A claim by Palm that the Pre can do stand alone GPS

[darnell]

From Palm KB article: How do Location Based Services (LBS) and GPS work on the Palm Pre phone? Article ID: 30907

NOTE Location Services on your Palm® Pre™ phone provide information about your location to applications, such as Photos or Google Maps. Your Pre phone automatically chooses Assisted GPS (A-GPS) or Standalone GPS (GPS) technology to pinpoint your location . Assisted GPS is a technology that can acquire location information from your wireless service provider and Wi-Fi networks. Standalone GPS may require additional time in order to acquire a signal, but it can acquire an a GPS signal without an active wireless or Wi-Fi connection. Standalone GPS is useful when you are not connected to Wi-Fi or in a wireless coverage area . While you may be able to acquire a GPS location using Standalone GPS you still need an active wireless or Wi-Fi connection to use applications such as Google Maps. The following settings allow you to control various aspects of Location Services on your phone.

I thought Palm never asserted that the Pre was a stand alone GPS and assisted GPS device, but it seems they have made that claim. Not very easy to find, but they've made the claim. (I mean they didn't say it in print advertising, but off in a KB article.)

Now, given people who travel outside of the USA, to places with no CDMA cell signal have said they can't get a GPS lock no matter what they try. It leaves the question of whether Palm is once again using their Treo 800w definition of stand-alone GPS and Assisted GPS (A-GPS) [Difference between A-GPS and GPS on a Treo 800w Article ID: 17267]? (Which is not true stand alone GPS, given a cell signal is required for system time.)

So far, nobody has been able to have authentic success when doing the following simple test:

Originally Posted by bpdamas

Try the methods that were previously stated in this thread and then let us know. Have wifi off, turn phone into airplane mode, shutdown phone. After reboot keep wifi off and in airplane mode and wait 5, maybe 10 minutes. Then try and get a GPS lock by typing ##gps# (##477#) into the phone dialer. Let us know the results after this.

The most anyone has been able to produce is the following:

Originally Posted by Beanis

Doing those steps while I was in Europe still gave me results, they were just the last results the phone had. Rebooting doesn't wipe them.

He'd have to look at the coordinates, move a great distance, reboot, and look again.

I think Palm has (again) put themselves in an interesting position. Because they have (again) claimed a device can do both stand alone and assisted GPS. While no one standing outside of the USA with a rebooted Palm Pre can get a GPS lock.

(Keep in mind, when in the USA, even when outside of Sprint range, CDMA aGPS devices can get system time via a Verizon signal. And Verizon has coverage in many places Sprint does not. Even some places many claim have no cell signal at all.)

[Kupe]

Without stand-alone GPS software, you won't be able to use the GPS in stand-alone mode anyway. Once a program like TomTom or Garmin Mobile is developed for the Pre, you'll be able to use its stand-alone GPS capabilities.

[diomark]

I can confirm it can.. I used the gps in Europe. (saved my butt once when I was lost.. fyi I was using it w/ an open wifi..)
-m

[Sean-Troy]

Darnell did you make the switch or are you still lovin the Touch Pro I gave up the Touch Pro for the Treo Pro & the Treo Pro for the Pre will most likely give up the Pre for Windows Mobile 7 or switch between the two anyway how are things over at ppcgeeks I may have to pick up my Touch Pro and show people that WM isn't a bad os not so user friendly out the box is what they say I say it depends on the user just saying

[Zaki]

The pre does have a standalone gps folks. We have gone through this topic before as well. As long as you are outside, connected with at least wifi, gps works.

[jdale]

I would expect airplane mode to shut off all transmit/receive functions on the phone. That would include GPS. So if GPS doesn't work in airplane mode, that doesn't really demonstrate anything.

[Elysian893]

Why would testing the GPS in airplane mode get a fix? You're in AIRPLANE mode, no signals, its not gonna work, its a faulty procedure from the start.

