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  1. #61  
    This thread might be the most pertinent one I've read in a long time. I've only had my Pre for a week now and I can see the glaring faults of it already. The OS is the groundwork of any successful device, and honestly, it's lacking. For custom junkies like me and probably a lot of others on this forum, the lack of customization in the stock OS is troubling. I don't want to hear "it's coming, just wait", I think I speak for everyone when I say, "I don't want to wait anymore". Palm's lack of response in reference to when a full-blown SDK will be released is cause for concern as well.

    Perhaps this is attributed to a lack of graphics acceleration, but the Pre is often sluggish and that half-second lag between inputs is maddening. Clean it up, smooth it out, and get some apps that make people go "OMG". Word of mouth travels fast. Right now, word of mouth is preventing Pre sales from being where they should be.
  2. #62  
    This is a strange thread as it's hard to understand what's missing from the SDK for Kinoma, and conversely the value Kinoma would bring to the Pre.

    Kinoma stood out on Palm OS and was essential. But on the Pre it's not as clear. And the player, while good, had its issues just like the Pre Music app.
  3. diomark's Avatar
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    #63  
    Personally I just want to see the features from Kinoma Play on wm6 brought to the pre - specifically, the kinoma guide and orb support..
    -mark
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by laingman View Post
    I did not imagine I was getting a phone that could do less than the old one (treo/centro)
    I figured that out within a few days of the Pre's release. Maybe eventually the Pre will catch up, but today my P-OS Treo does more things, and does most of them better, than the Pre. Maybe someday the Pre will catch up, but at this point the Phone, the OS and the app catalog should all be classed as beta.

    I keep reading here, hoping for a breakthrough update from Palm, or the appearance of business class apps, but so far nothing about the Pre has me even tempted to replace my 755p. I sure wish that wasn't true, because the concept of the Pre is brilliant.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    Yes and no. The current SDK is for applications that are, technically native to webOS. The thing is, they're not compilable applications (what is usually associated with the word native).
    ...
    Isn't it funny how things evolve? I got into computer (as a user, not as a programmer, then or now...) when real programmers developed their apps in assembly. Even a couple of years when compilable (including C) systems came out, they were identified as comiled programs...
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    While I understand not wanting to develop for webOS, especially since you can't use any of your portable, compilable code, I still felt that you prematurely discounted the webOS SDK and I truly believe you can recreate everything that Kinoma on WM can do, minus additional codecs of course, with the current SDK though it would require using certain, available, services that currently are undocumented.
    I think the bolded is one of the bigger selling points of Kinoma. The only reason I purchased Kinoma on my 755p was to play codecs that the 755p didn't support. That is the only reason I purchased Coreplayer for my 800w. Granted my personal experience is a very limited survey but I feel codec functionality plays a big part into their marketing. I cannot tell you how many times coworkers of mine are frustrated that they cannot listen to their voicemails that are forwarded to their email because their phone does not support that codec. That is when I direct them to a program like Kinoma that they can purchase and get that functionality and more.

    Sure, for experienced users there are ways to modify certain operating systems on your phone to get the abilities you desire. For 99% of the people I know that I have mentioned things about registry, rooting, or flashing to they have no idea what I am talking about and look at me with a blank stare. They almost would pay $10-$30 just to not have to listen to me talk about those things. That is why the apps like Kinoma, Coreplayer, etc are good for the average user to purchase and not have to worry about modifying anything on their own.

    Until additional codec support is available it would almost be like they would be wasting their time in developing something that cannot function exactly like they would like it to. I don't think it would be a wise business decision on their part to develop something until Palm makes everything they desire available to them. Until this happens, I can see why there is no app available.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    Folks,

    Let's all take a deep breath. This isn't life or death, it's just software -- okay, pretty amazing software -- and phones.

    Kinoma Play is a native app. Palm doesn't yet have an SDK that supports native apps. (It's not like we haven't asked them.)

    -- Charles Wiltgen

    I think the unspoken question that seems to be at the focus of much of the discussion is "What is Kinoma?"

    Is Kinoma a certain set of functions and capabilities? Or is Kinoma a set of application code, written in a particular language?

    If the answer to the first question is "Yes" then an application called Kinoma, with the capabilities that we associate with Kinoma, can be writen for multiple platforms, in multiple languages, possibly (likely) including WebOS.

    But if the answer to the second is true, and the vendor sees Kinoma as the source code that already exists, then there can be no Kinoma for WebOS until access to the underlying OS is provided. There can be other programs that provide similar functionality, but they won't be the same application named "Kinoma".

    To the user, this may seem a silly distinction. "Of course Kinoma is the interface, the look and feel, the functionality. What do I care what language it's written in?"

    But to a software developer (which I used to be), it's not silly at all. Kinoma, the code, represents a major investment. The vendor has spent significant amounts of money developing, testing, updating and improving the product. To rewrite Kinoma from the ground up, in another language, requires another investment. And then it requires double the investment going forward, as every new feature and capability needs to be coded twice, tested twice, and documented twice.

