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  1.    #81  
    Darreno1 and others who may take some level of opposition to my assertions thus far, this is the agenda you need to be worried about and it involves Palm as much as MS and others. The crippling of features a piece of hardware is capable of performing, for the sake of carriers driving YOU to their carrier based premium services. For some of us, this has been a long standing concern. And it involves WAY MORE than just GPS, although with Pre it's just the GPS at this point. There are devices that have hardware for things like FM radio reception, that was intentionally crippled and it's continuing with more features and devices continually. If you let them do it freely with GPS, they'll keep it up and prevent other devices from having other features free from carrier dependence. (Yes I've lodged my complaints with Sprint as well as Palm.)

    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    I've seen conflicting reports so far. I need to see more data before jumping to conclusions.
    You mean you've seen someone claim they got the GPS working in a country like Europe without Wifi? Please show me where someone said this. I've seen no conflict in repports. Everyone using the Pre outside the USA can't get the GPS to work unless on WiFi and then with WiFi it seems the location is derived via their Internet connection source.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Darreno1 and others who may take some level of opposition to my assertions thus far, this is the agenda you need to be worried about and it involves Palm as much as MS and others. The crippling of features a piece of hardware is capable of performing, for the sake of carriers driving YOU to their carrier based premium services. For some of us, this has been a long standing concern. And it involves WAY MORE than just GPS, although with Pre it's just the GPS at this point. There are devices that have hardware for things like FM radio reception, that was intentionally crippled and it's continuing with more features and devices continually. If you let them do it freely with GPS, they'll keep it up and prevent other devices from having other features free from carrier dependence. (Yes I've lodged my complaints with Sprint as well as Palm.)
    As long as there isn't any false advertising upfront, I see no problem with this. It may seem sleazy to disable certain functions for the purpose of locking people in, but in the end, we DO have a choice. There are tons of phones and carriers to choose from and tons of devices to fill in the missing features. Now if the carrier did a bait and switch regarding services where they decided to charge for things advertised as free or disabled certain features after the fact, then that would be cause for concern imo.

    Another thing to consider is it might be cheaper for the carrier or device maker to have all the features added in manufacturing (and disable the ones that aren't in the feature set for that product) rather than having to customize each model.

    Now regarding standalone GPS on the Pre, I could see where some will claim the kb article IS false advertising but like I said before, it could just be a difference of opinion is to what standalone is or they just goofed. Those really concerned about that article should ask Palm about it. Personally, I'm not that concerned for the reasons mentioned in the previous post.


    You mean you've seen someone claim they got the GPS working in a country like Europe without Wifi? Please show me where someone said this. I've seen no conflict in repports. Everyone using the Pre outside the USA can't get the GPS to work unless on WiFi and then with WiFi it seems the location is derived via their Internet connection source.
    I meant conflicting reports in general. Some are claiming there is no standalone as if it can't do it at all. And we do agree after it's awaken, it can function on its own. Also no one can say for sure it's cripped or there isn't the capability for it to wake up via 3rd party software. So for those reasons, I'm not jumping to any conclusions yet.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  3.    #83  
    Once Palm made the claim of stand alone GPS, no matter where they made it so long as in public, it became an issue of potentially deceptive advertising. The consumer does not have to see "every" claim, but just one that influenced their purchase decision. Sprint is not on the hook, but Palm has definitely placed themselves in a vulnerable position, again.

    Stand alone GPS is not a matter of opinion, rather it is an industry respected function, which Palm has tried to redefine, possibly for the sake of keeping a certain wireless service provider happy. You who are OK with this redefining of terms, allow us who feel differently to further investigate.

    I meant conflicting reports in general. Some are claiming there is no standalone as if it can't do it at all. And we do agree after it's awaken, it can function on its own. Also no one can say for sure it's cripped or there isn't the capability for it to wake up via 3rd party software. So for those reasons, I'm not jumping to any conclusions yet.
    There is no conflict that the Pre GPS receiver fails to work outside the USA apart from phone and WiFi. The device is in my opinion (which was verified with the Treo 800w and I suspect Palm will eventually verify it in writting regarding the Pre) crippled by design. The question is whether Palm will provide a fix, or the development community will be able to devise a hack. So far, when Palm cripples the GPS, the development community is 0 for 1. Rather than seeing whether the development community might go for 0 for 2, I'd rather encorage Palm to allow the hardware to do what it's fully capable of doing.