[darnell]

Originally Posted by Sean-Troy

Darnell did you make the switch or are you still lovin the Touch Pro I gave up the Touch Pro for the Treo Pro & the Treo Pro for the Pre will most likely give up the Pre for Windows Mobile 7 or switch between the two anyway how are things over at ppcgeeks I may have to pick up my Touch Pro and show people that WM isn't a bad os not so user friendly out the box is what they say I say it depends on the user just saying

I'm enjoying every day with my Touch Pro. My only personal debate is whether I'll cave and get a Touch Pro 2 if the CDMA version really has a 3.5mm jack built in . I'm really trying to hold out till more devices with faster processors are on the market. With WM 6.5 ROMs, the Touch Pro is great to use. I'm using the 8/1 build of EnergyROM at the moment.

I've seen some disappointed Pre owners, who come here upset, because of various things they didn't know before buying. And then someone often responds to them saying things like "you should have known that before buying" and the OP gets bashed a little for not doing their homework. I've been doing my homework, sometimes sharing what I find here. I can't get a Pre, it simply does not do enough. I don't have time to sit on the cutting edge, just because it's new, I don't want to wait for things to come later. I want something that does what I want right now today and the Touch Pro is meeting that well for me .

(And I don't like how Palm is tracking Pre.)

Originally Posted by jdale

I would expect airplane mode to shut off all transmit/receive functions on the phone. That would include GPS. So if GPS doesn't work in airplane mode, that doesn't really demonstrate anything.

Originally Posted by Elysian893

Why would testing the GPS in airplane mode get a fix? You're in AIRPLANE mode, no signals, its not gonna work, its a faulty procedure from the start.

Sorry, but no device with stand alone GPS capabilities works like that. Even in airplane mode, GPS apps should be able to wake up the GPS to receive sat signals. When someone is in Europe, you can't use the phone, might as well use airplane mode instead of draining battery. You who take issue with the procedure, I wonder if you've ever tested stand alone GPS on any device before Pre? Some of us have been doing these kinds of things for some time.

I think Kupe has a point in mentioning there are no stand alone GPS navigation program yet for the Pre. And without a MicroSD slot, there's no telling if companies like Garmin ever will make anything for the Pre, given they have always made apps that are dependent on their own dedicated MicroSD card, that the program is locked to. Companies like Garmin use the MicroSD card with a lock as sort of a hardware dongle, to verify the software user has a valid license to use the software. Even if you try and copy their software to another MicroSD card it won't work. (I know there are hacks around locks, but the point is the app maker does not support it.)

If the Pre has true stand alone GPS, there is no navigation software yet to support it.

[xtn]

No maps of anu kind to make use of the data in airplane mode, but you can open up the gps data screen and see your coords etc.

[meyerweb]

Originally Posted by Zaki

The pre does have a standalone gps folks. We have gone through this topic before as well. As long as you are outside, connected with at least wifi, gps works.

If you need wi-fi, it ain't standalone, sorry. A standaone GPS works with ONLY the GPS signal. Buy any Garmin and you'll see the difference.

A standalone GPS will work at the top of a mountain in Colorado, with the nearest data signal a hundred miles away. Will a Pre do that?

[donatom3]

Originally Posted by meyerweb

If you need wi-fi, it ain't standalone, sorry. A standaone GPS works with ONLY the GPS signal. Buy any Garmin and you'll see the difference.

A standalone GPS will work at the top of a mountain in Colorado, with the nearest data signal a hundred miles away. Will a Pre do that?

You don't need WiFi to get a GPS fix.

Alot of this comes from the misconception of GPS vs. Navigation.

All GPS does is gives you your coordinates direction and speed. Navigation is the part that has the fancy maps and routing built in.

So on the Pre it does have standalone GPS, but to navigate you are going to need a data connection at the moment.

