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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    How does a long term Sprint exclusive help Palm. All it would do is ensure a lot of people wouldn't even consider buying a Pre.

    I am with you on alternatives to cloud syncing. It's really limited right now and doesn't even seem to work that well (probably better with Exchange).
    I think a long term contract might help Sprint, but it would only hurt Palm as people see the Pre as another iPhone. I have had to correct Pre owners who say they have an iPhone now. People ('cept techie and Applephobes) aren't looking at the Pre or WebOS as a be all end all great product to switch carriers for. Apple could get away with it because it launched a viciously potent viral ad and marketing campaign that truly convinced people that the iPhone was the best tech product since the clapper. I refused to switch to Att for it, but i know plenty of people who did.

    Palm apparently doesn't have the cash or the chops to do such a campaign. Niether does sprint. As a result, for most folks, the Pre just another phone.

    Who do you know who switched to Sprint because of the Pre? I haven't found one yet and i really want WebOS to blossom. And I think that it's going to have to be in as many hands as possible to do it...

    nb
  2. #22  
    Well, it's kind of Monday morning quarterbacking criticizing launch decisions made by Palm and Sprint. Obviously, they missed some REALLY low-hanging fruit that would've helped (e.g. onscreen keyboard, Facebook app with push notifications, getting build quality right out of the gate). But what's done is done, and they didn't make the best first impression to the market at large.

    I think they've really got to get it together in the next 30 days or so. As that article notes, Sprint is a prime culprit in so-so Pre sales because they keep announcing flagship smartphones that have competitive advantages over the Pre (e.g. video recording, 5K apps in the Android app market, better build quality, etc.). As much as people on this forum want to pretend like everything is hunky dory, and we just need to be patient and wait a year for them to catch up to where Apple was in maturity and apps one year after iPhone....folks, it's a pipe dream. If things continue at their current rate, Palm WILL be defunct much sooner rather than later. Pre sales - as is - aren't stemming their financial red ink tide, Sprint is putting their eggs in other baskets too, and Verizon and/or AT&T aren't going to make things magically better either.

    Palm got the build quality issue under control (albeit far too late). Now, they've GOT to flip the software usability and app catalog scripts. If they wanna wait until mid-September to let the App Catalog coming out of beta compete with the sure to be underwhelming financial numbers, that's their stupidity. If they want to keep developers in the dark about what's going on, that is also their stupidity.

    I wanna see the company succeed. But they've gotta do an about face sooner rather than later.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by biggnaa20 View Post
    Apple could get away with it because it launched a viciously potent viral ad and marketing campaign that truly convinced people that the iPhone was the best tech product since the clapper. I refused to switch to Att for it, but i know plenty of people who did.
    It wasn't just the Ad campaign, Apple already had a strong brand image and the iPod/iTunes ecosystem. They aren't just a smartphone company.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by biggnaa20 View Post

    Who do you know who switched to Sprint because of the Pre? I haven't found one yet and i really want WebOS to blossom. And I think that it's going to have to be in as many hands as possible to do it...

    nb
    I did. I switched from Verizon to Sprint for the Pre. I'm gaga over Synergy and stoked on Web OS.

    And yet, now that I'm at day 27 of my trial period, still with no news from Palm on what will be on the app catalog, or when, or at what price, I'm thinking I'll probably turn it back in and go to AT&T for an iPhone 3GS instead. It kills me -- there are so many things I prefer about the Pre. But maybe iPhoning it while waiting another year or two for a Pre 2.0, with apps, without lag, with a proper keyboard that still works when it's hot from charging on the Touchstone, etc. would be a better move. I love this little device, but it's pretty hard to justify it over something with fast performance, big storage and an enormous universe of apps and accessories, and if they don't come through, I don't want to be a sucker mired in a 2 year contract.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    And yet, now that I'm at day 27 of my trial period, still with no news from Palm on what will be on the app catalog, or when, or at what price, I'm thinking I'll probably turn it back in and go to AT&T for an iPhone 3GS instead.
    It is not realistic to buy a computer or smartphone with a new OS and expect a large catalog of apps within a few months. The WebOS app catalog is unlikely to ever match the iPhones, certainly not within a year or two.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    It is not realistic to buy a computer or smartphone with a new OS and expect a large catalog of apps within a few months. The WebOS app catalog is unlikely to ever match the iPhones, certainly not within a year or two.
    I think you're right -- the total number of iPhones plus iPod Touches out there so dwarf any other platform, that developers are going to bring stuff out for iPhone before they get around to thinking about other platforms, if ever...unless the app calls for something the iPhone can't do, like true multitasking.

