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  1. #21  
    I fully understand it is a different system, but as a consumer, I could care less.

    I think that to diminish the functionality of the same brand from 3 generations previous (I migrated from a 680) is a mistake and I suspect they are figuring this out, esp. if the rumors about slower than desired sales is true.

    That said, Dvigilante1 hit it right, these are Apple alums and I am presuming that they have the same priorities as an iphone/ipod user would (entertainment) and not the same priorities as a Palm user would.

    I went to look at the new Android phone at TMobile this morning. I found the resolution and functionality so inferior to the Pre, I'm really hoping for Palm to fix things. I'm too old to learn Linux and make my own apps!
  2. #22  
    That said, Dvigilante1 hit it right, these are Apple alums and I am presuming that they have the same priorities as an iphone/ipod user would (entertainment) and not the same priorities as a Palm user would.
    I think this is absolutely right. Access isn't responsible for the success of the PalmOS PIM functionality -- Colligan and his original team are. Apple couldn't make the Newton a success -- it took Palm to create a PDA that business people could use quickly and efficiently to manage their work. If all I wanted was a device to play music, movies and games on, I'd have switched back to AT&T to get an iPhone a long time ago.

    Everyone got all excited when Palm hired Rubenstein, aka The Podfather. The Pre and WebOS could have been -- should have been -- an evolutionary leap forward from PalmOS while keeping the key feature that made Palm so successful in the first place: best-in-class PDA/PIM functions. I'm still holding out hope that Palm's current leadership recognizes these shortcomings in WebOS and addresses them quickly.
    Powered by Palm since 1996...
    Palm Pilot > Palm V > Tungsten T > Trēo 650 > Centro > Prē > Prē F102

    ...gave up and switched to iPhone4 7/15/10
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianagr View Post
    I fully understand it is a different system, but as a consumer, I could care less.

    I think that to diminish the functionality of the same brand from 3 generations previous (I migrated from a 680) is a mistake and I suspect they are figuring this out, esp. if the rumors about slower than desired sales is true.
    You really need to distinguish between "brand" and "model". They really didn't "diminish" from the 3 generations previous, they completely changed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dianagr View Post
    ...
    I went to look at the new Android phone at TMobile this morning. I found the resolution and functionality so inferior to the Pre, I'm really hoping for Palm to fix things. I'm too old to learn Linux and make my own apps!
    You're not going to have to write your own apps. However, if you had demanded additional functionality of the Palm Pilot 2 months after it came out, you would have been deeply disappointed.

    Again, this is not another model in the PalmOS path, it's the first device in the WebOS path.
  4. #24  
    I was being a bit facetious about the apps.....my point (perhaps a bit too snarky to be clear), was that following Nascar, finding Kosher restaurants, playing games & noting my mpg are not priorities. I don't see a rush of 3rd party apps -- homebrew or official -- that search calendars or load the calendar within 10 seconds.

    I have been a loyal Palm user for years; in the upward transition from my Tungsten T2 to Treo 680, I never lost the PIM functionality. But moreso, this was the feature that identified the Palm brand in the marketplace, and why, I believe so many old-time Palm users are disappointed.

    For lack of a better analogy, this is like Ford introducing the next generation automobile which runs on solar, gets 100mpg, but has no bluetooth, doesn't include power windows, has no nav capability and only comes in manual transmission; all while cutting the previous lineup to only the F150. People want the better vehicle, but they will miss previous comforts that helped define the brand.

    Yes, WebOS is really cool. Yes the phone is capable of much more than a Treo ever offered - but it needs to offer those things and I think it will....ever the optimist that I am.
  5. #25  
    Speaking of Ford I actually saw a 09 ford focus at a dealership last month with no power windows but with bluetooth. Talk about odd.

