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  1. santos's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Perhaps the first "fix" was some cached value from previous use of the GPS? I mean given even after a reboot you could not get a fix. (Interesting altitude was zero.)

    Honestly, I WANT the Pre to have working stand alone GPS, because I'm sick of GPS being locked down as much as some others are, if not more than them. (Read that article, because while that speaks about WM, it's regarding any and all device operating systems. We already know the hardware makers are not locking anything down. Qualcomm, TI and probably others are making mobile chips that do true stand alone and assisted GPS.) But sadly those results are not how a true stand alone GPS device performs. I could name several that do true stand alone and assisted GPS and in such a test, they get a lock repeatedly and when you're mobile they track the movement.
    The altitude was 0 because I was still on the ground when the Pre first went into airplane mode (before takeoff). When I took the screenshot was after we were in the air, but it retained the old value before the reboot.

    Sucks. I wish it would work without signal too.
  2. dave75's Avatar
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    #22  
    I think some people here are very familiar with GPS and aGPS and navigation. Go look at the 800w GPS fiasco. Palm claimed it had standalone GPS, yet it required a network signal to get an accurate time. Many people claimed they tested it and "proved" it was standalone, yet it was not. So basically, I don't believe anybody here that says it is standalone GPS yet.
  3. #23  
    Is it possible that the hardware and software are capable but we're just seeing a bug?
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  4. jdale's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Sorry, but no device with stand alone GPS capabilities works like that. Even in airplane mode, GPS apps should be able to wake up the GPS to receive sat signals. When someone is in Europe, you can't use the phone, might as well use airplane mode instead of draining battery.
    There are totally separate questions here about what it does and what it should do. Would there be circumstances when it might be useful to turn off cellular and wifi but leave GPS working? Sure. However if the purpose of airplane mode is to turn off all radio transmission and reception that will include GPS. My understanding is that is similarly the case on the iPhone. Given that a major purpose of airplane mode is to make the phone ok to use on an airplane, and that many airlines do not permit the use of GPS (although some do), I think it's not an unreasonable jump to consider the possibility that airplane mode may turn off the GPS. Obviously if you were to get GPS signal while in airplane mode that would prove that it does not. Conversely, if GPS does not work in airplane mode that leaves two possibilities which have to be independently tested. Either the GPS is unable to work without additional information from cellular/wifi OR airplane mode has disabled it. You could determine which by specifically asking Palm whether airplane mode turns off GPS (the manual is silent on this), or you could check the code yourself.

    Palm certainly does claim that the GPS is standalone, Palm Support : Palm Pre Sprint - How do Location Based Services (LBS) and GPS work on the Palm Pre phone? It's possible that they are incorrect and I have no information as to that point nor do I have any opinion on the matter. I only question the thoroughness and validity of your procedure.
  5. Daemon's Avatar
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    #25  
    That is correct. Airplane mode *by definition* must disable all
    transmitting and *receiving* radios. Any radio that can receive
    a signal has a local oscillator that can potentially generate Rf
    interference at short ranges. Modern radios shouldn't generate
    any noise, but the *rule* is, that all radios be disabled on aircraft
    when they tell you to. That includes true standalone GPS receivers.

    So trying to test your GPS in Airplane mode is fundamentally flawed.

    I've been trying to test it when I'm deep in the mountains (but with
    a clear view of the sky) with little or no cellular signal and so far haven't gotten
    a fix, without some sort of data signal. With cellular only I'm usually getting
    the cellular triangulation fix, which can be literally miles off, when
    it can only see one tower.

    ian
  6. xtn
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    #26  
    Okay... I rebooted in airplane mode, pulled up the ##gps# data screen, clicked Get a Fif, and it got one. It doesn't update continuously, but while drivig down the road I CLICK get a Fix again and it does update with new coords, alt, and speed.

    xtn
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by dave75 View Post
    I think some people here are very familiar with GPS and aGPS and navigation. Go look at the 800w GPS fiasco. Palm claimed it had standalone GPS, yet it required a network signal to get an accurate time. Many people claimed they tested it and "proved" it was standalone, yet it was not. So basically, I don't believe anybody here that says it is standalone GPS yet.
    Yea, this is very much deja vu, but I think the Pre folks have an opportunity we former 800w owners never had. Although we 800w folks could prove that device did not have true stand alone GPS capability, we never had enough clout to make Palm fix it. Instead people who complained enough were either given a refund (like me) or Sprint gave them a free upgrade to a Treo Pro (because it does support true stand alone and assisted GPS). I think the Pre crowd has enough NUMBERS, that if they pressed hard enough, just maybe Palm might get it working as both stand alone and assisted GPS AND it may cause Palm to stop crippling the GPS. (Assuming the Pre does not have working stand alone GPS and so far the results are not consistent enough to prove it really does.)

