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  1. #21  
    Also, keep in mind that my responses are based on the current, documented SDK. There are undocumented APIs that homebrew apps are using to get file access that I'm sure Kinoma could use .
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    I'm working on several webOS applications so let me try to clear this up a little bit.

    Palm has a prerelease area where about 100+ developers / companies were allowed to see the SDK ahead of time. These developers are also the only ones who can submit apps to the App Catalog until the Fall when it's finalized and opened up to everyone.

    Very, very few folks were given "deeper" access (which only amounts to a plug-in to WebKit) and I believe, as mentioned before, that was only for the Classic application.

    On the note left by Kinoma.... they are incorrect. I don't believe they have taken the time to review the SDK properly as it already includes every component needed by their application. The SDK includes components so you can play audio (Pandora was created using just the SDK) and do quite a bit of cool, UI effects.

    While I believe Palm should (and will have to) give deeper OS access specifically for game developer; I don't believe there is anything in Kinoma's way of porting their application to webOS.

    Palm is currently working very closely with certain developers so even if Kinoma found something in the API that is missing they could probably talk to Palm and get it worked into the next release(s).
    r u kasracer from [M]? Tis logie/ilmickeyli
  3. #23  
    Oh jesus...

    runs
  4. #24  
    Your secret is safe with me! Glad to have another [M]/Pre guy here

  5. #25  
    So Kinoma could go through a process of back and forth with Palm or just wait till Palm provides a more robust SDK. Kinoma has already given their take. I doubt this therad will change much of anything.

    Regarding certain features already in the Pre, that's not the point. Any mobile OS with a strong developer backing has many versions of apps that often do the same thing or similar things plus more than another. And when you have that large suit of apps to choose from, you have more freedom to pick and choose and often find features you prefer in one over another and it gives the others reason to improve on theirs.

    If you folks don't tell Palm to provide an SDK to do all that can be done on WM (and more), oh well... I won't complain, they'll just keep on making their apps for me on WM and focusing their energy on things other than webOS. That's fine with me, I don't have a Pre, but you folks will just have less apps to choose from. And obviously, companies like Kinoma can afford to wait.
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by laingman View Post
    Wasted my money. If the real developers are saying they cant develop for webos, all we are going to get is tons of little useless widgets. I want to stream any am/fm station as long as I know the stream url. If these guys can't do it then palm should do it. What a waste of a beautiful phone. I did not imagine I was getting a phone that could do less than the old one (treo/centro)

    Not being able to stream am/fm station from Clear Channel which alot are wma streams is a major let down for me too, even my Treo 700p can do it.
    If Kinoma doesnt come out with an app soon, Palm should include the wma codec in an update.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So Kinoma could go through a process of back and forth with Palm or just wait till Palm provides a more robust SDK. Kinoma has already given their take. I doubt this therad will change much of anything.
    Back and forth? What about "we need this, this and this"? They can't send more than 1 thing?

    There is more than enough to get a good part of Kinoma functional. Besides, most of what we discussed was already requested and sent off to Palm.
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Regarding certain features already in the Pre, that's not the point. Any mobile OS with a strong developer backing has many versions of apps that often do the same thing or similar things plus more than another. And when you have that large suit of apps to choose from, you have more freedom to pick and choose and often find features you prefer in one over another and it gives the others reason to improve on theirs.
    I agree... to a degree. A file picker or an image picker? No point in reproducing that functionality as it should, ideally, be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    If you folks don't tell Palm to provide an SDK to do all that can be done on WM (and more), oh well...
    Trust me, many vocal folks are talking with them. They're saying they are listening and working on many things that we've requested but we just don't know.

    The webOS SDK, to a degree, should be able to provide most functionality. We're hoping this rumored "gaming framework" opens the door to more, lower level functionality.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Doesn't PrePod prove to everyone that in this case, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about?

    The only thing that could possibly need deeper access is adding more codecs.
    Love Kinoma, bit this is so true. PrePod is doing almost everything I needed Kinoma for.
    Commodore Pet, Commodore 64&128, Amiga 4000, PC-7, Ubuntu, Treo 650. Treo 755p,Sprint Palm Pre Plus 2.2.4,2 Sprint Pre2 2.2.4, TouchPad 32gig.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by craftsman View Post
    Love Kinoma, bit this is so true. PrePod is doing almost everything I needed Kinoma for.
    Yeah, I was just going to say the same thing. Its kinda too late IMO for Kinoma to come in and steal any thunder. PrePod has proven sufficient to me, and will probably add more codecs and features.

    They would have to wait for deeper access/better SDK if they are going to make anything worth noticing at this point.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl View Post
    Not true. I spoke to Palm about this at PreDevCamp and the only developer that had binary code running on the Pre was MotionApps for their Classic app. And even that was done as a complete hack (using a browser plugin) rather than as part of any usable API available to developers.

    There is no "deeper access" being given to "select" developers (At least not currently). I'm not sure where you are getting your information.
    You spoke to "Palm"?? The whole company? Wow, I am impressed.

    Unfortunately, I've had to depend on third party reports. There were several back in February, and I didn't really note them at the time, but here's a link I found quickly.

    Normally, I wouldn't cite a forum, but the poster did give names. Here's the pertinent pieces:

    Palm CTO Mitch Allen led the conference call, which focused on the technical details of how to create applications for the Pre. During the call, Allen tried to drive home the point about how easy development would be. Allen demonstrated a quick way to build an application even as developers who had logged on wondered if it would be really as easy as shown.
    ...
    handle games. Games are one of the most popular categories of apps on the iPhone. They are also one of the few categories where paid apps still find takers. Addressing that issue, the Pre will give game developers plenty of room to unleash their creativity, Allen told developers Wednesday. "There are great web based games that will work well in this (Pre's) environment," he says. "Other category of games require deeper access to the OS and that is something we intend to improve as time goes on."
    This addresses the future avaialability issue. If you remain unconvinced, I'll dig further.