    Back on topic my vote is less google and apple features and more PIM.
  6. #26  
    Short answer to the OP's questions:

    Because the Pre was released "Pre-maturely." Palm had to get it out or face total failure, but it's pretty clearly not really finished. In fact, I'd say the first version of WebOS out of the box should have been classified as beta, and the current version isn't much different.

    At least, I hope it's not really finished. If Palm thinks this is good enough to compete with other Smartphone vendors, then they're still in big trouble. I could easily double your list of things that I use on my 755p that the Pre lacks. If my Treo dies now, I'll buy a used one off of ebay while I wait to see if the Pre catches up.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  7. #27  
    The first month of so that I had the Pre, I felt a little like the original poster did. For a couple of weeks, I seriously considered going back to my 755p. There are absolutely things I could do on my 755p that I can't do on my Pre. Some of those things are so basic, I would never have thought to question whether it would be on the Pre or not (email search, ahem). Of course it would, why wouldn't it? Video recording I knew about. Some of the other things were a surprise to me.

    But you know what? If you embrace the vision that Palm is trying to get across with the Pre, you start to miss those things less. Alright, I still miss email searching, but the WebOS sync-less philosophy is really appealing to me. Many, many other capabilities that I didn't have with my 755p have grown to be a part of my life by now. I pick up my 755p every so often, and I can't believe I ever used it. It feels foreign.

    To the OP, I say give it some time. Look into using IMAP email--that's really what the Pre email system has been designed for (I think you can set your gmail to get mail from other accounts). The more you use it and explore the features that are there and try to incorporate them into your life, the more you'll like it. You might still miss a few things from time to time, but you'd miss more if you dumped the Pre.

    To Palm: we love you, but there are a few key things that everyone knows we'd like to have on the Pre. Please be good to us and deliver them so we can experience handheld nirvana.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  8. tlaz's Avatar
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    #28  
    Remember, the people in this forum are the power user/phone geeks. We live and breathe every minor feature an detail, and subject phones to an enormous amount of scrutiny. Palm wants us to use the Pre, but they REALLY want the huge numbers of people who have NEVER even had a smartphone. Remember Colligan discussing "the fat middle" of the market? They want a phone for the masses. So, no cut and paste. No folders for emails, very basic calendar, and an inability to customize PIM funcitons TO START. But a sexy look, ease of use, great browsing/Wifi, synergy etc that will wow first-time smartphone users.

    Sadly, the must-haves for us aren't must-haves for the target audience - people who don't have smartphones yet. But it will come. 95% of what people are clamoring for here are small software tweaks that Palm or 3rd parties will do.

    I wavered and sweated over every detail before leaving my 755p. Now I'm so glad I did. The upside of the Pre far exceeds the downside, imho.
  9. tlaz's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    To the OP, I say give it some time. Look into using IMAP email--that's really what the Pre email system has been designed for (I think you can set your gmail to get mail from other accounts).
    +1 I only used Pop before the Pre. IMAP makes storing emails on your phone feel very antiquated. You won't miss having to delete hundreds of emails from every folder of Versamail.
  10. #30  
    The Palm Pre Tips and Tricks include a list of missing basic features because people keep thinking that they must be in there somewhere...

    Missing Basic Features
    A number of basic features available on your old Treo, iPhone, or other smart phone are not enabled in the Palm Pre. These are noted here so that you do not search for these familiar features that do not yet exist on the Palm Pre.

    Typing
    ►The screen keyboard has been found! It is in the webOS.


    ►Undo - You can't undo a mistake in the Pre. On your PC Undo is [Crtl] - [Z], on a Treo press [Menu] - [Z]. When enabled, Undo should be "Press the Gesture Area and Z at the same time." There is no work-around.
    ►Italics - To italicize highlighted text on a PC, press Ctrl - I , on a Treo press Menu - I . When enabled, Italics should be "Press the Gesture Area and I at the same time." There is no work-around.
    ►Bold - To make highlighted text bold on a PC, press Ctrl - B , on a Treo press Menu - B . When enabled, Bold should be "Press the Gesture Area and B at the same time." There is no work-around.
    ►Select All - To select all on a PC, press Ctrl - A , on a Treo press Menu - A . When enabled, Select All should be "Press the Gesture Area and A at the same time."
    ►Copy - You can copy text you are editing (see Typing section) but not text you cannot edit like Internet information.