    That said, Android is easily as nichey a product as WebOS, and it took Android only a year to go from 0 to 1000 apps. And, with Android and iPhone and Blackberry all having app stores, Palm would be on crack to think it's acceptable not to bulk one up pronto. And I assume they're not on crack.

    Are they?

    What would help is communication. In the information age, no news is not good news. We want the company to tell us what they're working on, etc. -- we're all here because we're starved for news & info. In the absence of news, we're going to assume that the blogs are right and sales are below expectation, problems are above projections, and the company is going to go kaput financially and leave us in the lurch.

    Which is possible. Apple is the new Microsoft (they have majority market share among college-age Americans now, and absolute dominance in the exploding smartphone market). Google, thanks to its ad business, is rolling naked in great piles of money. RIM/Blackberry has the corporate market buttoned up like a pinpoint Oxford. Only Palm is without a big financial backer. I reflexively root for the underdog, especially when they have a better idea...but even near term I think Palm is going to need to be bought by someone big, like Samsung, to make this work.

    Otherwise it's going to be a rehash of the Mac-vs-PC wars, where an inferior platform triumphs due to marketing muscle and a vastly larger existing installed base --- only this time, ironically, the triumphant inferior platform will be Apple's. Notice that the arguments given by iPhone fanboys today are IDENTICAL to the arguments given by Windows fanboys in past years: "OK, maybe your OS is a little nicer, but ours is similar, plus we have a larger installed base, more software and accessories available, and better hardware specs for your money." It would be hysterically funny if it weren't so sad.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    I think you're right -- the total number of iPhones plus iPod Touches out there so dwarf any other platform, that developers are going to bring stuff out for iPhone before they get around to thinking about other platforms, if ever...unless the app calls for something the iPhone can't do, like true multitasking.

    That said, Android is easily as nichey a product as WebOS, and it took Android only a year to go from 0 to 1000 apps. And, with Android and iPhone and Blackberry all having app stores, Palm would be on crack to think it's acceptable not to bulk one up pronto. And I assume they're not on crack.

    Are they?

    What would help is communication. In the information age, no news is not good news. We want the company to tell us what they're working on, etc. -- we're all here because we're starved for news & info. In the absence of news, we're going to assume that the blogs are right and sales are below expectation, problems are above projections, and the company is going to go kaput financially and leave us in the lurch.
    This x 1,000,000, especially the bold portion. People here like to say that it took iPhone a year to get an app store, and it's a weak comparison, granted. But Android is about as 1-to-1 as you can get: Single carrier, new platform, Linux base, touchscreen-oriented, but with a hardware QWERTY keyboard, appeals to developers frustrated by Apple.

    But guess what? They had a beta SDK available WELL before launch, and a 1.0 SDK a month later. Did they have superior development resources compared to Palm's? Of course. But they also knew the landscape had changed AFTER iPhone launched an app store, and they couldn't afford to F around.

    So here we are just shy of 90 days out from the Pre launch, and there are still less than FIFTY apps in the App Catalog. Of course people will say there are 150+ homebrew apps. But that's an unofficial solution that requires more effort to get to than a good many Pre owners will take. 90 days out from the launch of the G1, Android Market had EIGHT HUNDRED.

    800. Accessible through the official ondevice app. Or SIXTEEN TIMES as many as the Pre has in its App Catalog. And even if you figure in ALL of the homebrew apps thus far, it's four times as many.

    And yes, this was BEFORE the Android Market started selling apps, so you can't use the excuse that Palm is magically stockpiling hundreds of apps for the supposed unveiling in September. Palm is supposed to build upon and top the efforts of their contemporaries and predecessors...not regress. But that's what they're doing when they can't even touch the bar that Android raised, much less jump it.