    I would bet that all existing versions of Kinoma share the same basic code base, with relatively minor differences to adapt to each specific platform. That wouldn't be the case for a WebOS version. And I can understand why Kinoma doesn't want to support two totally independent versions of their app.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I think the unspoken question that seems to be at the focus of much of the discussion is "What is Kinoma?"

    Is Kinoma a certain set of functions and capabilities? Or is Kinoma a set of application code, written in a particular language?

    If the answer to the first question is "Yes" then an application called Kinoma, with the capabilities that we associate with Kinoma, can be writen for multiple platforms, in multiple languages, possibly (likely) including WebOS.

    But if the answer to the second is true, and the vendor sees Kinoma as the source code that already exists, then there can be no Kinoma for WebOS until access to the underlying OS is provided. There can be other programs that provide similar functionality, but they won't be the same application named "Kinoma".

    To the user, this may seem a silly distinction. "Of course Kinoma is the interface, the look and feel, the functionality. What do I care what language it's written in?"

    But to a software developer (which I used to be), it's not silly at all. Kinoma, the code, represents a major investment. The vendor has spent significant amounts of money developing, testing, updating and improving the product. To rewrite Kinoma from the ground up, in another language, requires another investment. And then it requires double the investment going forward, as every new feature and capability needs to be coded twice, tested twice, and documented twice.

    I would bet that all existing versions of Kinoma share the same basic code base, with relatively minor differences to adapt to each specific platform. That wouldn't be the case for a WebOS version. And I can understand why Kinoma doesn't want to support two totally independent versions of their app.
    Man. Better point than mine. Good thoughts though. I wonder which is true but I suspect your suspicions are correct.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by mulcher View Post
    I'm a newb, but wasn't the native SDK what Palm release about 2 weeks ago?
    The WebOS SDK provides no capability to write in low level languages, like C++, or to directly access the hardware. And that's what people mean when they're referring to a "native" SDK. Both of which, I suspect, the existing Kinoma code base requires.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    I think the bolded is one of the bigger selling points of Kinoma. The only reason I purchased Kinoma on my 755p was to play codecs that the 755p didn't support. That is the only reason I purchased Coreplayer for my 800w. Granted my personal experience is a very limited survey but I feel codec functionality plays a big part into their marketing.
    Support of additional codecs plays a huge role for Kinoma and I doubt anybody would buy Coreplayer if not for its additional codec support. I mean apart from additional codecs, Kinoma would have some customers, but Coreplayer would likely have very near zero. Because nobody is buying Coreplayer for its looks .

    There's no shortage of comments by Charles in the Treo 800w and Treo Pro forum, where he mentions how Kinoma supports many various formats. And the only reason anyone buys Coreplayer is to support some additional codecs.

    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    The WebOS SDK provides no capability to write in low level languages, like C++, or to directly access the hardware. And that's what people mean when they're referring to a "native" SDK. Both of which, I suspect, the existing Kinoma code base requires.
    And part of that likely involves support of additional codecs. So even if we look at Kinoma as a set of functions, the support of additional codecs cannot yet be duplicated in webOS.

    I can say I also do app development, among other things. And I think the webOS app catalog will see substantial growth, once webOS can support development in languages such as C++ and others. I mean come on, you who work on dev teams know, that if a platform supports what your team is good with you're going to build for that platform. A newbie like webOS is not going to get much attention until developers can more easily port their existing code to work on it.

    And it's not like Pre are selling at any notable rate. Because Palm and Sprint have not released any solid figures. We who want to be honest about it know that means they really are not selling very big. Someone had to make up a one million sold thread, because we know it has not happened yet. And Pre certainly is not selling like some of its competitors. So webOS does not have a large base of users, to convince many dev teams that there would be a good return on investment in learning to use webOS as it is (plus mounting up a brand new development effort for one new mobile OS, after you know how to code for it) and webOS does not yet support what many dev teams already use.
  11. #71  
    I loved Kinoma on my Treo and I wish they would port it to Pre but I do not believe the problem is lack of access to deeper levels of the OS. If that were true there would not be so many apps already available that stream *all the same audio* you got from Kinoma and more.

    Don't wait for Kinoma. You can stream podcasts using PrePod (which also allows you to search for podcasts) or sync them from Itunes (couldnt do that on my Treo). You can stream endless radio - music, news, sports, talk etc - using both Net2Streams and Shoutcast apps. You can watch video with Youtube and TV and music with Sprint TV, you can stream any audio from any website and any video (except flash - coming soon) from any web site....

    All of which raises two questions:

    1) Whats the real reason Kinoma isn't developing a Pre app? (Likely because they are waiting to see a larger user base)

    and

    2) Why are you waiting for Kinoma when you have so many ways to stream??????

