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  1.    #41  
    WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP ARGUING OVER MULTI TASKING???

    Is it impossible to stay on topic? My original post had nothing to do with multi tasking. "running multiple apps at the same time" and "multi tasking" are two different concepts.

    I think that The Pre is a better "multi tasking" device than any of the others, but they all can run multiple apps at the same time.

    Just to refresh all the people that apparently haven't read the original post, my concern is that Sprint could possibly cause the Pre to lose credibility by trying to pretend it can do something that the iPhone can't ("running multiple apps at the same time"). It would be much better if the abandoned that verbiage and instead focused on how easy it is to move between those apps (multi tasking).
  2. #42  
    Can you explain how multi-tasking and running multiple applications at the same time are different? Multi-tasking means that you can run multiple applications at the same time. The distinction you are trying to make doesn't exist. Sprint says running multiple applications at the same time because it is a better explanation of what multi-tasking is. You're argument is that Sprint/Palm should focus on the UI, and how the card system makes the multi-tasking simpler than other mobile operating systems.
  3. #43  
    While I personally respond to a product based on seeing it in action, learning about what it can and can't do, and from reviews. Advertisement now adays typically doesn't touch on that. Showing what it can do in very short segments of a commercial is done. However the advertiser has to draw the people to want to watch the commercial otherwise they will switch channels for the break or head to the kitchen or whatever during that time instead. So they have to make them surreal or draw them by simple language in combination with visual attraction to the commercial. If people are bored by the use of semi-technical or technical jargon then the marketing fails.
  4. bbr
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    #44  
    Well one bright spot in this massive fail of a thread is I've got a new person on my ignore list. Thanks OP.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by StoneRyno View Post


    If you begin loading a page and go to a different app and come back to the browser will the page have completed loading? I'm told this does not happen. Which indicates no multitasking. An already loaded page with text entered can simply have its state saved to go to another app and come back to it. This was done all the time on the old palmOS.


    Yes, thats how it works on the iPhone - the browser will complete loading a page in the background even if you switch to a different app
  6. gbp
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    All of the Iphone's core apps multi task. Only the ignorant here seem to think they can't.

    If you start a reply on Precentral in Safari, hit home, open an email to copy and paste a link and go back to Safari everything you typed will still be there. Same for when you open a text message and such. The Ipod, email, phone, messaging and browser all multi task. Including the ability to be on the phone and get data at the same time.


    Also, many of the apps on the Pre are saved state returns. Which is a double edge sword since its not truly multi tasking. You can see that when you open a browser window, type something in a reply field, change to a different program and go back to the browser which will sometimes reload and you lose everything. Also when you load something in the browser, switch windows the card will not actually update until you go back into it and it will take a couple of seconds as the data is reloaded from saved state. I think this is mostly due to the Pre having a very limited drawing capability as is evident from how easily it gets bogged down when scrolling or rendering movement on screen so Palm had to jew it down to keep things moving at a somewhat acceptable level. Not really a big deal since the interface is pretty slick.

    I don't think the ads are misleading though. I do think the Pre's "advantages" are smaller than people make them out to be. Especially since many of these advantages are currently implemented very poorly. This hopefully will change as the Pre gets some useful apps and option adding OS updates.
    Nope, not all APPS do the multitasking. Try watching a youtube video for few seconds then hit the center button do something else.
    Then go back to Youtube. It starts all over.
  7. gbp
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    #47  
    FWIW, iPhone = No Multitasking ( except voice apps , song app).
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    All of the Iphone's core apps multi task. Only the ignorant here seem to think they can't.

    If you start a reply on Precentral in Safari, hit home, open an email to copy and paste a link and go back to Safari everything you typed will still be there. Same for when you open a text message and such. The Ipod, email, phone, messaging and browser all multi task. Including the ability to be on the phone and get data at the same time.


    Also, many of the apps on the Pre are saved state returns. Which is a double edge sword since its not truly multi tasking. You can see that when you open a browser window, type something in a reply field, change to a different program and go back to the browser which will sometimes reload and you lose everything. Also when you load something in the browser, switch windows the card will not actually update until you go back into it and it will take a couple of seconds as the data is reloaded from saved state. I think this is mostly due to the Pre having a very limited drawing capability as is evident from how easily it gets bogged down when scrolling or rendering movement on screen so Palm had to jew it down to keep things moving at a somewhat acceptable level. Not really a big deal since the interface is pretty slick.

    I don't think the ads are misleading though. I do think the Pre's "advantages" are smaller than people make them out to be. Especially since many of these advantages are currently implemented very poorly. This hopefully will change as the Pre gets some useful apps and option adding OS updates.