    It's been almost a month and Peef has not produced a workable fix via his angle and nobody else has via any other angles. Those trying any option outside the USA come up empty. If in a pinch, it would be nice when a Pre owner is outside the USA, to not need to lug a seperate GPS unit overseas and instead use what is in the Pre.

    If an unlocked GSM version of the Pre is made, I would not be surprised if it has working stand alone GPS.
  4. #84  
    ^^I was going to ask if you posted this topic on the Palm forums yet, but it looks like someone beat you to it:

    Re: Palm Pre Stand Alone GPS - webOS Hardware - Palm Support Community

    Hopefully someone at Palm will respond.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  5. Daemon's Avatar
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    #85  
    For whatever it's worth, I was deep in the mountains today
    with absolutely no coverage, Sprint or otherwise. I power cycled
    the Pre, and then did everything I could to try to get a GPS fix.
    It won't do it. When I dial ##GPS#, and hit Get Fix button,
    it waits a minute or so, and then produces a GPS Error.
    Doesn't even show last known position. It just errors out.
    I've got a video of the whole gory process if anyone isn't
    yet convinced.

    One could argue that this is fine for Sprint, because I couldn't call 911
    anyway with no signal, so why would I need my position. Of course with
    an app like Go To, I could have been creating waypoints anywhere along my
    back country trip and with a true standalone GPS, I could actually get a fix
    and go back to last known waypoint etc.

    ian
  6. #86  
    As I mentioned in my last post, there are reports that once the Pre has a location fix, it will continue to report your location correctly, even if you venture completely out of cell and WiFi range, as long as you don't reset the Pre or let it go to sleep so that it loses an accurate location fix. Does anyone dispute those reports? Those reports, if true, strongly suggest that the Pre COULD work as a stand-alone GPS if either (1) the timeout period were increased (this could potentially feed into the battery saver issue) or (2) the user had the option of inputting an approximate location to give the GPS unit an initial position estimate.

    It would be interesting if Daemon repeated his test starting from a location with cell coverage, got a good position fix there, and prevented the Pre from going to sleep as Daemon traveled, would the Pre keep reporting Daemon's location accurately?
    Last edited by bobodobo; 08/30/2009 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Fix grammar
  7.    #87  
    Daemon, I think you should post the video on a YouTube account, just to keep the pressure on Palm to make a definitive statement. Palm keeps up with the Internet chatter and if the issue is getting enough "talk" along with people making direct inquires to them, they eventually will speak up. Once they finally talk about how they've set the GPS to work, you all will know what you're dealing with in a little more detail.

    You've got to keep the "talk" going though. Here, on Palm's forum, at other sites (like YouTube), by inquires to Palm corporate and so on. It does work eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    As I mentioned in my last post, there are reports that once the Pre has a location fix, it will continue to report your location correctly, even if you venture completely out of cell and WiFi range, as long as you don't reset the Pre or let it go to sleep so that it loses an accurate location fix. Does anyone dispute those reports? Those reports, if true, strongly suggest that the Pre COULD work as a stand-alone GPS if either (1) the timeout period were increased (this could potentially feed into the battery saver issue) or (2) the user had the option of inputting an approximate location to give the GPS unit an initial position estimate.

    It would be interesting if Daemon repeated his test starting from a location with cell coverage, got a good position fix there, and prevented the Pre from going to sleep as Daemon traveled, would the Pre keep reporting Daemon's location accurately?
    Have you given this a read yet? The Pre GPS could be implemented in a similar manner, with Google Maps readings when on WiFi coming from the Internet connection source as someone already mentioned.