    Music - Developers are working on fixes.
    ►Slider - The slider bar is enabled for videos but not for music.
    ►Landscape - You can watch videos in landscape mode (sideways) but not music graphics.
    ►Lyrics - On an iPhone, tap the album graphic for lyrics. Pre Lyrics are there but not visible.

    Center Button LED
    The Center Button is not enabled to indicate a call, email, text, etc. but could be!

    Internet
    ►PDF's - Can't open or save a pdf. Open workaround: Open website on a PC and email the pdf to the Pre.
    ►Flash - Pre can't view Abode Flash graphics. There is no work-around.
    Internet
    ►Weather Radar - a Homebrew app, WxRad proves that the Pre can show animated radar and full screen!

    Email
    ►Landscape mode is not yet enabled but could be easily enabled: Open email and type "RocknRollHax". Nothing displays but now landscape works!
    ►Notification - missing but a Homebrew app, My Notifications lets you change the notification sounds.
    ►Forwarding - not enabled but users have enabled text and email forwarding!

    - Craig
  11. #31  
    The on-screen keyboard thing is wrong. That was found to be a part of WebShell.

    There IS an onscreen keyboard that I believe developers are working on adding more to.... that'd be the menu that pops up every time you hit the symbol button.
  12. geodosch's Avatar
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    #32  
    I purchased a Pre 2 days ago, though I wished I'd discovered some of the threads like this first. It isn't that I didn't do some research first by checking the various forums, but until I started searching on specific issues, I wasn't aware of these problems that would be such big issues for me.

    This was an upgrade from my Treo 755p with Sprint, and I have 30 days to return the Pre and switch back to my Treo. I'm trying very hard to dig through the issues and find workarounds, at least until (hopefully) these things are fixed in a future update. Though that would be somewhat of a leap of faith, because of course there's no guarantee that Palm will even care about fixing all of the issues. Pre owners who never used a good PDA probably won't care about these things, since they never had them to begin with. So will Palm be worried about keeping their loyal Palm users happy? Or will they be satisfied with just selling to the masses that care more about flash than substance?

    Showstoppers

    No Bluetooth transfer This was the first missing feature I discovered. I opened my contact list and started looking for the option to 'Send Contacts', only to discover it doesn't exist. This is a major issue, as I have no desired to manually enter all my contact names and numbers into my car manually.

    No recurring tasks Of course I'm not the first to point this out, but tasks are one of the most basic applications in any PDA. And this is one of my primary reasons for owning a PDA.

    Animated GIFs Again, this has been pointed out before, but not being able to view animated GIFs in the browser is unbelievable. I use my Treo to access weather radar images, and being able to see the movement of storms is key.

    No Categories This is another biggie, especially for Memos. On my Treo, all my memos were organized into categories. Now I just have one big mess. The post-its on a corkboard is cute, but with so many memos it makes trying to find what I want even worse.

    Other major shortcomings:

    No Speed Dial screen: This was an extremely useful feature on the Treo, where speed dials and app shortcuts could be put on the screens.

    No Agenda view: Again this is a very basic feature of PDA, and the first thing I would look at each morning. It showed me current and upcoming events, and Tasks that were due.

    Calculator: This app is pathetic compared to what's on the Treo, which had scientific modes, conversions, different number bases, etc. (and yes, I use those features)

    Workarounds

    Since I didn't want to be too quick to give-up on the Pre, I tried to figure out workarounds to my major issues. For the recurring tasks, I tried using repeating calendar events instead. This would hopefully just be a temporary solution, since calendar events cannot be marked as 'complete', but it was better than nothing. However, when I tried doing this, I ran into another major issue: bugs with the calendar.