    So here we have a beta SDK that "leaked" 45 days AFTER launch, and when developers have submitted apps to Palm for the App Catalog, they've been greeted with...mostly silence. Not only has Palm made a lame start when it comes to official apps, but they're continuing to bungle the avenues of communication with both developers AND customers.
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    Otherwise it's going to be a rehash of the Mac-vs-PC wars, where an inferior platform triumphs due to marketing muscle and a vastly larger existing installed base --- only this time, ironically, the triumphant inferior platform will be Apple's. Notice that the arguments given by iPhone fanboys today are IDENTICAL to the arguments given by Windows fanboys in past years: "OK, maybe your OS is a little nicer, but ours is similar, plus we have a larger installed base, more software and accessories available, and better hardware specs for your money." It would be hysterically funny if it weren't so sad.

    At the moment, I don't think Palm is even close to assuming the role of the superior product. Their SDK is seriously outgunned by Apple's sophisticated offering and I don't see it catching up any time soon. Is it so hard to admit that Apple might triumph in this area because they have done a better job with their SDK and establishing the app store economy? It's not just marketing and numbers.

    I would love to see Palm succeed, but they need to earn it. Right now, they are not.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    At the moment, I don't think Palm is even close to assuming the role of the superior product. Their SDK is seriously outgunned by Apple's sophisticated offering and I don't see it catching up any time soon. Is it so hard to admit that Apple might triumph in this area because they have done a better job with their SDK and establishing the app store economy? It's not just marketing and numbers.

    I would love to see Palm succeed, but they need to earn it. Right now, they are not.
    Is Palm's SDK superior? Nope. Can they overcome Apple's first-mover advantage? Not bloody likely (as the US auto industry has shown, as long as you're first on the scene and get big fast enough, your product can be outclassed by others and still remain dominant for decades). But is Palm's philosophical approach superior? Yes, and that is why I want to see them flourish long term. Here's what I mean:

    1. This is the age of the cloud. It is beyond ridiculous that Apple expects us to daily fire up our laptops, physically connect our iPhones, wait while their iTunes bloatware loads (and, if you're running Windows, crashes anything else you're doing), and wait while it syncs the phone --- or, alternately, pay Apple $100 a year for the privilege of living in 2009 and syncing our calendar and email and contacts in real time wirelessly, and even then we have to learn and use their crap MobileMe software to do it. WTF?

    2. A device that can't multitask is a feature phone, not a pocket computer. I thought multitasking on a phone was a gimmick until I found myself actually using my Pre the way I used to use my laptop -- and not using my laptop for so long that, among other things, I briefly forgot my email password.

    3. This is 2009, not 1990. I expect my device to serve my needs, not the other way around. If someone is messaging me, I don't want to have think about whether it's coming from SMS or gtalk and load the appropriate application -- I just want my phone to alert me to the conversation and enable it for me. If I've put events on my calendar, I don't want to have to know whether they're on my Outlook work calendar or my Gmail travel calendar or my personal Facebook calendar and have to open and close each one until I've compared them all and made a mental or manual composite of my day -- I want it all shown in one calendar automatically. Similar deal with my contacts -- I don't want to look in multiple places (Facebook, phone contact list, Gmail contact list) to find people or to mentally or manually merge their details. I am too busy and too disorganized for that, and I suspect a lot of other people are too.

    Palm recognizes this, and WebOS and Synergy together give us the first system that makes an honest-to-God sincere effort to serve the user's daily needs, instead of expecting the user to conform to the computer's needs. It is hard to overstate how important and revolutionary this is.

    In these forums we tend to get caught up in distractions like Palm's failure to enable hardware graphics acceleration out of the box or whatever, and forget that they really have changed what we can expect from a mobile device. If they don't have the dough to push this effort forward, I hope someone steps up who does.

    (Yes, the not-particularly-intuitive interface is inconsistent with that philosophy, but that can be refined over time. For instance, they could use a larger center button with a home icon on it, and change the the gesture area to labeled forward and back buttons.)

    Like I said, my head is telling me to swerve back to iPhone... but my heart, jeez, it's killing me.
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    #30  
    LOL at some of these deluded fanboys.
  11. Xyg
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Palm is a Public traded company and is therefore required to report its financial status

    e.g. from

    Palm's Pressure Mounts: Tech Rumor of the Day | Technology | Financial Articles & Investing News | TheStreet.com

    "Palm told analysts on an earnings call last month that it had "sufficient capital" to fund operations and growth. But the speculation around the company's need for more cash continues to grow.
    Palm has $255 million in cash and $394 million in debt. The company, while it did trim its losses, still burned through $72.4 million in cash in the most recent quarter. At that rate, Palm has less than a year's supply of money. "
    Palm does have several sources to secure additional capital from if it needs to, and the article you posted mentions this.