    The point is that the device is still new, and deeper access will be given. I'd still like to hear something from Kinoma that says "Yes, we asked, they denied". I haven't seen that yet.

    I really suspect they're just waiting to see how popular the device is.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    ...
    Seems way more likely that Palm is the one holding the door closed.
    Based on what?? As you stated, Palm has done this once (of course, it was for an established device that was almost a decade old at the time). Why would they withold access to a proven developer?

    It's all speculation, but I suspect the proven developer is really waiting to see how popular the device is.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Not to interrupt your back-and-forth, but Kinoma doesnt need deeper access to webOS to do what they do. PrePod and Pandora BOTH stream music/content from outside sources. PrePod can even save files locally.

    As much as I depended on Kinoma, I am thoroughly convinced that they do NOT need deeper access to accomplish what others have already done.
    To be fair, streaming video is likely to be more device intensive than streaming audio.

    Interesting that you mentioned Pandora though. Here's a brief bit of info from Tom Conrad from Pandora:
    I can't talk about the participants at that event, although I know it's public knowledge that Facebook got up on stage at their launch event to talk a little bit about working with Palm to integrate Facebook into the OS itself, so that when you are browsing your address book your Facebook friends show up there, their photos...
    ...
    So, I think it's fair to say that the information I'd heard prior to launch is likely true, some developers have been given deeper access to the devices OS.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Some of you folks talking about what Kinoma needs and what Kinoma does seem to be speaking from knowledge of the Palm OS version.

    If you have not used the latest version of Kinoma Play on WM, you have no idea all that Kinoma can do. And I'm sure Kinoma does not want to make a version of their production on a NEW OS that is limited. It should be able to do all they have done on WM or more.
    Actually, most of us have been asking for Kinoma (or their rep) to speak. We're all just sort of rambling and speculating in the silence from them that has ensued...
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    To be fair, streaming video is likely to be more device intensive than streaming audio.
    For the record, PrePod streams audio OR video and can save either as well.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    So Kinoma could go through a process of back and forth with Palm or just wait till Palm provides a more robust SDK. Kinoma has already given their take. I doubt this therad will change much of anything.
    ...
    They have??? Where? I must have mised that.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by craftsman View Post
    Love Kinoma, bit this is so true. PrePod is doing almost everything I needed Kinoma for.
    Therein lies the danger of any developer saying "we've got a solution, mod your device to meet our needs". There are typically other developers a bit more hungry, waiting in the wings for an opportunity.

    I hope Pimlico is paying attention. I really want their new stuff on the Pre, but will buy what works. (Ironically, exactly how they go strong!!)
  17. #37  
    are you able to enter a fm station url and stream radio? with prepod

    Can someone with prepod enter this stream address and let me know what happens:
    mms://media.softbrixtech.com/mixx96

    How about this one: mms://media.softbrixtech.com/hypefm
    should show video plus audio

    I bought classic to play kinoma only to find out it doesn't work, and even if it did work it would not work with bluetooth stereo headphones. Would have to go with the wires or god forbid the pre's speaker.
    Last edited by laingman; 08/13/2009 at 01:57 AM. Reason: more comments
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    For the record, PrePod streams audio OR video and can save either as well.
    Good point. I don't do podcasting stuff, so hadn't paid close attention.

    It's probably worth noting that the Pandora developer also mentioned the API's for streming audio and video were in place with the SebOS SDK
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasracer View Post
    On the note left by Kinoma.... they are incorrect. I don't believe they have taken the time to review the SDK properly as it already includes every component needed by their application.
    No. As you noted, the released webOS SDK can't even support native games, much less Kinoma Play (which uses more OS services than games do).

    This shouldn't be surprising or controversial. Palm is following Apple's (completely reasonable) iPhone strategy of exposing widget/web app functionality first, and at some point they'll figure out how to support native apps. We look forward to seeing what they can do.

    -- Charles Wiltgen
    Kinoma Notes blog | Subscribe to blog (email) | Subscribe to blog (RSS) | Follow Kinoma for news/content alerts | Follow KinomaTips for tips/tricks
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles@Kinoma View Post
    No. As you noted, the released webOS SDK can't even support native games, much less Kinoma Play (which uses more OS services than games do).

    This shouldn't be surprising or controversial. Palm is following Apple's (completely reasonable) iPhone strategy of exposing widget/web app functionality first, and at some point they'll figure out how to support native apps. We look forward to seeing what they can do.
    Define native.

    webOS applications are native to the system. There are APIs and Services that hook directly into the hardware. Sure, they're not compiled like C/C++ (so less platform portability, sadly) but they allow many of the same types of development.

    Palm is not following Apple's strategy. Apple, at first, wanted only web applications. These applications just sat on the web and you had to use them through a web browser. You couldn't save anything to your phone. You couldn't integrate with the phone.

    Palm's strategy is very different in that they give you those same tools but let you hook directly into their hardware and services.

    This is why I don't believe your company has taken a look at the webOS capabilities as you've written off webOS applications because you think they're just widgets / web applications which is very wrong.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'd prefer a compiled solution and hope one is offered at some point (the game framework rumor seems pretty strong) but this solution isn't necessarily bad and it lowers the cost and time to enter webOS development.

    (If you want to take a friendly wager then when I have more free time in October I'll bet you I can write a Kinoma clone entirely in webOS. (minus any alternative codec support; that obviously won't be possible ))
    Last edited by Kasracer; 08/13/2009 at 09:12 PM.
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