    First, there's the issue of transferred events showing-up on the wrong dates, which I found other posts complaining about. But even with newly-created events I've had problems:

    - I set-up a new 'Every Friday' event, but it appears on Thursday.
    - I created a new event for Friday, 8/7/09. In the Custom Repeat, it offered me the option of making repeat on 'Second Friday of the month'. Since the 7th was the first Friday, that's an obvious bug. I tried with an event on 9/4 and had the same problem.
    - There is also no repeating option for the last day, such as 'Last Saturday of the Month'.

    Tasks problems
    On my Treo my tasks were also organized into categories, though when they transferred over they were all lumped together. However, I was happy to discover that the tasks can be organized into lists-- I just had to do that manually after the transfer. Annoying, but just a one-time thing.

    Each time a Task list is opened, the view defaults to 'All'. This is idiotic, since 99% of the time I want to see what I need to do. So I switch to 'Remaining' view, which is great, until I leave the list then come back in, and it has reverted back to 'All'.

    One of the third-party apps that I most use on my Treo is Checklist. There isn't one yet for the Pre, but since tasks are organized into lists, I thought I could use that. And Tasks has an option to "Mark All...", and the can be set to Completed or Incomplete. Perfect! I thought I had a winner here, until I realized the first problem: there's no way to import tasks. Okay, I could type them all back in. But then I found the next problem: when the view is set to 'Remaining', when a task is checked it doesn't disappear from the list. In fact, if I go back to 'View' and re-select 'Remaining', they still don't disappear. It's necessary to switch to a different view, then switch back to 'Remaining' to update the display. IMHO, this is definitely a bug.

    Mail issues
    As previously pointed out, there's no way to do a 'Select All' then delete to get rid of a bunch of messages. I did find I could delete them from the inbox list by flicking them to the right... much better than opening them individually, but still not idea.

    I also discovered that even if I have a mail account set to check mail manually, it continues to download messages. Another bug.

    One overall frustration I have is the dearth of application menus. Yes, they're there, but they are painfully lacking. On the Treo, even the most basic apps would have multiple menus for selecting options, preferences, etc. It seems that most of the Pre apps the menus are limited to 'Edit' and 'Help', with the former always being Copy/Paste/Delete, even if there is nothing in the app that can be used with.

    I do like the Pre, but these issues are making it very hard to want to permanently part with my Treo. If anyone else has figured out workarounds to alternatives for my issues, I'd greatly appreciate your input.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by geodosch View Post
    One overall frustration I have is the dearth of application menus. Yes, they're there, but they are painfully lacking. On the Treo, even the most basic apps would have multiple menus for selecting options, preferences, etc. It seems that most of the Pre apps the menus are limited to 'Edit' and 'Help', with the former always being Copy/Paste/Delete, even if there is nothing in the app that can be used with.
    This one is solely the developers' faults. Yes, the defaults are the edit and help menu, but it takes one tiny little line to get rid of the defaults, and another line or two to add another item. There's no reason people should be leaving in edit if there's no place to use it, but I think it's one of those things that gets overlooked.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by GTMI1 View Post
    The Pre is great. But if they don't fix the stupid alerts going off while ON a phone call. It may be a deal breaker.I waited a long time for the Pre to come out. Which also means Palm had a long time to fix these problems spoken of here. Palm has a following of people that have specific needs. Many of the Palm users are business oriented. They should have consulted with them as they developed the Pre. Imho
    I do love that there are so many new apps on the homebrew arena. Way to go and thumbs up to all the "developers".
    For sure this is a huge issue. Horrible for business, imagine being on a call and the client keeps hearing Ding Ding!