    People keep deviating from this excellent description, but Aridon has given a perfectly clear explanation of why/how the iPhone OS *does* multi-task. I can think of several core apps that obviously multi-task, and if you look at activity monitor, you can see a bunch of them here:



    Not counting Google Earth, there are 6 core apps going, along with a bunch of background processes/daemons (lowercase names) that you can ignore. If you were to switch among these apps, they would all still be going live and can be doing things -- they are not in a suspended state (though they can idle to 0% CPU if appropriate). Switching between these apps on the iPhone is more cumbersome than doing the same thing on a Pre, because you have to hit the home button then tap the next app's icon, but otherwise it's the same outcome. The Pre's card metaphor just puts more emphasis on the idea of multi-tasking and makes it seem like a multi-window environment (which makes a lot of sense, given the way people are accustomed to interacting with desktop computer OSes).

    Where the Pre differs is that it will allow 3rd party apps (at least the ones that behave themselves and don't exceed resources) to be kept alive in the background. The iPhone doesn't currently let you do that, but of course the core apps can still be going in the background while a 3rd party app is running in the foreground.

    Both the iPhone and Pre practically limit you to working on one app at a time on the screen. Even with the card metaphor, the Pre still limits you to interfacing with one app at a time.

    It's important to realize that even the Pre could not allow some of the iPhone's more advanced third party apps to multi-task with other apps going, just because they take up massive amounts of memory or CPU -- so there's a good reason Apple enforces this approach right now. If you put these same apps on the Pre, you (as the user who controls this -- because the OS gives you that control) would come to the same realization. And it makes sense -- I wouldn't want to have a memory and CPU intensive app like Google Earth running all the time if I cared about things like battery life and heat.

    I agree Palm has to be careful with their wording, because in my experience their touted "multi-tasking" is not that much of a big deal. The apps I generally would have running on the Pre all the time are the same ones that are always running on the iPhone -- mail, web, music, etc. And it sure wouldn't hurt to note the definition of multi-tasking:

    "In computing, multitasking is a method by which multiple tasks, also known as processes, share common processing resources such as a CPU."

    Almost all recent smart phones fit this description to a large extent, just by virtue of the process model of their underlying OS.

    I think Palm would do better to emphasize the card metaphor for what it really is -- a very slick, well done way to switch between tasks.
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by oddlou View Post
    Can you explain how multi-tasking and running multiple applications at the same time are different? Multi-tasking means that you can run multiple applications at the same time. The distinction you are trying to make doesn't exist.
    sound out the words and maybe you'll get it...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbr View Post
    Well one bright spot in this massive fail of a thread is I've got a new person on my ignore list. Thanks OP.
    You're welcome. Nice to know I'll have one less person to leave meaningless comments in my threads.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    ...
    I think this is mostly due to the Pre having a very limited drawing capability as is evident from how easily it gets bogged down when scrolling or rendering movement on screen so Palm had to jew it down to keep things moving at a somewhat acceptable level. Not really a big deal since the interface is pretty slick.
    ...
    Aside from some of the erroneous information... did you really say "jew it down"?

    Would you care to explain the meaning of the term, in totally non-racist language if you can...
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinFlaps View Post
    WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP ARGUING OVER MULTI TASKING???

    Is it impossible to stay on topic? My original post had nothing to do with multi tasking. "running multiple apps at the same time" and "multi tasking" are two different concepts.

    I think that The Pre is a better "multi tasking" device than any of the others, but they all can run multiple apps at the same time.

    Just to refresh all the people that apparently haven't read the original post, my concern is that Sprint could possibly cause the Pre to lose credibility by trying to pretend it can do something that the iPhone can't ("running multiple apps at the same time"). It would be much better if the abandoned that verbiage and instead focused on how easy it is to move between those apps (multi tasking).
    Actually, I think it's funny that you went back to this. Technically, the hardware on the iPhone can multi-task, it's the OS that keeps you from running multiple Apps. And no, it can't run multiple apps at the same time.

    Sure, it can run some apps at the same time, but that's not the same thing as the built in ability to run multiple apps, which is what the Pre does.

    The ad is not misleading.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Nope, not all APPS do the multitasking. Try watching a youtube video for few seconds then hit the center button do something else.
    Then go back to Youtube. It starts all over.
    I thought my Pre worked differently than described, but wanted to be sure, so I just verified this.
    On mine, the You Tube App pauses the video. When I go back to it, it doesn't start over, it picks up where it was. The pausing my lead one to believe it's not multi-tasking, and may even be done to improve performance, but it does make sense. Why would you want a video to continue to run in the background when you weren't looking at it?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, I think it's funny that you went back to this. Technically, the hardware on the iPhone can multi-task, it's the OS that keeps you from running multiple Apps. And no, it can't run multiple apps at the same time.