[06MS6]

Originally Posted by darnell

I'm enjoying every day with my Touch Pro. My only personal debate is whether I'll cave and get a Touch Pro 2 if the CDMA version really has a 3.5mm jack built in . I'm really trying to hold out till more devices with faster processors are on the market. With WM 6.5 ROMs, the Touch Pro is great to use. I'm using the 8/1 build of EnergyROM at the moment.

I've seen some disappointed Pre owners, who come here upset, because of various things they didn't know before buying. And then someone often responds to them saying things like "you should have known that before buying" and the OP gets bashed a little for not doing their homework. I've been doing my homework, sometimes sharing what I find here. I can't get a Pre, it simply does not do enough. I don't have time to sit on the cutting edge, just because it's new, I don't want to wait for things to come later. I want something that does what I want right now today and the Touch Pro is meeting that well for me .

(And I don't like how Palm is tracking Pre.)







Sorry, but no device with stand alone GPS capabilities works like that. Even in airplane mode, GPS apps should be able to wake up the GPS to receive sat signals. When someone is in Europe, you can't use the phone, might as well use airplane mode instead of draining battery. You who take issue with the procedure, I wonder if you've ever tested stand alone GPS on any device before Pre? Some of us have been doing these kinds of things for some time.

I think Kupe has a point in mentioning there are no stand alone GPS navigation program yet for the Pre. And without a MicroSD slot, there's no telling if companies like Garmin ever will make anything for the Pre, given they have always made apps that are dependent on their own dedicated MicroSD card, that the program is locked to. Companies like Garmin use the MicroSD card with a lock as sort of a hardware dongle, to verify the software user has a valid license to use the software. Even if you try and copy their software to another MicroSD card it won't work. (I know there are hacks around locks, but the point is the app maker does not support it.)

If the Pre has true stand alone GPS, there is no navigation software yet to support it.

TomTom made an app for the iPhone, there is no reason that they couldn't make one for the Pre. There are a few apps with preloaded maps on the iPhone and it obviously doesn't have a memory expansion slot.

Originally Posted by meyerweb

If you need wi-fi, it ain't standalone, sorry. A standaone GPS works with ONLY the GPS signal. Buy any Garmin and you'll see the difference.

A standalone GPS will work at the top of a mountain in Colorado, with the nearest data signal a hundred miles away. Will a Pre do that?

He needed WiFi because the Pre doesn't have an application that comes with preloaded maps. If he was getting a GPS lock then the GPS hardware can act as a standalone, meaning it doesn't need to triangulate with cell towers. No, the device as a whole can't act as a standalone GPS unit right now, but only software is needed to fix that, not hardware.

[donatom3]

Originally Posted by xtn

No maps of anu kind to make use of the data in airplane mode, but you can open up the gps data screen and see your coords etc.

And that is proof that the Pre has standalone GPS.

[Zaki]

Originally Posted by meyerweb

If you need wi-fi, it ain't standalone, sorry. A standaone GPS works with ONLY the GPS signal. Buy any Garmin and you'll see the difference.

A standalone GPS will work at the top of a mountain in Colorado, with the nearest data signal a hundred miles away. Will a Pre do that?

I have a garmin and have used many standalone versions. The reason why you need a wifi for pre is because maps and navigation is over data network, it is not built in as a seperate software. Without wifi/data network, you can still get your coordinates, it just doesn't work as a "navigation". So I suppose people are confusing "GPS" with "Navigation".

[donatom3]

Originally Posted by Zaki

I have a garmin and have used many standalone versions. The reason why you need a wifi for pre is because maps and navigation is over data network, it is not built in as a seperate software. Without wifi/data network, you can still get your coordinates, it just doesn't work as a "navigation". So I suppose people are confusing "GPS" with "Navigation".

Thank you. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that GPS is not navigation. GPS data is translated by a navigation device to plot your location on a map. Back in the old days of GPS you had a reciever that gave you your coordinates you pulled out a paper map and found out where you are.

[darnell]

Originally Posted by meyerweb

If you need wi-fi, it ain't standalone, sorry. A standaone GPS works with ONLY the GPS signal. Buy any Garmin and you'll see the difference.

