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  1. 1PTUser's Avatar
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    #41  
    Kasracer, October may seem a long way out for some. But I think many would support your efforts. Go for it.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    ...
    (If you want to take a friendly wager then when I have more free time in October I'll bet you I can write a Kinoma clone entirely in webOS. (minus any alternative codec support; that obviously won't be possible ))
    You looking for backers on the bet? I'm not even a gambler, and I'd bank you (to my meager abilities) on that one.

    I love it when someone in a debate finally says "Put your money where your mouth is"...
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post

    I love it when someone in a debate finally says "Put your money where your mouth is"...
    For Kinoma, it's all about the money. They don't make their app for "thanks". Kinoma has already said they find the best option for their wallet is to wait till Palm gives an SDK with everything they want, including being able to add new codecs.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1PTUser View Post
    Kasracer, October may seem a long way out for some. But I think many would support your efforts. Go for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You looking for backers on the bet? I'm not even a gambler, and I'd bank you (to my meager abilities) on that one.

    I love it when someone in a debate finally says "Put your money where your mouth is"...
    Erm, keep in mind if I actually did this it would be with Kinoma's permission and I wouldn't distribute it in anyway, shape or form unless they wanted me to. I don't want to step on anyone's toes and I certainly wouldn't want to make a clone without their permission.
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    For Kinoma, it's all about the money. They don't make their app for "thanks". Kinoma has already said they find the best option for their wallet is to wait till Palm gives an SDK with everything they want, including being able to add new codecs.
    They're a company so it should be about the money (to a degree, naturally) but they never said that was the best option for their wallet; they just immediately dismissed it saying it's a web app / widget SDK which isn't true.

    I'm all for making money but I hate spreading disinformation and that was my only reason for my responses. I don't see anything wrong with a company who doesn't want to develop for webOS especially if they already have portable libraries in other languages that they couldn't use here.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    ...but I hate spreading disinformation and that was my only reason for my responses. I don't see anything wrong with a company who doesn't want to develop for webOS especially if they already have portable libraries in other languages that they couldn't use here.
    But Kinoma is not spreading disinformation. They can't make a version of their app that comes up to par with what they've got on WM, until Palm provides the SDK. We all agree they can't load codecs on Pre. So anything Kinoma (or you) tried to make at this point would be limited. Kinoma said they won't do it till they can do it how they wish. That's not disinformation. It's a fact Palm has not yet released the information Kinoma needs to do things the way they want to.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    But Kinoma is not spreading disinformation. They can't make a version of their app that comes up to par with what they've got on WM, until Palm provides the SDK[...]That's not disinformation.
    No, you're not reading what was said. Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma
    Palm is following Apple's (completely reasonable) iPhone strategy of exposing widget/web app functionality first, and at some point they'll figure out how to support native apps.
    webOS development isn't "widget" or "web app" functionality. It's far from the truth therefore it's disinformation. webOS applications are native applications to webOS and you can still have web applications.

    The only link webOS and web applications have is the fact that the same languages are used. That's it. webOS apps have services and APIs that link into the hardware and other components. You can't do this with web apps. The application lifecycle is vastly different as well.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    No, you're not reading what was said. Try again.
    webOS development isn't "widget" or "web app" functionality. It's far from the truth therefore it's disinformation. webOS applications are native applications to webOS and you can still have web applications.

    The only link webOS and web applications have is the fact that the same languages are used. That's it. webOS apps have services and APIs that link into the hardware and other components. You can't do this with web apps. The application lifecycle is vastly different as well.
    That was a later exchange and you know it.

    But it all started when you accused Kinoma of not doing their homework.

    While even if you made a Kinoma clone you would not be able to have it do everything Kinoma has done on WM. So you never proved disinformation on Kinoma's part. Kinoma's position is that the current SDK does not provide them all that they need, to do what they desire to do.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    For Kinoma, it's all about the money. They don't make their app for "thanks". Kinoma has already said they find the best option for their wallet is to wait till Palm gives an SDK with everything they want, including being able to add new codecs.
    Did you read what he wrote? I think not. No one is offer Knoma money, or asking them to do anything.

    The offer was for a bet that Kasracer can do in October what Kinoma (or their rep) is claiming cannot be done.

    Pay attention man!!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    ...
    While even if you made a Kinoma clone you would not be able to have it do everything Kinoma has done on WM.
    ...
    Unless, of course, the clone did everything that's done on WM.

    I have to wonder, why are you continually arguing so vociferiously about what can and can't be done on a device you don't own. This guy says he can do it. I'd like to see it.

    Here's a thought ... you might not know as much about the Pre (that you don't own) as the programmer that does own it.

    Just a thought...
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Pay attention man!!
    Cool yourself.

    I think you're the one who is confused.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    Erm, keep in mind if I actually did this it would be with Kinoma's permission and I wouldn't distribute it in anyway, shape or form unless they wanted me to. I don't want to step on anyone's toes and I certainly wouldn't want to make a clone without their permission.
    ...
    I don't have a problem with that. I'd still put up a share of a friendly wager.
    1. I don't feel I'd loose
    2. It would be interesting to see it done
    Personally, I think it's a moot point. I believe that Kinoma has made a decision not to pursue the Pre, and are looking for justification for that. Whether it's valid justification or not, I also believe that somone is going to come up with a competing product while they wait around insisting that things be done "their way".
    I'm suspecting we're going to a Flash add one with expanded capabilites, but that's just a guess. The device is so new, and possibilites so wide open, that there's no telling what we'll se in the way of innovation.

