Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 90
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    I think the issue is this:

    How long do you really think Palm has to get this right? Do you think they can screw around with WebOS for a year until its really ready for release and be ok?

    I don't.

    Fanboi's on a fan forum can easily overlook many of the flaws and issues with the device, consumers frankly don't give a **** what Palm's excuses are or what they are promising. Hell, Palm isn't saying anything actually, which makes it worse.

    For all the crap Apple gets about not including common features you can at least say when it does go on the device its done very well. I can't really say the same for Palm. In fact its always been like that, Garnet was junk and third parties bailed them out. Unfortunately with the Pre Palm doesn't even have that option because everything of substance is locked out.
    I disagree....I really feel as though this is a new palm. The updates alone tell you its a differant ballgame to palm. And lets be honest, if they held onto the pre any longer they could have died with the "gun" in their hand per se. I knew that when I bought the Pre. Most of the early adopters of both the iphone and pre seem to be fan bois as you put it. Alot of us are still willing to give palm the time to get this OS up and running full speed. The ones that don't...well....just dont throw out the baby with the bath water.....
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  2. #22  
    I don't know about gaming, but I left the house at 10am with a fully charged battery. I needed the internet on for most of the trip -- I was waiting for something I needed to check on. And then I probably made a dozen phone calls. And played word whirl for MAYBE 20 minutes. And pandora for about 30 minutes on the way home until the phone died. It was 2p. gps off, locator off.

    It seems to me, just a nobody consumer, that the battery should last longer than that. Shouldn't it?
  3. s219's Avatar
    Posts
    498 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,008 Global Posts
    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    Thanks! I appreciate it, it filled about 10mins here at work!!! However both articles are quoting the same guy....and he made the same complaints about the Iphone...either way I think we are talking, like you said, a matter of when not if for better gaming on the Pre...

    I know that opinions can cloud up the discussions, and you have to take them with a grain of salt. But the bottom line facts discussed in the articles can be verified by looking in the SDK and it's documentation, and doing some snooping around in the OS.

    I hope developers complain more vocally about this aspect of the webOS. When that happens on the iPhone platform, it means that we're getting deep/insightful (and generally no-nonsense) analysis of the problem -- the kind you don't get from a consumer perspective, or from stock analysts, or from company flunkies. It drives the platform to improve. Third party developers tend to have a very good understanding and critique of relevant issues, and they have more of a "technocratic" view of the current state of the art and where we need to move in the future. So I take this stuff very seriously.
  4. #24  
    I don't understand the controversy here. Everyone knows that the Mojo API is in its infancy. Everyone knows the Pre has a graphics core that is not being utilized. Everyone knows the iPhone has great graphics. I can't imagine that Palm isn't working on it, but this is a marathon, not a sprint. It has to be done right, and these things take time, time they didn't have when trying to get the Pre out the door. I'm glad they didn't wait. Most people are satisfied with the little casual games that the Pre can handle just fine right now. Palm seems to have gotten their list of priorities right.
  5. #25  
    And I don't understand why anyone would be looking to a smartphone with 3" screen to satisfy their gaming needs. Something to pass a few idle minutes? Sure! But playing 3D graphics games, WTF ????
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    I don't understand the controversy here. Everyone knows that the Mojo API is in its infancy. Everyone knows the Pre has a graphics core that is not being utilized. Everyone knows the iPhone has great graphics. I can't imagine that Palm isn't working on it, but this is a marathon, not a sprint. It has to be done right, and these things take time, time they didn't have when trying to get the Pre out the door. I'm glad they didn't wait. Most people are satisfied with the little casual games that the Pre can handle just fine right now. Palm seems to have gotten their list of priorities right.
    +1 ^^

    And everyone one knows that it took Apple a year to allow access to their GPU. It's not a secret.
    Achill3s' Palm Pre: Modded and patched to death!!
  7. s219's Avatar
    Posts
    498 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,008 Global Posts
    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Achill3s View Post
    +1 ^^

    And everyone one knows that it took Apple a year to allow access to their GPU. It's not a secret.
    If this is somehow supposed to excuse Palm from their poor decision, let me poke a few holes in your attempt.

