Kinoma - Charles

[jaihawk]

Since this was buried several pages down, I wanted to bring it to the front for you Charles. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma

It's not that, it's that Palm needs to create an SDK for native apps before Kinoma Play for webOS is even a possibility.

-- Charles Wiltgen

Charles,

Can you expand on that a bit? Are you saying that the SDK that was released is not robust enough for your programmers to create a version of Kinoma similar to what we experienced with our Treos?

The reason I ask is two-fold. With some detailed explanation, you can prevent hundreds of e-mails (perhaps some not so professional) from Pre users asking why Kinoma isn't working on anything for the Pre. Secondly, you could arm hundreds of users with information to apply pressure directly on Palm, perhaps speeding up the process or at least lighting a fire under Palm to help out developers such as yourself.

[darnell]

I think Charles offered a little more detail in another comment:

Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma

As it stands, we couldn't support webOS if we wanted because webOS only supports web apps/widgets right now (like the iPhone did before it had a proper SDK).

-- Charles Wiltgen

If any Pre owners want to send messages that are "not so professional", I'm sure they'll only be shooting themselves and you other Pre owners at the same time. That sort of stuff might only cause folks at Kinoma to not want to do anything with Pre.

But for now, it appears you need to focus on talking with Palm.

Also, if you could get Palm and Sprint to release some actual figures about the number of Pre sold, that may help your case if the numbers look good, once the needed SDK is available.

[mabmarc]

Kinoma has a request site setup where you can vote to get a feature. One of the options to vote for is:

"Kinoma Play for Palm webOS (Palm Pre)"
Kinoma, Palo Alto, CA

Here is the link, the option is about 3 down on the page. You might need a google ID / Gmail account to vote.

Google Moderator

[laingman]

Wasted my money. If the real developers are saying they cant develop for webos, all we are going to get is tons of little useless widgets. I want to stream any am/fm station as long as I know the stream url. If these guys can't do it then palm should do it. What a waste of a beautiful phone. I did not imagine I was getting a phone that could do less than the old one (treo/centro)

[mabmarc]

I think Charles comments were made before the developers kit was even close to being finished. Why do they have a survey on their site to create a Webos version of Kinoma if they can't do it?

[p1554nt]

i hate the music player that came w/the pre.
PTunes that came w/ the treo was a ton better.

[hparsons]

Originally Posted by darnell

I think Charles offered a little more detail in another comment:
...

The problem is that his information was incorrect. Palm has allowed "select" developers deeper access for quite some time. As to whether or not Kinoma tried and was rebuffed, or didn't bother to try, we don't know. No one has said yet - at least not on here.

[darnell]

Originally Posted by mabmarc

I think Charles comments were made before the developers kit was even close to being finished. Why do they have a survey on their site to create a Webos version of Kinoma if they can't do it?

He just made the latest comment which I quoted on 8/7/2009. Has something changed since then?

Perhaps the survey is to influence Palm to give Kinoma what they want?

Originally Posted by hparsons

The problem is that his information was incorrect. Palm has allowed "select" developers deeper access for quite some time. As to whether or not Kinoma tried and was rebuffed, or didn't bother to try, we don't know. No one has said yet - at least not on here.

When does Palm plan to open it up to the world? Your app catalog is going to be very limited till Palm opens it up without any red tape.

Wasn't the whole idea of using a Linux based OS, to use something that could be more open to developers?

[hparsons]

Originally Posted by darnell

...
When does Palm plan to open it up to the world? Your app catalog is going to be very limited till Palm opens it up without any red tape.

Wasn't the whole idea of using a Linux based OS, to use something that could be more open to developers?

I can't speak for Palm on when they're going to open it up, or what their ideas were, but here are my personal opinions.

I don't think they're going to broadly open up a device SDK until after the App Catalog goes out of beta. I'm suspect that will happen either shortly before, or shortly after (shortly as in < 1 week) the Pre is released in Canada.

I don't think the plan was to use Linux to encourge developers, I WebOS was what was part of that plan. And, we will see a large number of applications because of the ease of development in WebOS.