    By waiting Kinoma is just losing out. Others are filling the need and if Kinoma doesnt jump in we will all still be streaming but no one will remember them.
  12. jaihawk's Avatar
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       #72  
    Okay, color me confused here but you say you can stream audio from any website. I admit I've been gone a few days, but is this true? It wasn't before I left. The stream had to be of the mp3 variety. If so, what are you using to stream? I used Kinoma solely for streaming BBC Radio One or Capital 95.8.
  13. diomark's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by jaihawk View Post
    Okay, color me confused here but you say you can stream audio from any website. I admit I've been gone a few days, but is this true? It wasn't before I left. The stream had to be of the mp3 variety. If so, what are you using to stream? I used Kinoma solely for streaming BBC Radio One or Capital 95.8.
    Not sure about their live stream, but bbc1's podcasts should play fine in prepod.

    BBC - Podcasts - Directory

    -mark
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    ...
    And it's not like Pre are selling at any notable rate. Because Palm and Sprint have not released any solid figures. We who want to be honest about it know that means they really are not selling very big.
    Oh, so you're making a negative guess, and that make you honest, and everyone else dishonest.

    What a joke.

    You come on to a forum for a device you don't own, spewing nonsense and presenting it as truth, then have the unmitigated gall to impune the honesty of those that happen to differ from you.

    You really should go to a forum for your device.... Oh wait, I forgot - abandoned device, with dwindling sales numbers. No wonder you prowl the other sites...


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So webOS does not have a large base of users, to convince many dev teams that there would be a good return on investment in learning to use webOS as it is (plus mounting up a brand new development effort for one new mobile OS, after you know how to code for it) and webOS does not yet support what many dev teams already use.
    Well, except for the developers that are good enough to apply their current knowledge of HTML, CSS, and Javascript to write apps.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by ravsteve View Post
    you can stream any audio from any website and any video (except flash - coming soon) from any web site....

    I love the new shoutcast and netstream apps but you STILL can't stream WMV or ASX streams... Core player usually has these codecs and since the SDK does not have the ability to add them, that's the heart of this thread...
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You really should go to a forum for your device.... Oh wait, I forgot - abandoned device, with dwindling sales numbers. No wonder you prowl the other sites...
    It appears I got an account here before you and I'll be around so long as I please.

    If you knew the devices I own, you'd know why I laugh at your talk about sales of my devices .

    Just because I speak positively about the Treo Pro, does not mean I own one . Device ownership is not a requirement to speak here. But when they add it to the forum rules I'll consider going elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmyq9c View Post
    I love the new shoutcast and netstream apps but you STILL can't stream WMV or ASX streams... Core player usually has these codecs and since the SDK does not have the ability to add them, that's the heart of this thread...
    BINGO!!!
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by luvmyq9c View Post
    I love the new shoutcast and netstream apps but you STILL can't stream WMV or ASX streams... Core player usually has these codecs and since the SDK does not have the ability to add them, that's the heart of this thread...
    I did notice that you mentioned CorePlayer. It looks like CorePlayer might be coming to the Pre and WebOS.

    Here is the link:

    Will CorePlayer support the Palm Pre OS?

    Will CorePlayer support the Palm Pre OS?

    Solution
    Yes, we are looking into supporting the Palm Pre operating system.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by dfine1966 View Post
    I did notice that you mentioned CorePlayer. It looks like CorePlayer might be coming to the Pre and WebOS.

    Here is the link:

    Will CorePlayer support the Palm Pre OS?

    Will CorePlayer support the Palm Pre OS?

    Solution
    Yes, we are looking into supporting the Palm Pre operating system.
    Good they are looking into it. That may keep Kinoma interested.

    Once they can support adding codecs, we'll probably see something from them.

    It's good Charles comes around to speak about things. I've never seen anyone from CorePlayer come around to explain anything. It's one thing to say something is being looked into, but Kinoma gets into the details a little bit. CorePlayer will just sit back and once the codec support is available then make the app. Because CorePlayer is nothing without codecs, nothing.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Support of additional codecs plays a huge role for Kinoma and I doubt anybody would buy Coreplayer if not for its additional codec support. I mean apart from additional codecs, Kinoma would have some customers, but Coreplayer would likely have very near zero. Because nobody is buying Coreplayer for its looks .

    There's no shortage of comments by Charles in the Treo 800w and Treo Pro forum, where he mentions how Kinoma supports many various formats. And the only reason anyone buys Coreplayer is to support some additional codecs.
    Completely agree. That is the only reason I bought it or told anyone to buy it.
  20. #80  
    Here's more scoop direct from the CorePlayer forum, which is about the only place they ever speak much about anything.

    (From comment #2, said by BetaBoy)
    Palm Pre is on our radar and we have been mucking around in teh SDK... good thing is Linux based as we already run on it ;-).... but no time frame for a release.
    Well Charles, I guess it might be more politically correct, to say Kinoma is looking into it, but has no time frame for release . I mean Kinoma has looked into it some. I think you should make that your line and stick to it. Seems to go over better.
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