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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    ^I believe in your case the gps was never on to begin with. Right now it would seem, as reported, something has to wake up the chip. But once it's up it gets an accurate fix without a signal. In your case without a cdma signal, the gps was still idle. At the airport your Pre more likely used the wifi station as a reference point instead of the gps.
    Regardless if it was on or not it should not matter to whether Palm claims it has stand alone gps. You should be able to travel to a location and use gps on the phone if it has stand alone gps. Period. If Palm does not include something to "wake up" the gps chip then they cannot claim it has stand alone gps, at least not right now. As soon as they release the magic "wake up app" (them or a third party) then they can claim it has stand alone gps.
  2. dave75's Avatar
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    #62  
    The 800w GPS needed the cell towers to get an accurate time to work. After the time was established the GPS would work with or without cell towers. If there was no cell tower to get an accurate time at startup, the GPS did not work at all. I do not call that standalone and neither does the rest of the world. It sounds like this is the same implementation that Palm has used for the Pre. Like I said previously, they did not advertise standalone GPS on the Pre, so it doesn't really bother me. I would love standalone, but I doubt it has it.
  3. #63  
    When my 1st PREmature attempt to activate went wrong SPRINT called me, said Verspyzon was holding number. Later trouble was solved by talking to Palm's Phillipine tech "Vincent #C17630" mentioned PRE had ".. assisted GPS. Uses a few satellites and the towers."

    PS. Read the EULA for GoogleMaps. You must agree to let them track you. Boss wanna know where& when you come & go?
  4. #64  
    From a quicky test walking home I found that on Airplane mode no GPS information is received, it only gives you the last reading it had before you put it into Airplane mode.

    So it looks like turning Airplane Mode on won't adequately test it's GPS capabilities, if that shuts off all radios. The best thing to do would be to have someone who can drive out in the middle of nowhere, with no reception whatsoever. Leave Airplane Mode Off and check to see if you can get a fix and if it changes if you move around.
  5. Daemon's Avatar
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    #65  
    See my extensive tests from a couple pages ago.

    I think it's pretty clear what's going on. GPS needs the network to get a fix
    but can actually run for a while without it, even in airplane mode (until
    the phone goes to sleep). Apps like Sprint Nav can keep it alive continuously
    but definitely need the network to get started. Anyone who's actually used a
    regular GPS device would not classify this behavior as "standalone GPS".

    ian
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    Regardless if it was on or not it should not matter to whether Palm claims it has stand alone gps. You should be able to travel to a location and use gps on the phone if it has stand alone gps. Period. If Palm does not include something to "wake up" the gps chip then they cannot claim it has stand alone gps, at least not right now. As soon as they release the magic "wake up app" (them or a third party) then they can claim it has stand alone gps.
    We can argue this all day. I think it comes down to what one's definition of standalone GPS is. If you examine what they said, they're not wrong imo. The GPS can function in the absence of a CELL signal. The question is whether it can start with no assists from the cell towers. Doesn't seem like it right now.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    We can argue this all day. I think it comes down to what one's definition of standalone GPS is. .
    No, the Pre's GPS is not standalone plain and simple. Don't confuse "dedicated GPS" meaning the device type, with Standalone GPS which refers to whether a gps will work with satellites alone or is dependent on another network!.

    Standalone is a industry terr and refers to the the ability of the Device to function without forced carrier or mobile phone network dependence.

    This is hardly trivial. Smartphones such as the touch pro, touch pro2, treo pro etc will work for GPS on 100% of the globe and the Pre will work for GPS on 5% of the globe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaki View Post
    The pre does have a standalone gps folks. We have gone through this topic before as well. As long as you are outside, connected with at least wifi, gps works.
    The pre does not have standalone GPS if you need wifi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Without stand-alone GPS software, you won't be able to use the GPS in stand-alone mode anyway. Once a program like TomTom or Garmin Mobile is developed for the Pre, you'll be able to use its stand-alone GPS capabilities.
    Kupe that is thoroughly wrong. There are literally scores of applications where GPS is used by a smart device for things other than full turn by turn navigation!

    There are scores of apps for exploiting your coordinates and the list is growing.

    EG you can tag your photos with gps coordinates. I recently traveled to europe and used my Sprint treo pro to tag my grandparents graves with their exact coordinates and embedded them on the pictures -- something I cannot do with the Srint Pre nor can I do with my normal $500 camera.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    No, the Pre's GPS is not standalone plain and simple. .
    According to you, maybe. In the other thread Peef seems to disagree and his post was more believable.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    According to you, maybe. In the other thread Peef seems to disagree and his post was more believable.
    If Peef was correct when he concluded:
    Quote Originally Posted by pEEf View Post
    So, in conclusion; I believe the Pre has a GPS system that can be used in true stand-alone mode, but is possibly hindered by the ongoing hunt for better battery life.
    A solution would be to simply plug the Pre into a car or wall charger when in Europe and the GPS would work fine because it would have no battery issues. You would be able to use something like the Sprint Portable Power Pack when outdoors in Europe and run the GPS with no problems.

    Peef has never tested outside the USA and Peef has never done a proper test of the GPS. All of Peef's testing features using an already warm GPS and/or keeping WiFi on with an application that is likely getting location via the Internet connection, as someone already mentioned.

    To me, Peef will be more believable once he's taken a trip outside the USA to Europe, soft resets his Pre and then tries using the GPS with his full slate of hacks apart from a WiFi signal. Then I'll find Peef to be more believable, because the people who are doing the most valid tests are doing it outside the USA, away from any compatible CDMA signal (Sprint and Verizon) and away from WiFi. (Yes, your Pre very likely can use Verizon signals for the GPS system time, just like the Treo 800w. And to their credit Verizon has phone signal coverage in much of the USA. You don't have to be a member of a wireless network to pull system time.)

    Given the reported testing results so far, here's the likely answer for how the Pre GPS works.
  10. Tyndall's Avatar
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    #70  
    Do. Not. Care.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by aolbites View Post
    The best thing to do would be to have someone who can drive out in the middle of nowhere, with no reception whatsoever. Leave Airplane Mode Off and check to see if you can get a fix and if it changes if you move around.
    The results of that test have been reported here and the result is that you need cell or WiFi to get an initial location estimate, but from then on as long as you don't let the Pre go to sleep or lose GPS signal the GPS will continue to work and give you an accurate location, even if cell and WiFi coverage are lost.

    Also, I'm not sure why the Pre would need the towers or WiFi for accurate time in order to get a location fix. My Garmin eTrex has no internet or WiFi connection whatsoever and it will get a location fix just fine. Methinks that what the Pre needs is not the time but instead an initial estimate of its location via cell or WiFi before it will even try to determine your location via the GPS satellites. Of course, if you don't have a good initial guess of your location, even a true stand-alone GPS will take longer to get an accurate location fix, but eventually it does. I wonder why the Pre doesn't give you the option of just waiting longer for an initial GPS fix, nor (like most standalone GPS devices do) give you the option of inputting your approximate location to give the GPS an initial guess.

    I would. not. care. about stand alone GPS if I never traveled outside of Sprint and/or WiFi coverage areas. But I do travel outside those areas so I. do. care.
    Last edited by bobodobo; 08/27/2009 at 03:16 PM. Reason: Problem with link
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    We can argue this all day. I think it comes down to what one's definition of standalone GPS is. If you examine what they said, they're not wrong imo. The GPS can function in the absence of a CELL signal. The question is whether it can start with no assists from the cell towers. Doesn't seem like it right now.
    OK so you have sad it behaves as if it has no standalone GPS, we know it doesnt, and yet you then say it acmes down to definitions.

    Standalone GPS means no network dependence. So it doesn't come down to one's definition, it comes down to the definition, and standalone is not working.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    According to you, maybe. In the other thread Peef seems to disagree and his post was more believable.
    According to EVERYONE.
    PEEF did not disagree with me at all. Did he test his workaround in Europe? I did, and it doesn't work.

    that is the definitive test for standalone -- does it work in Europe? It does NOT.

    And you can tell from his terminology that he is getting caught up in what the chip should do according to qualcomm -- do you even realize that Palm itself has diabled qualcomm's capabilties in the past?
    Last edited by aero; 08/29/2009 at 08:34 AM.
  14. santos's Avatar
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    #74  
    I'm taking a trip to Germany at the end of September and plan on bringing my Pre with me. I'll be able to test to see if ##GPS# gives me fixes without a Sprint signal.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    OK so you have sad it behaves as if it has no standalone GPS, we know it doesnt, and yet you then say it acmes down to definitions.
    Who's we? If you have some inside info from Palm, spill it.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    According to EVERYONE.
    PEEF did not disagree with me at all. Did he test his workaround in Europe? I did, and it doesn't work.
    Until I hear or read that a standalone program cannot make the GPS function on its own from credible sources (not those who seem to have an agenda), I'll take a wait and see attitude.

    BTW, Peef explained quite clearly why it may not work in Europe if the phone goes to sleep.



    And you can tell from his terminology that he is getting caught up in what the chip should do according to qualcomm -- do you even realize that Palm itself has diabled qualcomm's capabilties in the past?
    So what if Palm disabled it in the past? The questions are, is it asleep in the Pre and just needs the correct software to function on its own, or is it indeed permanently disabled/crippled. No one seems to have a definite answer on that yet.
    Last edited by darreno1; 08/29/2009 at 03:20 PM.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by santos View Post
    I'm taking a trip to Germany at the end of September and plan on bringing my Pre with me. I'll be able to test to see if ##GPS# gives me fixes without a Sprint signal.
    Here's Peef's post:

    Quote Originally Posted by pEEf View Post
    Disclaimer: I am an EE (Electrical Engineer), but I do not work for Palm or Qualcomm, so there is limited information available to me.

    I took a look at the published architecture of the Pre and found that the cellular and GPS functions are controlled by the Qualcomm MSM6801a CPU. This is a custom ARM variant that runs the AMSS firmware and implements cellular voice, data, GPS, Power management, and even battery charging. Because "Airplane Mode" puts the MSM6801a in sleep mode, this also affects the GPS. I do know that if you run a specific command to the MSM6801a, it will initiate wakeup, even if in airplane mode. Without access to the AMSS source code, I cannot do a proper analysis of how the power-management affects the GPS subsystem, but after studying the Qualcomm documentation, they specifically mention that the GPS can be used in "enhanced stand-alone mode".

    For the non-technical: There are 2 main processors in the Pre; one is the main CPU that runs WebOS. This is the TI OMAP3430. The second is the Qualcomm MSM6801a. These are both ARM architecture based. The OMAP is more powerful, but the Qualcomm CPU offloads many tedious functions so the OMAP is free to deal with the user experience.

    I have found that when the Pre is in a no-service area it goes into a low-power search mode to conserve the battery. This mode may very well affect the GPS functionality, but in my tests it was still able to generate accurate location, speed, and heading information in the total absence of CDMA signals. When I used my hack (Patch webOS Radio Power Switch - WebOS Internals) to place the MSM6801a in sleep mode, I lost GPS updates, although it still repeated the last known position. When I fired up Google Maps (via WiFi), it seemed to re-awaken the MSM6801a and generate a position update.

    The power-management is complex on the Pre, and we are on the third update now (version CC1.2 build 334) of the AMSS firmware that was flashed during the WebOS 1.1.0 update. Each version seems to drastically change the way power management works; I suspect Palm (and probably Qualcomm) are working hard to improve the battery life in the Pre.

    Qualcomm calls their GPS implementation "GpsOne" (gpsOneŽ, Qualcomm gpsOneŽ, Location Based Service - QCTConnect.com), and it's obvious to me that the WiFi/Bluetooth have nothing to do with GPS, and cannot be used in any way to assist GPS functionality.

    So, in conclusion; I believe the Pre has a GPS system that can be used in true stand-alone mode, but is possibly hindered by the ongoing hunt for better battery life.

    Case in point: I have noticed that after the Pre has entered low-power mode even once, the TeleNav (Sprint Navigation) application will refuse to find a GPS location most of the time unless you either reboot, or fire up Google Maps first. It seems the Google maps application issues a command to the GPS subsystem to enable a lock, while the TeleNav doesn't. I will do some research sometime soon and see if I can't figure out how to patch TeleNav to prevent this problem.

    Once I determine how Google is doing it, I believe we can use that method in stand-alone applications to generate a lock even without CDMA.

    Hope this helps!

    If you turn on airplane mode, it may not work unless the GPS can be re-awakened. Anyway looking forward to your findings.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  18.    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by santos View Post
    I'm taking a trip to Germany at the end of September and plan on bringing my Pre with me. I'll be able to test to see if ##GPS# gives me fixes without a Sprint signal.
    Also try a stand alone GPS app like the one Daemon mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Until I hear or read that a standalone program cannot make the GPS function on its own from credible sources (not those who seem to have an agenda), I'll take a wait and see attitude.

    BTW, Peef explained quite clearly why it may not work in Europe if the phone goes to sleep.
    Everybody who has tried using the GPS outside the USA without WiFi have already reported it does not work. I've seen several reports from people who went to various locations in Europe and Canada. They've all reported trying various ways. It's most likely not a power issue as Peef suspects. As I've already mentioned, starting the device connected to a power source, like car or AC would cause the GPS to work if it was a power issue. And if the GPS won't start with the phone asleep, that's not stand alone GPS. The Pre GPS receiver can't start when away from phone and WiFi signals, so by definition, the GPS industry standard definition, the device does not have stand alone GPS.


    No one seems to have a definite answer on that yet.
    There is disagreement on the answer, but regardless of any dispute here, we are at least now at a point where we all agree there is something keeping the Pre GPS from working when away from cell and WiFi signals. So now would be a good time to start making more inquiries to Palm. Ask on the Palm forum, send e-mails to Palm tech support, send letters to Palm corporate, if you want to get the full details. We did get the answers regarding the Treo 800w after asking enough questions.

    The simple truth is, that the Pre GPS receiver won't work outside the USA when away from compatible phone and WiFi signals and Palm has not provided a means to enable it. While claiming in their own knowledge base article that the Pre has stand alone GPS.
  19.    #79  
    And by the way, many Treo 800w owners claimed Palm would enable that device to have working stand alone GPS, but Palm never did.

    My only "agenda" here is that I'm hoping you Pre folks can get Palm to stop crippling their devices. It's a sad trend that has been occuring with devices made by various companies including Palm. Like many here, I've owned many a Palm device, so I'd like them to do better.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post

    Everybody who has tried using the GPS outside the USA without WiFi have already reported it does not work. I've seen several reports from people who went to various locations in Europe and Canada. They've all reported trying various ways. It's most likely not a power issue as Peef suspects. As I've already mentioned, starting the device connected to a power source, like car or AC would cause the GPS to work if it was a power issue. And if the GPS won't start with the phone asleep, that's not stand alone GPS. The Pre GPS receiver can't start when away from phone and WiFi signals, so by definition, the GPS industry standard definition, the device does not have stand alone GPS.
    I've seen conflicting reports so far. I need to see more data before jumping to conclusions.


    The simple truth is, that the Pre GPS receiver won't work outside the USA when away from compatible phone and WiFi signals and Palm has not provided a means to enable it. While claiming in their own knowledge base article that the Pre has stand alone GPS.
    Palm also claimed the GPS needed a wireless service to function like I posted earlier in the thread. So which should one believe? The one they advertised on the front page of their site or the one that's buried in the knowledge base?

    And by the way, many Treo 800w owners claimed Palm would enable that device to have working stand alone GPS, but Palm never did.

    My only "agenda" here is that I'm hoping you Pre folks can get Palm to stop crippling their devices. It's a sad trend that has been occuring with devices made by various companies including Palm. Like many here, I've owned many a Palm device, so I'd like them to do better.
    While your thread has sparked an interesting discussion and peaked my curiosity, I have no beef with Palm with regards to standalone GPS as they advertised it needed a data service to begin with.

    Maybe they were intentionally trying to mislead people in the knowledge base (seems unlikely since they said something seemingly contradictory in their advertisement), or they meant standalone in the sense that the GPS chip can get a fix without assistance (after it was initialized), or they do have plans to allow full standalone functionality later. Or lastly, they simply goofed. Who knows? I'd like it to have it, but that would be just icing on cake for me.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
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