    So much of this "No, it's a new device, and we want to continue to do things the way we want", not only from this publisher, but others, remindes me of when Windows was first becoming popular, and there were a host of database companies that wanted create look-and-feel DB programs that still used the old file formats. Ashton-Tate not only refused to rewrite their stuff, they sued over using the file formats. The company they sued was ProFox.

    Heard of Ashton-Tate lately? How about ProFox?

    My point is, I think those that insist on doing things "their way" are probably going to loose out in the long run.
    Last edited by hparsons; 08/14/2009 at 04:20 PM.
  12. #52  
    Folks,

    Let's all take a deep breath. This isn't life or death, it's just software -- okay, pretty amazing software -- and phones.

    Kinoma Play is a native app. Palm doesn't yet have an SDK that supports native apps. (It's not like we haven't asked them.)

    I can't think of a way to say it more clearly. Being accused of disingenuousness is kind of a bummer, so if that keeps up I'll probably stop sharing.

    Have a great weekend!

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    I can't think of a way to say it more clearly. Being accused of disingenuousness is kind of a bummer, so if that keeps up I'll probably stop sharing.
    Thanks for taking the high road Charles. I remain amazed at all the "experts" here that know so much more about what constitutes a successful software business venture than someone who's already created one. It's a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
  14. diomark's Avatar
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    Folks,

    Let's all take a deep breath. This isn't life or death, it's just software -- okay, pretty amazing software -- and phones.

    Kinoma Play is a native app. Palm doesn't yet have an SDK that supports native apps. (It's not like we haven't asked them.)

    I can't think of a way to say it more clearly. Being accused of disingenuousness is kind of a bummer, so if that keeps up I'll probably stop sharing.

    Have a great weekend!

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Charles,

    *loved loved loved* kinoma play on wm6, and sorry the board is being so defensive of the palm pre.. it does require developing in a different manner then what most developers are used to.. but then again you don't have to worry about alot of the BS that you have to w/ wm6 (like.. smooth scrolling/rotation/etc)

    Have you considered just making a kinoma guide app for the pre? Take a look at prepod - the only thing it's really missing is a guide...

    Can't wait to see what you guys do eventually come out with.
    -mark
  15. mulcher's Avatar
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    #55  
    I'm a newb, but wasn't the native SDK what Palm release about 2 weeks ago?
    Mark F Chinsky
  16. diomark's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by mulcher View Post
    I'm a newb, but wasn't the native SDK what Palm release about 2 weeks ago?
    The SDK is pretty high level.. doesn't really allow direct hardware access (i.e. no compiled code)

    What we have now are basically web-apps that are able to run on the phone.. but there's still a ton you can do with that functionality.
    -mark
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by diomark View Post
    Charles,

    *loved loved loved* kinoma play on wm6, and sorry the board is being so defensive of the palm pre.. it does require developing in a different manner then what most developers are used to.. but then again you don't have to worry about alot of the BS that you have to w/ wm6 (like.. smooth scrolling/rotation/etc)
    ...
    Except Kasracer insists it doesn't, and he appears to be a programmer. I think that's where the disconnect is. I'm not saying it can (or can't), because I don't know. As a matter of fact, earlier I said that the current offering (Pandora) was only streaming audio, not video, until it was pointed out to me that other Homebrew apps stream video.

    So far, Kasracer is the only one that's offered anything beyond "talk". He offered to prove that he can use WebOS to write a Kinoma Player clone (well, OK, I did offer to back him with some bucks).

    In spite of Kupe's assertions about offering opinions about a "successful software business venture" (I don't think that's what we're talking about, I know it's not what I'm talking about), and talk about waiting for a native SDK, and who's a pro, and who's not, Kasracer offered to do it.

    I've not seen anyone take him up on the bet. I suspect "talking" is a lot safer than risking money...
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    I can't think of a way to say it more clearly. Being accused of disingenuousness is kind of a bummer, so if that keeps up I'll probably stop sharing.
    I don't think I went about my argument in the right way so I want to apologize to you and everyone else involved.

    From your responses it sounded as if you completely wrote off the webOS SDK saying it was only for making widgets and web applications.

    While I understand not wanting to develop for webOS, especially since you can't use any of your portable, compilable code, I still felt that you prematurely discounted the webOS SDK and I truly believe you can recreate everything that Kinoma on WM can do, minus additional codecs of course, with the current SDK though it would require using certain, available, services that currently are undocumented.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    [...]he appears to be a programmer.
    Yes, I am a developer but please don't think I'm immediately an expert. I have been developing apps with the webOS SDK for the past couple of months but that doesn't mean I know everything.

    I'd like to think I'm giving a solid opinion others can trust.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by mulcher View Post
    I'm a newb, but wasn't the native SDK what Palm release about 2 weeks ago?
    Yes and no. The current SDK is for applications that are, technically native to webOS. The thing is, they're not compilable applications (what is usually associated with the word native).

    There are quite a few services and APIs that give you access to the hardware and other components. Not as low level that many of us would have preferred but it can make most applications happen.

    The biggest issue is if you want to use 3D / 2D acceleration and particle effects in games. JavaScript just doesn't provide enough horse power to make really amazing things. Hopefully this will change in the near future.
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