    Does the Pre version of Google Maps tell you how many sats you're in range of? And when tested in a place like Europe with WiFi, does the Pre Google Maps app mention any number of sats when giving a location lock while outside of the USA.
  8. Daemon's Avatar
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    It would be interesting if Daemon repeated his test starting from a location with cell coverage, got a good position fix there, and prevented the Pre from going to sleep as Daemon traveled, would the Pre keep reporting Daemon's location accurately?
    Yes it would. I already did comparable tests to this effect, back a few
    pages. Others have as well. But the moment your phone goes to
    sleep, GPS is gone until you have cell coverage again.

    ian
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Yes it would. I already did comparable tests to this effect, back a few pages. Others have as well. But the moment your phone goes to sleep, GPS is gone until you have cell coverage again.
    Ah OK sorry I missed those... anyway that's sort of good news, it seems (to me anyway) that the Pre hardware is capable of stand alone GPS, it just needs some different software to get the initial fix (or recover it after sleep) without cell or WiFi coverage. Let's hope that Palm or a 3rd party develops that.

    I wonder, could one trick the Pre into thinking its receiving a WiFi signal and then encode into that bogus signal your approximate location?

    Or... sometimes the WiFi location is WAY off... in those cases can the Pre still give you an accurate location fix? (It may take longer of course since the initial position guess isn't close.) If so then maybe feeding ANY bogus WiFi location would eventually get you a location fix.
  10.    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    Ah OK sorry I missed those... anyway that's sort of good news, it seems (to me anyway) that the Pre hardware is capable of stand alone GPS, it just needs some different software to get the initial fix (or recover it after sleep) without cell or WiFi coverage. Let's hope that Palm or a 3rd party develops that.
    You might want to read some of the prior posts and provided links. We've covered a good bit of this already. Yes the hardware is capable according to its manufacturer specs. We know this. What we don't know is whether Palm physically tweaked the hardware to prevent stand alone GPS, which is doable although less likely than them probably having implemented a cell signal dependence at some software level. Even with the old Treo 800w, we don't know for certain whether they did it via mangling the hardware or in the software, although its more likely that Palm is doing it in the software. It's usually cheaper to do it at some level of the software than to make physical changes in each chip.


    I wonder, could one trick the Pre into thinking its receiving a WiFi signal and then encode into that bogus signal your approximate location?
    Any claims of a successful WiFi tests have all involved using Google Maps and found to likely display the location of the Internet connection source, rather than the user's actual GPS coordinates. When using just WiFi, the ##477# test does not provide accurate coordinates, it won't even update position at all, as was reported here and here. (Others have said the same, but that's 2 claims, they're all the same regarding WiFi. If not using Google Maps, which appears to approximate location based on Internet connection source when on WiFi without a working GPS, true stand alone GPS apps don't work on Pre with the WiFi apart from a cell signal initializing the GPS.)

    So it's most likely, that the GPS is not working at all via WiFi. This means, it's very possible the GPS is only actually turning on with a cell signal and possibly needing a system time assist like the Treo 800w. You can't fake the system time, unless you've got a means to feed the sat time within a fraction of a second. I forget the exact fraction of a second value, but the system time fed must be highly accurate, to remain in perfect sync with the GPS sats. That would require a seperate true stand alone GPS unit, or a device that can pull system time from an area cell signal. Providers like Sprint pull the GPS sat system time direct from a GPS sat into their network.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Any claims of a successful WiFi tests have all involved using Google Maps and found to likely display the location of the Internet connection source, rather than the user's actual GPS coordinates. When using just WiFi, the ##477# test does not provide accurate coordinates, it won't even update position at all, as was reported here and here.
    Yeah I realize that the WiFi can't give you a more accurate fix than telling you where the WiFi you're communicating with is... and even then it could report a ISP location many miles away, rather than the actual location of the WiFi. My thought was that perhaps that would be enough for an initial position guess, but maybe that's not the important thing that the Pre wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    ... it's very possible the GPS is only actually turning on with a cell signal and possibly needing a system time assist like the Treo 800w. You can't fake the system time, unless you've got a means to feed the sat time within a fraction of a second. I forget the exact fraction of a second value, but the system time fed must be highly accurate, to remain in perfect sync with the GPS sats. That would require a seperate true stand alone GPS unit, or a device that can pull system time from an area cell signal. Providers like Sprint pull the GPS sat system time direct from a GPS sat into their network.
    So the Pre is missing something that "true" stand alone GPS units have that enables them to obtain the system time? Does that spell doom for any hope of a software change resulting in "true stand alone GPS" for the Pre?