    PALM, NOTIFICATIONS WHILE ON A CALL SHOULD COME THROUGH THE EARPIECE, NOT THE SPEAKER!!!!!
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mnlitig8r View Post
    My open letter to Palm (which I trust reads the items posted about its products on message boards such as this one):

    I just switched from the Treo 755p to the Pre because my Treo keyboard stopped working after giving me reliable service for as long as can be reasonabley expected. I liked the Treo, a lot in fact, but figured that since I can only upgrade phones every 18 months (or so) with the Sprint “subsidy,” I'd take the plunge for the "new and improved" Pre.

    Now that I’ve had the Pre for several weeks, and while there is much I like about it, I can't believe that there are so many great features that were on my Treo that are not on the Pre. Please, Palm, upgrade the OS to bring these back:

    1. Allow for the creation of different mail folders for non-web based e-mail. I loved that I could create several folders for saved e-mails with VersaMail and really hate that if I want to save an e-mail on the Pre, I have to keep it in my in-box unless I use something like gMail where I can set up the different folders via the web. I use POP3 mail so this is not an option.

    2. Allow different alarm settings for different alarm events. I don't need to hear a chime when my Pre is charging, or when I ignore a phone call. I know I ignored the call; the chime is merely an annoyance. I'd like to be able to silence these but have a chime when a new text message is received. Allowing different sounds for different events (e.g., calendar alarms, text messages received, voice mail messages received) was also on the Treo but missing from the Pre. Why?

    3. For text messaging, bring back Quick Text. It's pain to have to type "On a call but will call back soon" every time the situation arises. Again, one step forward but several big steps back.

    4. How can you not allow the mail trash folder to be emptied in a way that is faster than swiping each and every e-mail? This is almost criminal! I use POP3 mail service, so when I delete the message off my server it does not delete it from my Pre's mail trash folder. This is a huge shortcoming, especially given that my employer does not use spam filtering, so I get a ton of e-mail.

    5. Why. . . . .is. . . . .the. . . . . Pre. . . . .so. . . . .darned. . . . . slow? I notice it most on the calendar, and of course it is most troubling on the calendar. There’s nothing like having to wait several seconds while trying to quickly scan through my calendar for setting an appointment.

    6. Can someone explain why the recurring events like birthdays keep getting mysteriously moved to a day earlier? I can only say, “Well, at least I’m the first one to wish you a happy birthday” so many times.

    7. The Treo phone allowed for speed dial items and then had a separate “extra digits” button. This was great for calling my office and getting my voice mail messages. Since my office phone is answered by a human being who then transfers me into my voice mail after some brief idle chit-chat, I can’t just insert a few pauses and have it work.

    8. Okay, this might be the single most frustrating of all of the frustrations on my list: No ability to search the calendar. Again, the Treo had it but the Pre doesn’t.

    9. There is no way to sync tasks or notes. Why?

    10. There is a menu item for moving mail from one folder to another, but it does not work. Why?

    I really want to like the Pre. It’s sleek, has some fantastic features and, quite frankly, I’ve loved every Palm device I’ve ever owned dating back to my Palm II. I’ve owned all of the Palm-OS phones, but this is the first time I am contemplating a switch to a Blackberry. Hopefully Palm will make some fixes to keep they customer base loyal or it won’t have a customer base at all.
    Thank you very much for covering most the frustration I have been having since switching to the Pre -- you said it best "why take one step forward only to take two (although I would argue three or more) steps backward?!!!"

    I would add one note about the calendar. You mention the slowness, but my experience is far worse in that any time I enter or modify a calendar event, I can't get the calendar to "redraw" for two to twenty minutes!

    There are many other ridiculous annoyances about the Pre -- I could over look them all if the calendar worked well -- so I will be investigating other phone/pda options as well -- after being a Palm user for many years.

