OH GAWD, take a look at COCOA for developing iPhone Apps, looks like a nightmare compared to Linux,PHP, Javascript, and SSH I am familiar with.

    The Daleisphere — iPhone App Development – Where to Start

    Boo iPhone, I don't want to learn a new language.
    Check out http://PalmPre-Hacks.com where I document every hack I do on my Palm Pre.
  16. s219's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by zedomax View Post
    I think people forget Palm Pre runs "natively" on Linux and there's already thousands of so-called "apps" that people can run.

    Apple iPhone will never reach that level as far as running a linux computer on their system while Palm Pre already has that capability.

    As for GUI apps, Palm just needs to hire more developers and crank out more apps using existing Linux apps out there.

    Javascript I think in my mind is a great thing for developers like me who are already familiar with building websites. I would hate to learn another language to just make an app.

    Well, just my 2 cents, "there's already more apps than iPhones, maybe not GUI but they are there!"

    I can't tell if you're serious or poking fun at the conversation, but I'll assume the former.

    As the iPhone OS is a variant of UNIX like OS X, you could make the same argument about the iPhone being able to run thousands of "codes". There are some distinctions to make though. First of all, at least the iPhone OS contains a decent set of libraries/frameworks you can link against, so doing this would be a bit more practical than on the Pre, out of the box. And the iPhone jailbreak community is very mature right now. The Linux underlayers of the webOS are very limited, containing the minimal amount of support for running native code. The whole OS is geared towards supporting the actual webKit-based webOS layer with the HTML/CSS/Javascript environment. So yeah, it's Linux, but it's an embedded Linux with limitations.

    In neither case is this practical for widespread consumer app development. So while I might like the idea of compiling a finite element analysis code on my device (for those many times I want to compute structural characteristics on the road), it's not going to be practical for distribution to consumers, and it sure as heck won't ever get sanctioned in the app catalog or the iTunes store. So it's not a real practical "app" for distribution or for a developer to make a business around. I'd throw this strictly into the hobby category.
    Last edited by s219; 08/31/2009 at 09:06 AM.
  17. s219's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by zedomax View Post
    OH GAWD, take a look at COCOA for developing iPhone Apps, looks like a nightmare compared to Linux,PHP, Javascript, and SSH I am familiar with.

    The Daleisphere — iPhone App Development – Where to Start

    Boo iPhone, I don't want to learn a new language.
    First of all, what does SSH have to do with development skills? It's a shell protocol. It's platform independent. It's part of the floor of entry into minimal nerd competence. What's next, claiming usage of SFTP is a skill?

    To say Cocoa is a nightmare is so off the mark I have to assume you have no idea what you're talking about. Cocoa Touch is a beautiful tapestry of a development environment. I would also say the same thing about HTML/CSS/Javascript (with the caveat that it's lacking the integration and wonderful toolset that unifies Cocoa). But you have to realize there is a massive difference between the two approaches. While you may bemoan the fact that Cocoa has a learning curve, I am personal proof that it's not hard at all. In fact, as someone who has gone from 0-100% on both web app development and Cocoa, I would honestly say that they have equivalent learning curves if you want to get good. And they can be botched up in an equal way if you aren't good.

    Where the web app approach has a benefit is that it opens up development to a larger community of people who are already educated in HTML/CSS/Javascript. But that doesn't mean any web designer can create web apps. You have to posses programming, math, and computer science skills. Same as Cocoa, same as C, same as FORTRAN, etc.... Web app development has a lower bar of entry, but to develop advanced applications, you will need to have the same knowledge/skills/experience you'd need to develop Cocoa apps.

    I have been programming for nearly 20 years, and it's my opinion that good developers are language independent. If you have to moan about one language or another, it either means you haven't been around long enough, or you haven't tackled enough projects that span a variety of languages, or you just haven't seen the big picture yet. Honestly, when working on a tough project, 95% of the "original" work is algorithm development, and the rest is just implementing it in code. The code implementation part is the dog work needed to make things happen, but at best it's an intermediate step. Doesn't matter what the language is.

    My last iPhone app was 50% Cocoa, and 50% server side PHP/CSS/Javascript. I couldn't have done it if I only favored one side of the balance, and it would not have been possible if I only wanted to use one of those approaches.
  18. cgk
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by THAANSA3 View Post
    Yeah, people always forget this. I never bash the iPhone because I could care less what's better and blah blah blah. However, I still can't stand when people talk about iPhone like it's the greatest thing every created and bash everything else when, in fact, it was extremely buggy and had a high return rate at it's infancy.
    But the point that most people miss is that Palm is not competing during those times, it's competing now. So saying "well once upon a time.." means nothing to the average consumer, they compare on the basis of now. That means saying "well the app store will get there" is a reason to defer buying a pre not buy one now and hope it catches up.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    To say Cocoa is a nightmare is so off the mark I have to assume you have no idea what you're talking about. Cocoa Touch is a beautiful tapestry of a development environment. I would also say the same thing about HTML/CSS/Javascript (with the caveat that it's lacking the integration and wonderful toolset that unifies Cocoa).

    ...

    Where the web app approach has a benefit is that it opens up development to a larger community of people who are already educated in HTML/CSS/Javascript. But that doesn't mean any web designer can create web apps. You have to posses programming, math, and computer science skills. Same as Cocoa, same as C, same as FORTRAN, etc.... Web app development has a lower bar of entry, but to develop advanced applications, you will need to have the same knowledge/skills/experience you'd need to develop Cocoa apps.

    I have been programming for nearly 20 years, and it's my opinion that good developers are language independent. If you have to moan about one language or another, it either means you haven't been around long enough, or you haven't tackled enough projects that span a variety of languages, or you just haven't seen the big picture yet. Honestly, when working on a tough project, 95% of the "original" work is algorithm development, and the rest is just implementing it in code. The code implementation part is the dog work needed to make things happen, but at best it's an intermediate step. Doesn't matter what the language is.

    My last iPhone app was 50% Cocoa, and 50% server side PHP/CSS/Javascript. I couldn't have done it if I only favored one side of the balance, and it would not have been possible if I only wanted to use one of those approaches.
    I agree with much of your well written post with a some exceptions. I don't find the HTML/CSS/Javascript to be beautiful, I actually find it pretty ugly though not perhaps as ugly as perl. I realize though, that this is partly personal taste.

    The other point I would like to make is that most development work is not in fact "original". Much of it involves either building on other code or fixing problems in someone else's code. It's in these areas that the choice of language and development environment becomes quite important. Its easier to write readable and maintainable code in fairly strongly typed languages like C# or Java. A modern IDE can use the type information to assist in analyzing and debugging a system. This makes for a much more pleasant and efficient development process.

    I was interested in you choice of server side PHP/CSS/Javascript in your last iPhone project. What were you using CSS for on the server side? On great thing about web server code is you can use almost any language you want. I have generally used Java or C# and sometimes C++.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    In case you hadn't noticed, Apple is pretty much the only big hardware/software company that is actually seeing business growth in these economic times.
    ...
    I'm thinking you may be a bit mistaken here. Isn't Palm experiencing business growth? It would seem so, since the introduction of the Treo Pro and the Pre...
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