    Sorry for my somewhat naive questions and thanks for your patience in answering...
  12.    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    Yeah I realize that the WiFi can't give you a more accurate fix than telling you where the WiFi you're communicating with is... and even then it could report a ISP location many miles away, rather than the actual location of the WiFi. My thought was that perhaps that would be enough for an initial position guess, but maybe that's not the important thing that the Pre wants.
    Stand alone GPS units don't work in that manner. What helps speed up initializion of a stand alone unit is if it's fed the location of the GPS satellites ahead of time, rather than a near location of the device user. QuickGPS does in HTC devices. That app is also used by some CDMA Treo Pro owners, to speed up getting a position lock when they are away from cell signals. With QuickGPS, the GPS satellite location data must be updated at least once every 7 days via a data connection, or it's not useful. So that involves a reliance on data for a breif moment once every 7 days or less. HTC devices (the Treo Pro was built by HTC) can get a GPS location lock without it, but it does take longer. With QuickGPS, I've gotten locks faster than aGPS when in clear sky conditions.


    It's best to have both aGPS and stand alone GPS capability, so you can have the benefits of both methods. aGPS is great when indoors. Outdoors, something like QuickGPS with a unit that can do stand alone is what I find works best. When you don't have something like QuickGPS, aGPS gives faster start times outdoors. But even if you have a device that can do aGPS, you want to be able to get a lock in cases where you're not near any compatible cell signals, that's where having true stand alone functionality helps.

    And people in areas hit by storng storms often find the cell signals are dead. But it's nice to have GPS that works in such cases . I know recently, I was on a drive through an area where that happend, but having Garmin Mobile XT with a device that does have stand alone GPS functionality, turning off the main roads at times was no problem. So long as there was a road, I had a means to find it .

    Qualcomm IS working on being able to have location fed to a GPS receiver in the manner you mentioned (via Internet connection), but that has not been released yet. I did see a news release from Qualcomm about them working on it a while back. But that's not out yet. I honestly thought perhaps the Pre had it when people mentioned Google Maps was giving locations via WiFi in Europe, but once I noticed ##477# is not working properly on the Pre for people in Europe regardless of whether they are on WiFi or not, I knew it does not have it.

    So the Pre is missing something that "true" stand alone GPS units have that enables them to obtain the system time? Does that spell doom for any hope of a software change resulting in "true stand alone GPS" for the Pre?

    Sorry for my somewhat naive questions and thanks for your patience in answering...
    Stand alone GPS devices pull the system time directly from a GPS satellite. For some reason, likely as is detailed in articles like this one, Palm has tied the GPS in devices they have a heavy hand in to cell signals. I think this is something Palm likely does at some level of the software and they probably could change it if they wanted. But I think it's fully their intended design, as is mentioned in that article. (It's not just something done in some Windows Mobile devices and several WM devices have fully working stand alone GPS. It really seems to be something done by some device makers. aGPS only currently works on CDMA devices, carriers like Sprint and Verizon. This is why it will be interesting to see how future GSM Palm devices will perform regarding their GPS functionality.)
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Here's Peef's post:
    No offense to him or you but he doesn't understand -- at all -- what is going on with implementation. At time she is using GPSOne behavior descriptions but doesn't seem to get the fact that GPSOne has been in the past incorrectly implemented and or partially implemented by Palm on its devices --specifically causing Standalone GPS to fail in ways no other maker had trouble with.

    More specifically Palm only did this with its own self designed devices (800w and Pre), the Treo Pro which was engineered by HTC doesn't have the problem with GPSOne and broken standalone.

    Also, Assisted GPS, of which there are a score of combination of mode and delivery (the 800w can get assistance from the 1x voice channel, evdo and wifi). ANYTHING of the seven or eight types of data, if required through any of those modes kills standalone -- and any claim that it is standalone gps.

    It is pretty simple: will it start and work with the birds alone? if yes it is standalone. If not, and it requires an 1x, evdo, hspa, wifi etc it is some form of forced aGPS and therefore not a standalone gps capable smartphone
  14.    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    It is pretty simple: will it start and work with the birds alone? if yes it is standalone.
    Just to translate for you who mentioned this is new territory for you. "Birds" is the short term often used when referring to GPS Satellites.

    Any GPS receiver that needs anything more than the GPS Satellites alone to ever start does not have stand alone capability.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Stand alone GPS devices pull the system time directly from a GPS satellite. For some reason, likely as is detailed in articles like this one, Palm has tied the GPS in devices they have a heavy hand in to cell signals. I think this is something Palm likely does at some level of the software and they probably could change it if they wanted. But I think it's fully their intended design, as is mentioned in that article. (It's not just something done in some Windows Mobile devices and several WM devices have fully working stand alone GPS. It really seems to be something done by some device makers. aGPS only currently works on CDMA devices, carriers like Sprint and Verizon. This is why it will be interesting to see how future GSM Palm devices will perform regarding their GPS functionality.)
    Oh wow so the Pre itself is easy to root, but a stand-alone GPS capability of the hardware (if it exists, which seems somewhat likely based on what you've said) needs to be "jailbroken"... Swell!
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    Oh wow so the Pre itself is easy to root, but a stand-alone GPS capability of the hardware (if it exists, which seems somewhat likely based on what you've said) needs to be "jailbroken"... Swell!
    Yeah. The question is where the problem arises. There are half a dozen causes that could be fixed, and some that would not be able to.

    There is also the distinct possibility it is intentional.
  17. #97  
    I agree about the GPS. I manually went in and turned it on to try something other than the Sprint navigation app to turn it on. It still said"are you where the sky is clear?" I could see the entire sky, I was in NAPA as well as San Francisco area, where we had very little phone service. why does it need phone service if it is a GPS system? That doesnt quite make sense to me. Would suck if you were in the middle of, I dont know say Napa Valley LOL.
    The wifi was off too, just to make sure it was just the GPS.
    Last edited by srlake314; 09/07/2009 at 08:26 PM. Reason: forgot to put something else in :).
  18.    #98  
    Just in case any of you missed it, it appears that Ebag333 got himself a Pre and may have discovered how to enable stand alone GPS in the device.

    I certainly hope he has. His testing methods look valid. Either way, he gets a hat tip for the effort.

    I sure hope enabling stand alone GPS is no more harder, if not easier with other webOS devices.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Just in case any of you missed it, it appears that Ebag333 got himself a Pre and may have discovered how to enable stand alone GPS in the device.

    I certainly hope he has. His testing methods look valid. Either way, he gets a hat tip for the effort.

    I sure hope enabling stand alone GPS is no more harder, if not easier with other webOS devices.
    I did not miss it, thank goodness. It looks like it might have stand alone after all. Hopefully someone who is planned to go out of the country can verify with this hack enabled. It appears that ebag333 got it working so we know it at least works in 1 case.

    I still have yet to apply this hack though. Reason: I haven't bothered to get my 32 bit computer up and running. You don't happen to know anyone that can make 64 bit drivers? I tried a little bit ago to sign them myself and do some other things but it seems too complicated for me to completely dive into and figure out.
  20. #100  
    Hi,

    I am thinking about buying palm pixi, here in europe. But i need gps navigation. Google maps with navigation donīt work in europe and besides, data plans are horrible here (pricy and with strickt fup). So what i need is a offline gps navigation. Something like tomtom or sygic...

    Is there a gps nav for palm (webOS) with preloaded maps?

    Thanks a lot...
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