    The rest of that article is filled with conjecture from analysts speculating on what sales numbers just might be or not be.

    The author of the article went as far as to say that the "Pre is languishing on the shelves". Another rather bold statement when you have no actual data to back it up.

    The article never touched on exactly how many phones Palm needs to ship to become cash-flow positive - either because the author and his sources don't know or don't care to mention it.

    So while Palm might be a publicly traded company, you still have a rather small picture of their financial situation. Hell, Palm has even stated that they have "the potential of turning cash flow positive in the second half of fiscal 2010." and that they have "sufficient capital to fund operations and growth".

    Let's talk more after Palm has their Q1 earnings call to really see how the Pre has done.
  12. #32  
    A few points:

    1) Android's SDK is far far superior to Palm's. Android is a much more appealing platform fro developers.

    2) There is nothing technically superior about WebOS relative to Android or iPhone.

    3) The iPhone can multi-task, Apple's apps do it all the time. "Homebrew" solutions exist to allow other apps to mulit-task.

    3) The iPhone supports cloud computing just as well as WebOS does. The only thing it doesn't do right now is push Gmail.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    A few points:

    1) Android's SDK is far far superior to Palm's. Android is a much more appealing platform fro developers.

    2) There is nothing technically superior about WebOS relative to Android or iPhone.

    3) The iPhone can multi-task, Apple's apps do it all the time. "Homebrew" solutions exist to allow other apps to mulit-task.

    3) The iPhone supports cloud computing just as well as WebOS does. The only thing it doesn't do right now is push Gmail.

    WebOS may not be technically superior, but it is Superior.

    The Iphone can hardly be called a multi-tasker, running the ipod in the background is not multi-tasking.

    The iphone may support cloud computing, but it hardly enables or encourages it and it is definitely not their core philosophy.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post

    1. This is the age of the cloud. It is beyond ridiculous that Apple expects us to daily fire up our laptops, physically connect our iPhones, wait while their iTunes bloatware loads (and, if you're running Windows, crashes anything else you're doing), and wait while it syncs the phone --- or, alternately, pay Apple $100 a year for the privilege of living in 2009 and syncing our calendar and email and contacts in real time wirelessly, and even then we have to learn and use their crap MobileMe software to do it. WTF?

    2. A device that can't multitask is a feature phone, not a pocket computer. I thought multitasking on a phone was a gimmick until I found myself actually using my Pre the way I used to use my laptop -- and not using my laptop for so long that, among other things, I briefly forgot my email password.

    3. This is 2009, not 1990. I expect my device to serve my needs, not the other way around. If someone is messaging me, I don't want to have think about whether it's coming from SMS or gtalk and load the appropriate application -- I just want my phone to alert me to the conversation and enable it for me. If I've put events on my calendar, I don't want to have to know whether they're on my Outlook work calendar or my Gmail travel calendar or my personal Facebook calendar and have to open and close each one until I've compared them all and made a mental or manual composite of my day -- I want it all shown in one calendar automatically. Similar deal with my contacts -- I don't want to look in multiple places (Facebook, phone contact list, Gmail contact list) to find people or to mentally or manually merge their details. I am too busy and too disorganized for that, and I suspect a lot of other people are too.

    Indeed. In the long term, this is why A WebOS will succeed and a IPhone OS will fail.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    The Iphone can hardly be called a multi-tasker, running the ipod in the background is not multi-tasking.

    The iphone may support cloud computing, but it hardly enables or encourages it and it is definitely not their core philosophy.
    Actually when it is running the iPod app in the background, an iPhone is multitasking.

    Both the iPhone and the Pre support syncing email, contacts and calendar with MS Exchange. Both can sync google calendar and contacts. Apple even offers a cloud computing service called "Mobile Me".
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    Indeed. In the long term, this is why A WebOS will succeed and a IPhone OS will fail.
    If you believe this you are seriously delusional. Android may fail, WebOS may fail. Apple & RIM will continue to dominate.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    If you believe this you are seriously delusional. Android may fail, WebOS may fail. Apple & RIM will continue to dominate.
    Yeah, I'm curious as to how a platform with 30 million users worldwide can be ever considered a failure.