A standalone GPS will work at the top of a mountain in Colorado, with the nearest data signal a hundred miles away. Will a Pre do that?

Originally Posted by 06MS6

TomTom made an app for the iPhone, there is no reason that they couldn't make one for the Pre. There are a few apps with preloaded maps on the iPhone and it obviously doesn't have a memory expansion slot.



He needed WiFi because the Pre doesn't have an application that comes with preloaded maps. If he was getting a GPS lock then the GPS hardware can act as a standalone, meaning it doesn't need to triangulate with cell towers. No, the device as a whole can't act as a standalone GPS unit right now, but only software is needed to fix that, not hardware.

Until there is an actual stand alone GPS program for Pre, we still can't be 100% certain. Some have said they think Pre is using the WiFi connection to assist somehow. I have not said that, but I'm saying we can't yet be 100% certain.

Consider the results of someone's test:

Originally Posted by checko07

OK, I found that it only pinpoints a pretty accurate location only when the Pre is connected to a wifi network. When Wifi is off and Airplane is on or off I get no connection via GPS.

Sorry for the delay in answering, but my wife is already angry that I took the laptop and Pre with me on Vacation.

Nobody is saying that apart from both phone and WiFi, that they can pull coordinates after rebooting (in airplane mode), then move around and see those coordinates accurately change.

Maybe TomTom will make something.

Originally Posted by donatom3

And that is proof that the Pre has standalone GPS.

Has anyone that got their coordinates using the test I noted in the first comment moved around a significant distance to see the coordinates change and move, to prove the GPS is working and not just showing some previously stored values?

I'm just saying, some of us have seen some games from Palm in this regard before, so you'd want to be certain. Test vigorously and thoroughly. The test in my first comment does not involve using phone or WiFi at all and should work if the Pre can do stand alone GPS. Aside from that, a stand alone GPS app is needed, that can be used without phone or WiFi.

[clipcarl]

I went to Singapore a couple of months ago and the GPS worked just fine in Google Maps.

[casiouser]

GPS stands for
Global Positioning System
meaning
it is a system for finding your position on the globe.
It does not mean maps or anything else, just your current coordinates in the world.
Maps aide us so we know where we are in the world and where we want to go.
As said before, once TOM TOM or someone else provides maps we wont have to rely on a service carrier or Wi-Fi.

I hope someone does develop them sooner then later.

[santos]

I was just on a flight and that gave me the opportunity to see if the GPS works without a signal.

I first turned on airplane mode and went to ##GPS# to get a fix, which it did:



However, the fix wouldn't update. The same values remained regardless of how much I had traveled.

I then rebooted my Pre with airplane mode still enabled. When I went to ##GPS# to get a fix, I got an error:



I tried multiple times but kept getting the same error.

Does this mean there really isn't standalone?

[darnell]

Originally Posted by santos

I was just on a flight and that gave me the opportunity to see if the GPS works without a signal.

I first turned on airplane mode and went to ##GPS# to get a fix, which it did:



However, the fix wouldn't update. The same values remained regardless of how much I had traveled.

I then rebooted my Pre with airplane mode still enabled. When I went to ##GPS# to get a fix, I got an error:



I tried multiple times but kept getting the same error.

Does this mean there really isn't standalone?

Perhaps the first "fix" was some cached value from previous use of the GPS? I mean given even after a reboot you could not get a fix. (Interesting altitude was zero.)

Honestly, I WANT the Pre to have working stand alone GPS, because I'm sick of GPS being locked down as much as some others are, if not more than them. (Read that article, because while that speaks about WM, it's regarding any and all device operating systems. We already know the hardware makers are not locking anything down. Qualcomm, TI and probably others are making mobile chips that do true stand alone and assisted GPS.) But sadly those results are not how a true stand alone GPS device performs. I could name several that do true stand alone and assisted GPS and in such a test, they get a lock repeatedly and when you're mobile they track the movement.