The Linux portion of it is really no easier to program in than any other OS. Each distro of Linux (including the Pre's) has their own kernel that is different from others. The Pre will likely attract some that want to do lower level programming than the WebOS SDK allows, but that's probably not going to happen enmasse until after the device becomes more popular.

And again, some companies have already been given deeper access to the device. Motion Apps (the company that wrote the PalmOS emulator - Classic) is an example. I don't know the process to be accepted, and I don't know if Knioma has asked.

[clipcarl]

Originally Posted by hparsons

The problem is that his information was incorrect. Palm has allowed "select" developers deeper access for quite some time. As to whether or not Kinoma tried and was rebuffed, or didn't bother to try, we don't know. No one has said yet - at least not on here.

Not true. I spoke to Palm about this at PreDevCamp and the only developer that had binary code running on the Pre was MotionApps for their Classic app. And even that was done as a complete hack (using a browser plugin) rather than as part of any usable API available to developers.

There is no "deeper access" being given to "select" developers (At least not currently). I'm not sure where you are getting your information.

[darnell]

Originally Posted by hparsons

I don't know the process to be accepted, and I don't know if Knioma has asked.

For what Kinoma offers, Palm should be giving it to Kinoma without any special requests. Palm has Kinoma Freeplay as the (bundled, built into their ROM) media player on the CDMA Treo Pro, so Palm already knows the app is good.

Palm should have been asking Kinoma, rather than the other way around.

Originally Posted by clipcarl

Not true. I spoke to Palm about this at PreDevCamp and the only developer that had binary code running on the Pre was MotionApps for their Classic app. And even that was done as a complete hack (using a browser plugin) rather than as part of any usable API available to developers.

There is no "deeper access" being given to "select" developers (At least not currently). I'm not sure where you are getting your information.

Seems way more likely that Palm is the one holding the door closed.

[Kasracer]

I'm working on several webOS applications so let me try to clear this up a little bit.

Palm has a prerelease area where about 100+ developers / companies were allowed to see the SDK ahead of time. These developers are also the only ones who can submit apps to the App Catalog until the Fall when it's finalized and opened up to everyone.

Very, very few folks were given "deeper" access (which only amounts to a plug-in to WebKit) and I believe, as mentioned before, that was only for the Classic application.

On the note left by Kinoma.... they are incorrect. I don't believe they have taken the time to review the SDK properly as it already includes every component needed by their application. The SDK includes components so you can play audio (Pandora was created using just the SDK) and do quite a bit of cool, UI effects.

While I believe Palm should (and will have to) give deeper OS access specifically for game developer; I don't believe there is anything in Kinoma's way of porting their application to webOS.

Palm is currently working very closely with certain developers so even if Kinoma found something in the API that is missing they could probably talk to Palm and get it worked into the next release(s).

[jhoff80]

Doesn't PrePod prove to everyone that in this case, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about?

The only thing that could possibly need deeper access is adding more codecs.

[BMIC50]

Not to interrupt your back-and-forth, but Kinoma doesnt need deeper access to webOS to do what they do. PrePod and Pandora BOTH stream music/content from outside sources. PrePod can even save files locally.

As much as I depended on Kinoma, I am thoroughly convinced that they do NOT need deeper access to accomplish what others have already done.

[BMIC50]

Originally Posted by jhoff80

Doesn't PrePod prove to everyone that in this case, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about?

The only thing that could possibly need deeper access is adding more codecs.

+1!!

I didnt refresh before I posted, thus I didnt see your comment.

[darnell]

Originally Posted by Kasracer

On the note left by Kinoma.... they are incorrect. I don't believe they have taken the time to review the SDK properly as it already includes every component needed by their application. The SDK includes components so you can play audio (Pandora was created using just the SDK) and do quite a bit of cool, UI effects.

While I believe Palm should (and will have to) give deeper OS access specifically for game developer; I don't believe there is anything in Kinoma's way of porting their application to webOS.