    The last 2 devices Palm did any real deep coding on are the Treo 800w and the Palm Pre. The Treo Pro was mostly put together by HTC and all HTC WM devices have true stand alone and assisted GPS.

    When I talk with HTC Touch Pro owners who test stand alone GPS (once they are shown how to properly test), there is no debate, there is no mixed results where one person says one thing happened and another comes up with a different result, they all have working stand alone GPS and it works with assisted mode too. Same with the Treo Pro folks. (Treo Pro folks use the GPS in any mode via any test, even in the middle of places like India. No claims of it not working at certain times or certain places, because clear sky is the only requirement.) The fact that the results are highly inconsistent with testing of the Pre shows a real problem. People who have tested the Pre outside of the USA can't get a GPS fix unless they are on a WiFi connection, they can't get a fix otherwise, no matter what "mode" they try. Something definitely does not add up, but if/when somebody makes a real stand alone GPS app for Pre, it's going to clear up much of the debate. (We'll see what's said about the airplane mode test then, it's a valid test that works on devices with real stand alone GPS without fail .)

    If Airplane Mode really does turn off the GPS, try this. Have the Pre on with the phone on and all, get a GPS lock by typing ##gps# (##477#) into the phone dialer. Then turn on airplane mode without rebooting your Pre. Then again try to get a GPS lock by typing ##gps# (##477#) into the phone dialer. Move to another locaton and try again. If it keeps working, the GPS never turned off, because it remained in a "warm" state from the first fix and remains on till reboot. Meaning airplane mode does not turn the GPS totally off and it remains on. (People who try the airplane mode test without rebooting have already said they can do what I mentioned in this paragraph.)

    A lot of folks testing Pre have never had to do this sort of thing before, just like some of us experienced with the Treo 800w, but some of us know better now. It took literally MONTHS before Treo 800w owners admitted the stand alone GPS didn't work and then it took MONTHS to get a hand full of Palm support people to recognize it didn't work and then it took MONTHS for Palm to devise a statement, to try and cover their butts. (The Pre was being developed the entire time.)
  8. #28  
    ^^I still don't see what the big deal is. Even if it doesn't have it, the fact is, most people will be just fine with assisted GPS. Who cares if the Treo Pro or HTC have it? Good for them. I very much doubt the majority of Pre users would even care enough to complain.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  9. #29  
    Gee and because many people never travel outside the range of a Sprint signal, those that do should just accept that the device, for them, is crippled? Very charitable of you to assume everyone else's needs match yours.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    Gee and because many people never travel outside the range of a Sprint signal, those that do should just accept that the device, for them, is crippled? Very charitable of you to assume everyone else's needs match yours.
    In short, Yes. The GPS is a nice addition but it's a secondary function.

    Any reasonably sane person will not depend on their phone for GPS in situations where is true GPS is a must. At least not right now.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  11. #31  
    It seems that no one knows for sure if "Airplane Mode" disables the GPS or not. It would seem more likely that AM disables the GPS receivers because some airlines do not allow the use of personal GPS units. So I agree that AM is not a good test.

    It seems like the only good test is to go to a remote location where there is absolutely no cellular or WiFi signal of any kind, and operate the Pre in standard mode, NOT Airline Mode. (After all, this is when you would care if the Pre has standalone GPS or not... anything else is just an academic point.) If the reported location changes as one moves away from a fixed point and gives the original coordinates when one goes back to the starting point, then the Pre has working stand-alone GPS. One could also compare the GPS coordinates to those reported by a known standalone GPS unit. However, based on reading many of these confusing threads, some people have claimed that under these conditions the GPS works, and some claim it doesn't. (I don't have a Pre yet but I plan to get one soon... but lack of any stand-alone GPS capability might dissuade me.) But, I'm really not sure that any of these tests were done in a "fair" way.

    There are PLENTY of times when one would want to know one's location even if online maps and other information were not available: geocaching, hiking, foreign countries (mark your hotel so you can always find it no matter where you wander), geotagging of photos, etc. etc. etc.

    So... has anyone done a test like the one I suggest?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by santos View Post
    I was just on a flight and that gave me the opportunity to see if the GPS works without a signal.

    I first turned on airplane mode and went to ##GPS# to get a fix, which it did:

    [IMG]

    However, the fix wouldn't update. The same values remained regardless of how much I had traveled.

    I then rebooted my Pre with airplane mode still enabled. When I went to ##GPS# to get a fix, I got an error:

    [IMG]

    I tried multiple times but kept getting the same error.

    Does this mean there really isn't standalone?
    this is exactly how I tested it in europe multiple times and had the same results. Those coordinates are the last it had cached.

    For those that think airplane mode disables gps, you can test it in a place withoit wifi or cell signal and get the same results as above.
  13. Daemon's Avatar
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    #33  
    Why does everyone keep saying there is no pure non-nav GPS app?
    Install "Go To" from the Homebrew apps.

    Fire it up, give it one waypoint anywhere in the world and tell it
    to go there. Watch it update the lat/lon and horizontal accuracy
    once per second when it's got a decent GPS signal.
    If you see the accuracy anywhere over about 150 feet,
    it's using cellular triangulation rather than GPS.

    I often use Go To immediately after I enable GPS to know when I've got a GPS fix
    before I fire up Sprint Nav and start moving.

    ian
    Last edited by Daemon; 08/20/2009 at 01:30 AM.
  14. Daemon's Avatar
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    #34  
    Just ran a series of tests using ##GPS# and Go To
    Cell radio on - WiFi On - GPS enabled or
    Cell radio on - WiFi Off - GPS enabled
    ##GPS# gives accurate fix
    Go To updates continuously with high accuracy.

    Airplane mode - WiFi Off - GPS enabled
    ##GPS# returns last known cached position
    Go To never intializes

    Airplane mode - WiFi On - GPS enabled
    ##GPS# returns last known cached position
    Go To returns last known position and updates once a minute or so
    with exact same coordinates forever.

    Here's the other interesting thing about Airplane mode.
    If you go to Location Services and try to change the state of GPS
    either turning on, when it was off, or off when it was on, then exit
    Location Services and return, you'll see that GPS setting has reverted.
    In other words, you can't change it when Airplane mode is on. I suspect
    that's because it's really doing nothing at all. It just locks it down
    so it'll be whatever it was before when you turn off Airplane mode.

    I did verify though that it can get an accurate GPS fix
    with data off, and cell radio on, either on Sprint or Roam only.

    I've been in areas with no cell signal and could not get a GPS fix.

    The one test I'd like to try though is driving from an area
    with cell signal and active GPS fix, to an area with no cell signal.
    (basically perpendicular to any interstate highway for 10 miles or
    so out in the boonies will usually do).

    [IMPORTANT UPDATE]
    I just discovered one quirky little interval where GPS works, with everything else off.
    Start with cell radio on - GPS on, make sure it has a solid GPS fix
    as indicated by Go To app updating every second.
    Then turn on Aircraft Mode.
    Go To app indicates that it still has an active GPS fix, and will update position as
    you move in realtime.
    HOWEVER.. the moment the phone goes to sleep once, it's done. No more GPS.
    It will not reestablish when you wake it back up.

    So perhaps Palm can claim they have standalone GPS, for typically about 30 seconds.

    ian
    Last edited by Daemon; 08/20/2009 at 02:45 AM.
  15. #35  
    Typical modern GPS sensors support NMEA format messages, so that's what most GPS navigation or tracking programs use. However, the only WebOS GPS API I've seen is not NMEA. So it would seem that adapting existing software is at least a little bit of time and effort.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Romain Kang View Post
    Typical modern GPS sensors support NMEA format messages, so that's what most GPS navigation or tracking programs use. However, the only WebOS GPS API I've seen is not NMEA. So it would seem that adapting existing software is at least a little bit of time and effort.
    So that is already the sad answer my question would have been 'is it possible to attach a so called bluetooth gps mouse (standalone gps sensor) to the pre and get a fix in whichever pre software'. But if NMEA is not used, a third-party bt-gps-mouse is not the answer to the non-radio enabled gps question on the pre, cause they all use NMEA to communicate. This is kind of bad, cause i often use my gps-mouse with my non-gps SE-M600i via BT, which is great in the matter of having one device pointing to the air in your backpack an the phone in your pocket that could also be hidden from the satellites sometime.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    In short, Yes. The GPS is a nice addition but it's a secondary function.

    Any reasonably sane person will not depend on their phone for GPS in situations where is true GPS is a must. At least not right now.
    That is pretty bogus. Let's say you bought a car that had a turbo booster, dual exhaust, chrome wheels, and tinted windows. When you received the car all it had was tinted windows and the manufacturer is saying it has those other items. With your logic you would just accept it because all of those are secondary options to the primary function of the car? I doubt it.

    If it is supposed to have standalone gps and someone pays for it with the thought that it will have it, then it should have standalone gps regardless if it is only a secondary function to the phone. I rarely get out of cell coverage so it doesn't really affect me. However, I purchased a device and I want that device have everything it says it has.
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Why does everyone keep saying there is no pure non-nav GPS app?
    Install "Go To" from the Homebrew apps.

    Fire it up, give it one waypoint anywhere in the world and tell it
    to go there. Watch it update the lat/lon and horizontal accuracy
    once per second when it's got a decent GPS signal.
    If you see the accuracy anywhere over about 150 feet,
    it's using cellular triangulation rather than GPS.

    I often use Go To immediately after I enable GPS to know when I've got a GPS fix
    before I fire up Sprint Nav and start moving.

    ian
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Just ran a series of tests using ##GPS# and Go To
    Cell radio on - WiFi On - GPS enabled or
    Cell radio on - WiFi Off - GPS enabled
    ##GPS# gives accurate fix
    Go To updates continuously with high accuracy.

    Airplane mode - WiFi Off - GPS enabled
    ##GPS# returns last known cached position
    Go To never intializes

    Airplane mode - WiFi On - GPS enabled
    ##GPS# returns last known cached position
    Go To returns last known position and updates once a minute or so
    with exact same coordinates forever.

    Here's the other interesting thing about Airplane mode.
    If you go to Location Services and try to change the state of GPS
    either turning on, when it was off, or off when it was on, then exit
    Location Services and return, you'll see that GPS setting has reverted.
    In other words, you can't change it when Airplane mode is on. I suspect
    that's because it's really doing nothing at all. It just locks it down
    so it'll be whatever it was before when you turn off Airplane mode.

    I did verify though that it can get an accurate GPS fix
    with data off, and cell radio on, either on Sprint or Roam only.

    I've been in areas with no cell signal and could not get a GPS fix.

    The one test I'd like to try though is driving from an area
    with cell signal and active GPS fix, to an area with no cell signal.
    (basically perpendicular to any interstate highway for 10 miles or
    so out in the boonies will usually do).

    [IMPORTANT UPDATE]
    I just discovered one quirky little interval where GPS works, with everything else off.
    Start with cell radio on - GPS on, make sure it has a solid GPS fix
    as indicated by Go To app updating every second.
    Then turn on Aircraft Mode.
    Go To app indicates that it still has an active GPS fix, and will update position as
    you move in realtime.
    HOWEVER.. the moment the phone goes to sleep once, it's done. No more GPS.
    It will not reestablish when you wake it back up.

    So perhaps Palm can claim they have standalone GPS, for typically about 30 seconds.

    ian
    Excellent work Ian.

    Have you read the statement Palm finally came with about the Treo 800w GPS to try and cover their butts? It's exactly how your Palm Pre is working and excactly what I've suspected all along. Palm is trying to claim stand alone GPS, but it's not true stand alone GPS, because the GPS receive needs help getting started. Once it's started it can keep running on its own till stopped for some reason, but it can't start as a true stand alone GPS unit.

    I just hope maybe you folks can convince Palm to fix it, because I don't want device makers locking down the GPS. Maybe you'll do better than we former Treo 800w folks did, because we could not get Palm to change a thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    That is pretty bogus. Let's say you bought a car that had a turbo booster, dual exhaust, chrome wheels, and tinted windows. When you received the car all it had was tinted windows and the manufacturer is saying it has those other items. With your logic you would just accept it because all of those are secondary options to the primary function of the car? I doubt it.

    If it is supposed to have standalone gps and someone pays for it with the thought that it will have it, then it should have standalone gps regardless if it is only a secondary function to the phone. I rarely get out of cell coverage so it doesn't really affect me. However, I purchased a device and I want that device have everything it says it has.
    I consider all the features of my devices to be PRIMARY and I use my devices for them all. I would not get a convergence device if I still needed to have other devices to get the job done.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    I consider all the features of my devices to be PRIMARY and I use my devices for them all. I would not get a convergence device if I still needed to have other devices to get the job done.
    Ooohh . . . I thought of even a better example relating to cars that I had to share. You buy a car and you purchase the option for it to have heated seats. Well, when you get in the car and press the button for the heated seats to start working they do not produce any heat. After inquiring to the manufacturer they tell you for the seats to become hot they must have the sun shining on them. To me, that does not seem like a solution. For some, apparently it is. I guess my next step is to start a business that installs the buttons for heated seats.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    That is pretty bogus. Let's say you bought a car that had a turbo booster, dual exhaust, chrome wheels, and tinted windows. When you received the car all it had was tinted windows and the manufacturer is saying it has those other items. With your logic you would just accept it because all of those are secondary options to the primary function of the car? I doubt it.

    If it is supposed to have standalone gps and someone pays for it with the thought that it will have it, then it should have standalone gps regardless if it is only a secondary function to the phone. I rarely get out of cell coverage so it doesn't really affect me. However, I purchased a device and I want that device have everything it says it has.
    Palm never advertised standalone GPS or stated it in the manual. So most people would not even be aware of it. Your analogy is bogus because the Pre does have GPS. It's not like Palm said there was GPS and then left it out. And of course I would not accept any product that's missing features that were falsly advertised. But it wasn't in this case unless you consider that KB article as advertisement which I don't.

    Also, If I bought this phone because I thought it had standalone GPS, I'd be sure to test it out within the first 30 days.


    Regarding Standalone GPS:
    This thread is inconclusive imo, but if it is found to not have it or it's indeed crippled, then Palm should not mention it anywhere or enable it.
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
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