    Granted, iPhone OS WILL fade from dominance at some point, as all platforms do. But whenever that is, the "success" is already baked into the cake. Palm is still trying to get sugar, flour, and butter together.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Actually when it is running the iPod app in the background, an iPhone is multitasking.

    Both the iPhone and the Pre support syncing email, contacts and calendar with MS Exchange. Both can sync google calendar and contacts. Apple even offers a cloud computing service called "Mobile Me".
    ADGrant, the iPod is the ONLY app that an iPhone will multitask. The iPhone ONLY supports real-time wireless sync of calendar, contacts and mail if you pay Apple an extra $100 a year for MobileMe (or use a combination of beta Google Sync and buggy GPush, which in turn occupy your Exchange sync connection so you can't sync your work email). These are deficiencies, not strengths.
  19. #39  
    Speaking of extra charges, let's talk. So MobileMe dings you an extra $200 per 2 year contract, plus more software to learn, for what ought to be standard (and automatic) functionality. But wait, there's more. Does your employer want to sync your work Exchange account? That'll be an extra $15 a month, $360 over your contract. Want that exciting new innovation called text messaging? Cheapest plan to add it will be $5 a month (careful not to use more than 6 per day, or you'll need to go to $15 a month), for a minimum of $120 extra. Want turn by turn navigation? No problemo, that'll be an extra $10 a month for $240 over your contract.

    So far we're at $920, plus extra effort, to get functionality that a Pre gives you for, how much again? -- FREE.

    And don't lose it -- your carrier doesn't offer insurance, so better start a savings account in case you have to buy a new one at the unsubsidized price of $599+.

    All that, and the worst voice service in the industry.

    Apple products have long been status symbols as much as utilitarian devices -- like an Audi, a way of advertising that you are a consumer of wealth and taste. As long as they deliver a forward-thinking, superior experience, they can get away with that.

    But this is a recessionary environment, where overpaying isn't necessarily cool anymore. And instead of moving forward into the cloud, Apple refuses to cut the USB cord lest it cut into their computer sales. And dangerously for a company so heavily dependent on the visual-arts crowd, their UI looks positively dated compared to the Pre's.

    Had the Pre come out of the gate with hardware that didn't feel flimsy, and battery capacity and graphics rendering speed that matched the 3GS instead of the 3G, and a strong app catalog, we would be having an entirely different conversation right now. But those things can easily be fixed over the medium term (enable hardware graphics acceleration, use a 1320 mah battery, ramp up the app catalog) or the short term (drop the price to $99). Because Synergy and WebOS move the ball forward, some analysts, like some posters here, see Palm's longer-term prospects as rosy.

    I don't have rose-colored glasses on -- I originally posted in this thread because I was fixin' to return my Pre and get an iPhone for what it offers NOW, as opposed to in the future. An iPhone is more fun now, if you like downloading games; it gives you enough storage space that you really don't need a separate iPod (if you buy a 32g version); and it's easier to find accessories to enable seamless car integration. If you have the dough and you want your goodies now, rather than later, why not.

    But if Palm is bought by someone with the money to move faster and market harder, then the innate advantages of its WebOS and Synergy, teamed with Palm's focus on maintaining a cool look-and-feel, have a real chance of changing the conversation, and soon. To me, an iPhone now is a stopgap; the real excitement comes with the next-generation Pre.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by friedputty View Post
    ADGrant, the iPod is the ONLY app that an iPhone will multitask. The iPhone ONLY supports real-time wireless sync of calendar, contacts and mail if you pay Apple an extra $100 a year for MobileMe (or use a combination of beta Google Sync and buggy GPush, which in turn occupy your Exchange sync connection so you can't sync your work email). These are deficiencies, not strengths.

    Google exchange syncs works very well on the Iphone I used it before I bought my Pre.

    On the multi tasking, you are full of crap. The Iphone multi tasks all of its core functions, Text, phone, browser, email and Ipod as of 3.0. Prior to 3.0 the browser wasn't included it is now.

    Meaning you can type a response on Precentral, home key, text message, home, safari and your reply is still there waiting to hit submit.

    Get your facts straight before you spout garbage.
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