    1) Apple was using OpenGL and graphics acceleration on the iPhone from day one. Their entire OS is based on using the GPU for routine rendering tasks, so this was a rather critical capability for them to have when the device was released. Unlike Palm, they seem to be keenly aware how important graphics acceleration is for a mobile OS.

    2) The jailbreak community was releasing graphics intensive games for the iPhone less than 30 days after it was released.

    3) Even if 1 & 2 weren't true, we shouldn't be comparing Palm's efforts with Apple Technology from 2007. Unless you really think that is a fair way to rate Palm. It's 2009, and they need to be competitive with the current state of the art, not two years ago.
  8. #28  
    +1 on Bubbles killing the battery. I've made the mistake of leaving the Bubbles card open for a few hours and it sucked all the juice from my Pre.
  9. UF15's Avatar
    Posts
    104 Posts
    Global Posts
    105 Global Posts
    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    If this is somehow supposed to excuse Palm from their poor decision, let me poke a few holes in your attempt.

    1) Apple was using OpenGL and graphics acceleration on the iPhone from day one. Their entire OS is based on using the GPU for routine rendering tasks, so this was a rather critical capability for them to have when the device was released. Unlike Palm, they seem to be keenly aware how important graphics acceleration is for a mobile OS.

    2) The jailbreak community was releasing graphics intensive games for the iPhone less than 30 days after it was released.

    3) Even if 1 & 2 weren't true, we shouldn't be comparing Palm's efforts with Apple Technology from 2007. Unless you really think that is a fair way to rate Palm. It's 2009, and they need to be competitive with the current state of the art, not two years ago.
    Great post. I am actually way more concerned why the OS itself doesn't take advantage of the GPU to at least make scrolling and transitions smooth. I can live without Duke Nukem, but the clunky OS could really easily be helped by accessing GPU powers.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    If this is somehow supposed to excuse Palm from their poor decision, let me poke a few holes in your attempt.

    1) Apple was using OpenGL and graphics acceleration on the iPhone from day one. Their entire OS is based on using the GPU for routine rendering tasks, so this was a rather critical capability for them to have when the device was released. Unlike Palm, they seem to be keenly aware how important graphics acceleration is for a mobile OS.

    2) The jailbreak community was releasing graphics intensive games for the iPhone less than 30 days after it was released.

    3) Even if 1 & 2 weren't true, we shouldn't be comparing Palm's efforts with Apple Technology from 2007. Unless you really think that is a fair way to rate Palm. It's 2009, and they need to be competitive with the current state of the art, not two years ago.
    The importance of graphics acceleration is subjective. Yeah it would have been nice for WEBOS to have used it right out of the box but it's not the be all and end all. It hasn't stopped the Pre from being a joy to use for me and many others. 3d gaming was obviously not their priority and IMO, it doesn't have to be. I'd rather them polish up the OS, address the glitches, and add some more features to satiate those who crave them.

    Apple's priorites were obviously different hence the direction they took with their OS.