    Good luck with yours.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by mnlitig8r View Post
    I get that with progress often comes change. That said, there were several features on the Treo that could have been built upon in the Pre instead of just removed. Either Palm didn't ask its customers what would have made a good thing better, or they did but spoke with customers with different wants than me.
    I agree -- why add all the bells & whistles if the core features of a PDA aren't useful (or worse yet, aren't even usable). If they didn't want to keep the basics, they shouldn't have marketed it as such.
  17. #37  
    WebOS is not PalmOs
    IE is not Safari
    Wii is not XBox
    Burger King is not McDonalds

    If you want what you want then get it....Dont get mad at McDonalds because you really wanted a Whopper....the Treo Pro or whatever is available...

    Palm obviously didnt want to redo PalmOS....WebOS has zero code from PalmOS so why should they have the same features??...Palm wanted a fresh start so they made a fresh start...

    I came over from Blackberry so maybe its easier for me to get that I am dealing with a different animal...I understand that I have to change my thinking to get the best out of the device...stubbornly wishing the pre did things the blackberry way is not gonna cut it....

    So to all you people entrenched in PalmOS methodology get over it....you are not going to influence Palm very much they are gonna take WebOS in the direction they want to...
  18. geodosch's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by dj ozone View Post
    WebOS is not PalmOs
    IE is not Safari
    Wii is not XBox
    Burger King is not McDonalds
    There's a basic flaw with the above analogy. Each of the above is a competing product or brand, except for WebOS and PalmOS, which are from the same company. WebOS is the successor to PalmOS, which means if someone who uses a Palm device wants to get a new Palm device, they have little choice. It's not BK vs. McDonalds, or Acura vs. Lexus. It's 2009 Lexus vs. 2010 Lexus. And if Lexus buyers were told "Yes, the 2010 model doesn't have a radio, because we started from scratch with the new model year", do you think that's acceptable?

    Quote Originally Posted by dj ozone View Post
    Palm obviously didnt want to redo PalmOS.... WebOS has zero code from PalmOS so why should they have the same features??... Palm wanted a fresh start so they made a fresh start...
    And when they took that path, they had to realize that there was a lot of ground they'd have to cover again. And even if all the apps had to be redeveloped, they had done them once, so they certainly had a baseline to work from.

    Quote Originally Posted by dj ozone View Post
    I came over from Blackberry so maybe its easier for me to get that I am dealing with a different animal... I understand that I have to change my thinking to get the best out of the device... stubbornly wishing the pre did things the blackberry way is not gonna cut it....
    Again, we're not talking crackberry vs. Palm... it's Palm vs. Palm, which is a very different situation. And since you aren't a former Treo user, you have little say in the matter (walk a mile in our shoes, etc., etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by dj ozone View Post
    So to all you people entrenched in PalmOS methodology get over it....you are not going to influence Palm very much they are gonna take WebOS in the direction they want to...
    So you think Palm should take the attitude to f- all the loyal users who supported them all these years.
  19. #39  
    I came over from Blackberry
    Ahh. That explains why you don't understand.
    Powered by Palm since 1996...
    Palm Pilot > Palm V > Tungsten T > Trēo 650 > Centro > Prē > Prē F102

    ...gave up and switched to iPhone4 7/15/10
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by tlaz View Post
    Remember, the people in this forum are the power user/phone geeks. We live and breathe every minor feature an detail, and subject phones to an enormous amount of scrutiny. Palm wants us to use the Pre, but they REALLY want the huge numbers of people who have NEVER even had a smartphone. Remember Colligan discussing "the fat middle" of the market? They want a phone for the masses. So, no cut and paste. No folders for emails, very basic calendar, and an inability to customize PIM funcitons TO START. But a sexy look, ease of use, great browsing/Wifi, synergy etc that will wow first-time smartphone users.

    Sadly, the must-haves for us aren't must-haves for the target audience - people who don't have smartphones yet. But it will come. 95% of what people are clamoring for here are small software tweaks that Palm or 3rd parties will do.

    I wavered and sweated over every detail before leaving my 755p. Now I'm so glad I did. The upside of the Pre far exceeds the downside, imho.
    finally, a voice of reason. well said.
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