But you know Kinoma does way more than simply play audio? It's a:

• Video Player, that scans the entire device for compatible files and indexes them.
• Music Player, that scans the entire device for compatible files and indexes them.
• Web Media Player
• Program lanucher, that can literally be the "shell" for running any programs on a device.
• Picture viewer, that scans the entire device for device compatible files and indexes them.
• Full Audible audio book support for audio books online or on the device.
• Has the ability to have it's own new Kinoma specific applications downloaded and added to Kinoma. (Advanced Settings, Kinoma App Store, Google Reader, Twitter and more.)
• Full GUI customization within Kinoma stored to the device, so no web access is needed to see your customized Kinoma GUI.

Charles probably could list more than that, but does what Palm has provided really provide a means for Kinoma to do all of that? Because the more recent releases of Kinoma Play do way more than Kinoma Play could do just a few months ago.

[darnell]

Originally Posted by jhoff80

The only thing that could possibly need deeper access is adding more codecs.

And Kionma would need the ability to do that. Because Kinoma supports more audio and video formats.

[darnell]

Some of you folks talking about what Kinoma needs and what Kinoma does seem to be speaking from knowledge of the Palm OS version.

If you have not used the latest version of Kinoma Play on WM, you have no idea all that Kinoma can do. And I'm sure Kinoma does not want to make a version of their production on a NEW OS that is limited. It should be able to do all they have done on WM or more.

[BMIC50]

Originally Posted by darnell

And Kionma would need the ability to do that. Because Kinoma supports more audio and video formats.

PrePod expanded its ability to play different formats. I think it included video not to long ago. And it plays its content (besides video) in its own app.

MyNotifications and Switcharoo both pull up local files and utilizes them for their applications.

There is a functional, albeit limited, RSS reader already in the works.

FileCoaster can install an updated version within itself.

I am not seeing what more Kinoma needs, considering that other developers have accomplished the same tasks with the same SDK.

[Kasracer]

I am well aware of the capabilities of Kinoma as I used it constantly on my Windows Mobile device.

Please keep in mind that the SDK just came out of Alpha a month ago and Palm is actively listening to the developers and working on API additions. Anything missing I'm sure Kinoma could request it.

Originally Posted by darnell

• Video Player, that scans the entire device for compatible files and indexes them.
• Music Player, that scans the entire device for compatible files and indexes them.

Hmm... well, as it is now, the Pre already indexes these and you can use a Picker to find a file. But you're right, it doesn't support it to the extent that Kinoma wants.

I've seen quite a few requests for additional file IO API and Palm has said that they are listening and even commented on the postings so I would bet that it's coming. Regardless, as I said earlier, Kinoma could probably request anything that isn't there and I bet Palm would be on top of it.

Originally Posted by darnell

• Web Media Player

Not entirely sure what you mean by "Web Media Player". Are you talking about playing Flash files? If you just mean streaming from the web then look no further than Audio player otherwise I don't believe it's possible.

Originally Posted by darnell

• Program lanucher, that can literally be the "shell" for running any programs on a device.

Application Manager. Though, um, that sounds like a rather useless feature... just use the Launcher...

Originally Posted by darnell

• Picture viewer, that scans the entire device for device compatible files and indexes them.

Why duplicate functionality? Regardless, this could be done by using the built in indexing via the Application Manager.

Again, as I said before, Kinoma should be able to request for any additional APIs.

Originally Posted by darnell

• Full Audible audio book support for audio books online or on the device.

No support at this time, however; I know it's been highly requested in the development forums so this may change in the future.

Originally Posted by darnell

• Has the ability to have it's own new Kinoma specific applications downloaded and added to Kinoma. (Advanced Settings, Kinoma App Store, Google Reader, Twitter and more.)

Easily doable. I actually have no idea why you would even mention this; this can even be on via web applications and all depends on your implementation.

Naturally they would not appear in the Launcher.

Originally Posted by darnell

• Full GUI customization within Kinoma stored to the device, so no web access is needed to see your customized Kinoma GUI.

webOS uses CSS so it's probably much easier to customize than any other version of Kinoma .