    It doesn't mean I wouldn't welcome 3d performance, I'd just rather them concentrate on other things first. Like someone said on another forum, 'I bought a Pre, not an Iphone'.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    3d gaming was obviously not their priority and IMO, it doesn't have to be. I'd rather them polish up the OS, address the glitches, and add some more features to satiate those who crave them.
    The irony of your statement is Palm didn't have to make it an either-or decision. They could have chosen to have WebOS use the GPU for all graphic rendering, not just 3D gaming. It would have made scrolling, swiping, and moving screen elements much smoother for no additional effort. For whatever reason, Palm chose to omit the GPU in their ground-up development of WebOS. It seems to defy logic.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    The irony of your statement is Palm didn't have to make it an either-or decision. They could have chosen to have WebOS use the GPU for all graphic rendering, not just 3D gaming. It would have made scrolling, swiping, and moving screen elements much smoother for no additional effort. For whatever reason, Palm chose to omit the GPU in their ground-up development of WebOS. It seems to defy logic.
    Very interesting point . . .
  13. s219's Avatar
    Posts
    498 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,008 Global Posts
    #33  
    Right, the conversation always drifts towards games, but having the entire OS use graphics acceleration would improve the overall user experience, reduce heat, and improve battery life. These are fundamental characteristics that are critical for mobile devices. Doesn't matter if you are into gaming or not. The entire OS and device, starting at the most primitive level of function, would be benefitting from graphics acceleration. That is the key part to realize, and that's where I think Palm made a poor choice. Why they made a poor choice a whole other discussion to have...
  14. UF15's Avatar
    Posts
    104 Posts
    Global Posts
    105 Global Posts
    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Right, the conversation always drifts towards games, but having the entire OS use graphics acceleration would improve the overall user experience, reduce heat, and improve battery life. These are fundamental characteristics that are critical for mobile devices. Doesn't matter if you are into gaming or not. The entire OS and device, starting at the most primitive level of function, would be benefitting from graphics acceleration. That is the key part to realize, and that's where I think Palm made a poor choice. Why they made a poor choice a whole other discussion to have...
    How hard would it be to integrate the GPU at this point in that fashion. Would it be almost as simple as just switching something over in the framework, or would every single thing need to be rewritten? I ask because I would like to hope they would someday, soon, take advantage of the hardware.
  15. s219's Avatar
    Posts
    498 Posts
    Global Posts
    1,008 Global Posts
    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    How hard would it be to integrate the GPU at this point in that fashion. Would it be almost as simple as just switching something over in the framework, or would every single thing need to be rewritten? I ask because I would like to hope they would someday, soon, take advantage of the hardware.
    I am thinking it would have to go something like this:

    1) write a driver for the GPU (enables it to function within the OS)
    2) compile OpenGL into a framework/library (enables software to link against OpenGL)
    3) create an API layer to let javascript communicate with OpenGL. The API layer would link with OpenGL (C compilation) and essentially be a shim layer that javascript can hook into.

    So then, software can call the javascript API, which invokes OpenGL to communicate with the GPU. This will obviously be limited by the throughput of javascript, so don't expect stellar performance.

    It's no small task to make this all happen. In particular, #3 has been talked about and proposed as a major project (webGL) all of it's own -- so consider #3 to depend on some enabling technology that hasn't been done yet. #2 would be the easiest part, as it's fairly trivial to compile OpenGL into a library. #1 takes a hardware/driver specialist to sit down and crank out a driver.
  16. #36  
    Gotta have patience. Apple is on their 3rd iteration of their product? Pre is a 1st gen product. Is 3d gaming a priority of this product, probably not (imo). None of us know Palm's intentions but you're always free to get an iphone if you're unhappy with the Pre.
    Achill3s' Palm Pre: Modded and patched to death!!
  17. #37  
    There wouldn't be a real 3D-capable GPU in the device if Palm didn't have an intention of using it at some point. That would arbitrarily increase the manufacturing costs of the product for no reason. Just because a new OS system doesn't have GPU driver support doesn't mean it isn't in the works. As we all know there are things in the shipped code that aren't finished and activated like the on-screen keyboard. It makes sense there would be code that isn't in the shipped product that they are working on like a GPU driver and framework with OpenGL/VS/WebGL interconnects for release later.
    Kevin
    Retail Communications Consultant
    Sprint Corporate Retail Store (Advanced Exchange)
    HTC Mogul - Palm Treo 800w - RIM Blackberry Curve 8350i - HTC Touch Pro - Palm Pre - HTC Hero w/2.1

    Any mis-spellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional; they are placed there for the enjoyment of those who like to point them out. Above post is based on my personal opinion and knowledge, it is not an official position on behalf of Sprint Nextel. Enjoy. :-)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by halcyoncmdr View Post
    There wouldn't be a real 3D-capable GPU in the device if Palm didn't have an intention of using it at some point. That would arbitrarily increase the manufacturing costs of the product for no reason. Just because a new OS system doesn't have GPU driver support doesn't mean it isn't in the works. As we all know there are things in the shipped code that aren't finished and activated like the on-screen keyboard. It makes sense there would be code that isn't in the shipped product that they are working on like a GPU driver and framework with OpenGL/VS/WebGL interconnects for release later.
    Yeah, Palm kinda had to rush this phone out the door (or so it's said in so many articles) to get it on the market before the *dare i say it* Iphone 3GS was released. They probably were focusing more on the essentials of the OS and less on the extras. The OS works w/o the gpu. This support could be added later down the road *crosses fingers*
  19. wicketr's Avatar
    Posts
    232 Posts
    Global Posts
    249 Global Posts
       #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    I am thinking it would have to go something like this:

    1) write a driver for the GPU (enables it to function within the OS)
    2) compile OpenGL into a framework/library (enables software to link against OpenGL)
    3) create an API layer to let javascript communicate with OpenGL. The API layer would link with OpenGL (C compilation) and essentially be a shim layer that javascript can hook into.

    So then, software can call the javascript API, which invokes OpenGL to communicate with the GPU. This will obviously be limited by the throughput of javascript, so don't expect stellar performance.

    It's no small task to make this all happen. In particular, #3 has been talked about and proposed as a major project (webGL) all of it's own -- so consider #3 to depend on some enabling technology that hasn't been done yet. #2 would be the easiest part, as it's fairly trivial to compile OpenGL into a library. #1 takes a hardware/driver specialist to sit down and crank out a driver.
    Considering the GPU is used in other mobile devices I would imagine #1 and #2 are already done. Now the question is how quick they could crank out #3. You'd think that if they cared they would have done it from the beginning so that the OS interface could have benefited from it.

    To add it in now and take advantage of it, they'd have to rewrite many of the animation portions of their OS.

    For those that say 3D doesn't matter, if i rephrased it and said it'd improve battery life by 15-20% would you care?
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by wicketr View Post
    Considering the GPU is used in other mobile devices I would imagine #1 and #2 are already done. Now the question is how quick they could crank out #3. You'd think that if they cared they would have done it from the beginning so that the OS interface could have benefited from it.

    To add it in now and take advantage of it, they'd have to rewrite many of the animation portions of their OS.

    For those that say 3D doesn't matter, if i rephrased it and said it'd improve battery life by 15-20% would you care?
    There may be a driver, but drivers have to be writtin for each operating system. This is why hardware works on some operating systems but not others. The same driver does not work for 32-bit Windows XP and 64-bit Windows XP, or Windows Vista, or Windows 7, or going back to Windows 3.1, same goes for mobile devices. Not all devices use the same underlying OS. Some phones run specialized simple OSes, others run Symbian OS, the iphone is an OS X-based system, the Pre has a Linux-based system, but it's not a straight Linux system with native terminal access, etc. It is just the underlying code that is linux, all of the OS interlinks are different so new drivers will have to be written specifically for that hardware on this operating system.

    Why would they have to rewrite the animation portions? I don't see a particular reason why they can't just replace the animation code with a call to the GPU to do essentially the same calculations and processes once the driver and framework is present. A GPU essentially is just an enormous cluster of CPUs designed for extremely low latency calculations. For example an nVidia GeForce GTS 250 has 128 processing cores, but they are all tunes for random graphics algorithm processing versus general purpose mixed processing.

    Yes probably utilizing the GPU would increase battery life, and that is one reason to have it, another is gaming, another is to remove some of the slow animation processes that are visible at times. There are a number of reasons to add GPU processing to the system, but it's not as simple as popping it is and going as apparently a lot of people think. This is an entirely new operating system built from the ground up. Think of it like designing an entirely new OS for the PC market without having a base to work with. WebOS may be linux-based but that doesn't mean that a majority of the code will work with a mobile device out of the box. It just means they have s standard programming interface that they can use, and don't have to develop an entire binary-machine code translation function from scratch; which would probably take years, and that just gets the CPU to understand the 1s and 0s.
    Kevin
    Retail Communications Consultant
    Sprint Corporate Retail Store (Advanced Exchange)
    HTC Mogul - Palm Treo 800w - RIM Blackberry Curve 8350i - HTC Touch Pro - Palm Pre - HTC Hero w/2.1

    Any mis-spellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional; they are placed there for the enjoyment of those who like to point them out. Above post is based on my personal opinion and knowledge, it is not an official position on behalf of Sprint Nextel. Enjoy. :-)
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions