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  1. dave75's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Palm never advertised standalone GPS or stated it in the manual.
    And there lies the difference between the Pre and the 800w. The 800w DID claim to be standalone. I do not wish to re-live those threads, very painful memories. I hope there is standalone, but I'm not going to be upset if it's not there.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    Palm never advertised standalone GPS or stated it in the manual. So most people would not even be aware of it. Your analogy is bogus because the Pre does have GPS. It's not like Palm said there was GPS and then left it out. And of course I would not accept any product that's missing features that were falsly advertised. But it wasn't in this case unless you consider that KB article as advertisement which I don't.

    Also, If I bought this phone because I thought it had standalone GPS, I'd be sure to test it out within the first 30 days.


    Regarding Standalone GPS:
    This thread is inconclusive imo, but if it is found to not have it or it's indeed crippled, then Palm should not mention it anywhere or enable it.
    My analogy is not bogus in relation to this thread. If I were debating whether the Pre had stand alone gps I would be posting in this thread. Another reason my analogy is not bogus because in it the car does have heated seats. Unfortunately that feature can only be utilized when there is sunlight on the seats but the seats are heated.

    Also, whether or not it is advertised has nothing to do with the fact that Palm claims the Pre has stand alone GPS capabilities. That would be like saying the phone is supposed to be able to make calls, they list on their website that it can make calls, it ends up not being able to make calls, but it is okay because it was never advertised to make calls. You are correct in suggesting that there is no case in regards to false advertising, because that is definitely not the case. However, Palm cannot get upset about returns or requested repairs to fix the "stand alone" gps in someone's Pre.

    The KB article is from Palm and they specifically say that it has stand alone GPS although it might take longer to acquire a location. There can be no debate about this provided everyone looks at the link. The fact that they claim it has stand alone gps means it should have stand alone gps regardless if advertised in such a way. I guess I should just take my Pre to the nearest service center and try to get them to repair the stand alone feature on my phone that Palm says it has.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by dave75 View Post
    And there lies the difference between the Pre and the 800w. The 800w DID claim to be standalone. I do not wish to re-live those threads, very painful memories. I hope there is standalone, but I'm not going to be upset if it's not there.
    I agree that this is a different scenario than the 800w. I also don't necessarily care if it does or doesn't have stand alone. I just wish there weren't articles Palm put out there (like the one that darnell linked to) that is spreading false information about the capabilities of the phone.
  4. #44  
    Also, I think the most heated portions of the 800w woes was due to the definition of stand alone gps.

    Ultimately the following definition in the linked article gives a pretty clear cut definition to what stand alone gps is on the Pre.

    Standalone GPS may require additional time in order to acquire a signal, but it can acquire an a GPS signal without an active wireless or Wi-Fi connection. Standalone GPS is useful when you are not connected to Wi-Fi or in a wireless coverage area . While you may be able to acquire a GPS location using Standalone GPS you still need an active wireless or Wi-Fi connection to use applications such as Google Maps.
  5. jdale's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    [IMPORTANT UPDATE]
    I just discovered one quirky little interval where GPS works, with everything else off.
    Start with cell radio on - GPS on, make sure it has a solid GPS fix
    as indicated by Go To app updating every second.
    Then turn on Aircraft Mode.
    Go To app indicates that it still has an active GPS fix, and will update position as
    you move in realtime.
    HOWEVER.. the moment the phone goes to sleep once, it's done. No more GPS.
    It will not reestablish when you wake it back up.

    So perhaps Palm can claim they have standalone GPS, for typically about 30 seconds.
    That perfectly matches what pEEf said on 8/7 in http://forums.webosnation.com/showthread.php?t=188005 (post 171 in the thread, page 9), except that he noted Google Maps can wake the GPS back up.
  6. Rkolodz1's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    . . . If the Pre has true stand alone GPS, there is no navigation software yet to support it.
    Not totally true.

    Sprint navigation will use stand alone gps. When you start your route in a coverage area and then move out of coverage the phone has the route saved in it. The phone will continue to track you and you can follow the blue line. Since you are outside of coverage you will not download the maps or the street names so no voice directions.

    This happened to me when I had to drive to a very small town and had no signal for about an hour. Even though I didn't have a map the phone showed me moving on the blue line, even had to make a few turns. When I got back into coverage the phone downloaded the maps but did not do a re-route. I had stayed on course. Side bar. Without the navigation I would have been lost because I did not know where I was going.
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rkolodz1 View Post
    Not totally true.

    Sprint navigation will use stand alone gps. When you start your route in a coverage area and then move out of coverage the phone has the route saved in it. The phone will continue to track you and you can follow the blue line. Since you are outside of coverage you will not download the maps or the street names so no voice directions.

    This happened to me when I had to drive to a very small town and had no signal for about an hour. Even though I didn't have a map the phone showed me moving on the blue line, even had to make a few turns. When I got back into coverage the phone downloaded the maps but did not do a re-route. I had stayed on course. Side bar. Without the navigation I would have been lost because I did not know where I was going.
    It does the same on the Treo 800w, that does not have stand alone GPS either, but that happens because your GPS was already initialized. Telenav/Sprint Navigation is NOT a stand alone GPS app, it needs the data connection to get started.

    A real stand alone GPS app for the Pre was already found and used in testing.
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by jdale View Post
    That perfectly matches what pEEf said on 8/7 in http://forums.webosnation.com/showthread.php?t=188005 (post 171 in the thread, page 9), except that he noted Google Maps can wake the GPS back up.
    But that's just another test using WiFi and not really using GPS "stand alone". Notice Daemon used a true stand alone GPS app and when both phone and WiFi are off without the GPS being earlier initialized it won't start.

    I've told pEEf (privately) I think he's mistaken and I gave him some suggestions to do a more valid test, but he refused. He's not mentioning ever soft resetting between tests and won't test with phone and WiFi both off then resetting. But as I told him already, the truth will come out. If pEEf is right, he'll have the app to start the Pre GPS stand alone, but so far, nobody can get it started as a true stand alone GPS. And although pEEf thinks I'm wrong, he won't try my suggestions to prove whether he can get the GPS to work stand alone.

    I asked pEEf to "try" the test I mentioned in the first post and he refused. I've also told him about the need to soft reset between test, to ensure he's not using a "warm" GPS. People have been trying to use the GPS outsdie of the USA and can't get a thing unless they start up WiFi or the Phone, no matter if the device is in "lower power mode" or not. They can have the phone on or off it does not matter. Outside of the USA the only successful test involved having WiFi enabled, but that's not stand alone GPS. pEEf has used his GPS in the mountains, but there's no gurantee he was totally away from Verizon signals or that he soft reset before testing.

    I'm telling you, everthing I've seen from people who said they had successful tests mostly looks just like the talk from the Treo 800w forum.

    I can only say me and pEEf disagree and the truth will come out. I think Daemon's test with a true stand alone GPS app already showed it. Most who start the Pre without Phone and without WiFi can't get the GPS to start. A minority of those who tested said they have, but it only proves most Pre owners don't have stand alone GPS. I honestly doubt anyone does.

    Daemon has provided the app, give it a test, reboot with phone and WiFi already off and see what happens.

    (And it's really about time any of you who need stand along GPS start hammering Palm about this. It was not sold as a stand alone device in advertising [so you've got no case with Sprint], but Palm has stated in their own Knowledgebase article that Pre is a stand alone GPS device.)
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    My analogy is not bogus in relation to this thread. If I were debating whether the Pre had stand alone gps I would be posting in this thread. Another reason my analogy is not bogus because in it the car does have heated seats. Unfortunately that feature can only be utilized when there is sunlight on the seats but the seats are heated.

    Palm Pre Phone - Features, Details, Reviews : Palm USA

    Under the details section it clearly states (in regards to built-in GPS)

    "3 Coverage not available in all areas at all times. Requires data services at additional cost. Voice-activated, as-you-go, turn-by-turn directions sold separately. "

    If they truly were advertising stand alone GPS capability they would have stated that explicitly.




    Also, whether or not it is advertised has nothing to do with the fact that Palm claims the Pre has stand alone GPS capabilities.
    So far it's still inconclusive but it seems it does work in some situations so the claim as stated seems to be accurate.


    That would be like saying the phone is supposed to be able to make calls, they list on their website that it can make calls, it ends up not being able to make calls, but it is okay because it was never advertised to make calls. You are correct in suggesting that there is no case in regards to false advertising, because that is definitely not the case. However, Palm cannot get upset about returns or requested repairs to fix the "stand alone" gps in someone's Pre.
    They stated it has built-in GPS and it does. I don't see what the problem is.

    The KB article is from Palm and they specifically say that it has stand alone GPS although it might take longer to acquire a location. There can be no debate about this provided everyone looks at the link. The fact that they claim it has stand alone gps means it should have stand alone gps regardless if advertised in such a way. I guess I should just take my Pre to the nearest service center and try to get them to repair the stand alone feature on my phone that Palm says it has.
    You need to prove it doesn't have it first. But in any case, they'll probably end up brushing you off.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  10. Daemon's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by jdale View Post
    That perfectly matches what pEEf said on 8/7 in http://forums.webosnation.com/showthread.php?t=188005 (post 171 in the thread, page 9), except that he noted Google Maps can wake the GPS back up.
    I also had Google Maps running before I switched to Airplane mode
    and it did not wake the GPS up after the phone went to sleep and
    was re-awakened. And of course if you shut Google Maps down
    and restart it, it can do nothing at all, with no data connection.

    ian
  11. #51  
    On a flight from Seattle to Phoenix a couple weeks ago, I opened up the homebrew app, Pretrack before we took off, with my phone completely on to ensure it got a fix. I left everything alone and didn't enable airplane mode or anything (I know, shame on me). I believe Pretrack prevents the phone from sleeping fully, so that may have something to do with why it kept working... But interestingly enough, the gps kept functioning, updating the speed in Pretrack all the way up to cruising altitude and well into the flight, long after I had lost any traces of a cell signal.
  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvanDotPro View Post
    On a flight from Seattle to Phoenix a couple weeks ago, I opened up the homebrew app, Pretrack before we took off, with my phone completely on to ensure it got a fix. I left everything alone and didn't enable airplane mode or anything (I know, shame on me). I believe Pretrack prevents the phone from sleeping fully, so that may have something to do with why it kept working... But interestingly enough, the gps kept functioning, updating the speed in Pretrack all the way up to cruising altitude and well into the flight, long after I had lost any traces of a cell signal.
    Once the GPS has been started up, it will continue to work till turned off. (Same sort of reports were given in the Treo 800w forum just one year ago. It also has a Qualcomm GPSOne chip, but can't do stand alone GPS. Meaning the GPS can't start when no phone or WiFi signal is around.) The probelm comes if you're in a situation where you need to start up your Pre away from any phone or WiFi signals, but need the GPS to help you. (Away from phone signals includes being away from all compatible CDMA roaming signals [including Verizon, Cricket and others], like when outside of the USA.) If you can keep your Pre on from a time the GPS was earlier used, the GPS will keep working, even away from phone and WiFi, till the device is shut down. It's the GPS start up, that is showing signs of being "assisted".
  13. #53  
    I noticed on my trip that if I didn't have Sprint Service(no towers or very little), the Sprint Navigation wouldn't work. So much for GPS working!
    I could have really used it too. It would say "are your sure there is a clear sky". I don't know how much clearer it could be LOL.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    [url= Pre Phone - Features, Details, Reviews : Palm USA[/url]

    Under the details section it clearly states (in regards to built-in GPS)

    "3 Coverage not available in all areas at all times. Requires data services at additional cost. Voice-activated, as-you-go, turn-by-turn directions sold separately. "

    If they truly were advertising stand alone GPS capability they would have stated that explicitly.






    So far it's still inconclusive but it seems it does work in some situations so the claim as stated seems to be accurate.




    They stated it has built-in GPS and it does. I don't see what the problem is.



    You need to prove it doesn't have it first. But in any case, they'll probably end up brushing you off.
    Thank you for establishing that Palm contradicts themselves on their website. That is really all I got from what you posted. In the details section they do say what you quote. There is no debate about that. However, I was commenting on things that pertained to the OP. The OP is why I was saying that all I got from your post was that Palm contradicts themselves.

    The OP has a link that shows Palm defines GPS on the Pre as one way, the details section says another way, and I'm sure somewhere else on Palm's website says another thing. Ultimately if Palm does not intend GPS to act as shown in the OP then they should take that off of their website. Until then, I feel as it should have stand alone gps.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    Thank you for establishing that Palm contradicts themselves on their website. That is really all I got from what you posted. In the details section they do say what you quote. There is no debate about that. However, I was commenting on things that pertained to the OP. The OP is why I was saying that all I got from your post was that Palm contradicts themselves.

    The OP has a link that shows Palm defines GPS on the Pre as one way, the details section says another way, and I'm sure somewhere else on Palm's website says another thing. Ultimately if Palm does not intend GPS to act as shown in the OP then they should take that off of their website. Until then, I feel as it should have stand alone gps.
    Well with the OPs last post, it seems the GPS chip can indeed function on its own without a signal. The point of contention seems in how it's started which is nitpicking really. So IMO Palm isn't contradicting themselves. If that's accurate and the chip is able to function on its own, then all that's needed is a program to wake it up which has already been mentioned several times in this very thread.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  16. #56  
    IDK if it's true or false but someone in this thread stated that Pretracker is the app which could wake up GPS chip and thus be used to confirm or deny that Pre has a standalone GPS.

    Considering that the debate is still on is that info is incorrect?

    Sorry for being naive, but why not someone would just confront Palm and ask them directly?
  17. xtn
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Most who start the Pre without Phone and without WiFi can't get the GPS to start. A minority of those who tested said they have, but it only proves most Pre owners don't have stand alone GPS. I honestly doubt anyone does.
    The fact that the Pre will get a fix without any of the other radios on proves it has stand alone gps.

    Whether or not it works only from a warm state or after a reset does not define if the gps is stand alone... That only suggest an operational condition that we don't like.
  18. #58  
    I have a Pre in the Netherlands without CDMA coverage. The GPS is useless here because i do not have Cell coverage. The GPS works, but keeps telling me that i am in Boxtel, a town about 20 km's away. i tracked the GPS location reported by the Pre, and i cannot believe it is coincidence that the EXACT location is RIGHT on the red DOT accompanied with the name of the City as seen in Google earth (LAT 51.588467, LONG 5.326346) I think, my Pre guesses the location using WiFi, and ignores the GPS if there is no Cell coverage. If i Travel to Eindhoven airport, and connect to WiFi at the airport, the location is reported correctly. Hence, the software is not relying 100% on the GPS to locate the PDA. I think this is rather a feature that Cell towers assist in loacating a device, which allows locating it wile out of range of GPS sattelites, but i think Palm had the priorities wrong. The PDA should be able to correctly locate itself without Cell towers and/or WiFi. This is an serious issue IMHO, and should be corrected in the next release.
  19. #59  
    ^I believe in your case the gps was never on to begin with. Right now it would seem, as reported, something has to wake up the chip. But once it's up it gets an accurate fix without a signal. In your case without a cdma signal, the gps was still idle. At the airport your Pre more likely used the wifi station as a reference point instead of the gps.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  20. #60  
    No, the GPS was on all the time. I am figuring out for several weeks now why the PDA will not locate itself correctly, and did a lot of experimental tests. Even ##477# and the Test screens do not update even the time and date since the last boot and fix with at least 1 sat. regardless of WiFi is on, or off. Sometimes (and i have only seen it 2 times here at home) i get a decent fix, which dissapears after a minute. And yes, i have a clear view to the sky. ;-)
    Pity there is still no off-line navigation software for the Pre, like TT, of Garmin....
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