    Sure, it can run some apps at the same time, but that's not the same thing as the built in ability to run multiple apps, which is what the Pre does.

    The ad is not misleading.
    The illogical hparsons is back at it again. you say that the iphone hardware can multi-task but it does not have the built-in ability to run multiple applications, and yet it runs some applications at the same time. What the heck are you saying???
  14. #54  
    Palm/Sprint looses no credibility on multitasking, becasue the Pre does what they said it would, it multitasks.

    Palm looses lots of credibility by touting universal search.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  15. #55  
    While that print ad did raise an eyebrow when I saw it in the store and I agree that it's technically inaccurate, I don't see anything wrong with Sprint's TV ad on multiple applications, it doesn't reference anything about the iPhone or what it can or can't do. But I'd be pointing fingers at Sprint, not Palm; Palm's much-maligned (at least here) "creepy" commercials, with the "bing, bing", swipe, swipe, "balls in the air" stuff, do exactly what you're saying they should do; emphasize how easy it is to handle multiple tasks and applications on the Pre. The words "mulitask" or "iPhone" never cross her rosy lips.

    I'm not really sure what Apple's play is to exploit this "questionable verbage" and ruin Palm's credibility. I certainly hope they don't think that posting activity monitor screen grabs and computer dictionary definitions of multitasking is the answer. "Forget about the actual crappy user experience (relative to WebOS), check out this chart - we technically do multitask!". Have you ever noticed that, even in their copy and paste commercial, they never actually show the process of switching between applications, and instead gloss over it with a quick cross fade? Talk about misleading...
    Last edited by GMoney749; 08/12/2009 at 11:40 AM.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    The illogical hparsons is back at it again. you say that the iphone hardware can multi-task but it does not have the built-in ability to run multiple applications, and yet it runs some applications at the same time. What the heck are you saying???
    What's with the name-calling? If you dont' like what I say, that's fine. However, just because you can't follow the conversation doesn't mean it's illogical, and your response doesn't really "inspire" me to explain further.

    In other words, play nice, or you'll find some folks don't want to bother.

    Obviously, you missed the difference between a device's ability to multi-task, and an OS's ability to run multiple applications. They are not the same thing. Others have explained it. Scroll back a bit, the explanations are spot on. If it's still not clear, here's an explaination from an iPhone developer that not only describes it well, but makes the case for why Apple's restriction of multi-tasking is a good thing. (I don't agree with him, but his explanation is very pertanent to this discussion).

    As to my "illogical" explanation - Yes, some core apps can multitask. But (as alluded to before), Apple restricts the multi-tasking ability. Palm does not. the HomeBrew app that says "hello" will multi-task as easily as Pandora does. No special calls to the hard ware, no special undocumented API's, and no need for special approval from Apple.

    Sorry if you don't like my disagreement, but I won't resort to name-calling just because we disagree.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinFlaps View Post
    I've seen several instances in this thread of people using the term "multi tasking".

    It makes sense, because that is where the Pre shines.

    However, as referenced in the original post, the verbiage in question is "ability to run multiple applications at the same time"

    I'm really not trying to stir up a big argument here, just some food for thought.
    Your concern is specifically with the proposition, "ability to run multiple applications at the same time". This, you clearly state.

    Point one: Is this statement true of the Pre or not? I haven't had any trouble verifying this statement. It's clearly true. So, this statement is not misleading in that it corresponds to something that is true of the Pre.

    Point two: The statement says nothing of the iPhone or any other device. It's really impossible to validly infer from this statement something like, "the iPhone cannot run multiple apps at the same time."

    Point three: The Pre ads also talk about and show the calendar app, GPS navigation app, etc. By your reasoning then, these commercials are stating that the competing products can't do these functions either. Are you arguing this as well?
  18. #58  
    Hparsons, I agree there's no need for name cqlling; certainly not my intent. I'm glad you agree that thr iphone's core apps multitask. This was not clear in your prior note.

    Sprint's print ad claimed that the iPhone could not multitask which is misleading since core apps can do so. It would have been more accurate for Sprint to say that multitasking is restricted or limited on the iPhone. Better yet they should have focused on how it's done - ie The card system.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by eekinsman View Post
    Palm/Sprint looses no credibility on multitasking, becasue the Pre does what they said it would, it multitasks.

    Palm looses lots of credibility by touting universal search.
    Eekinsman, sprint also made a specific claim about the iPhone that was misleading...hence the discussion on this thread.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    ...
    Sprint's print ad claimed that the iPhone could not multitask which is misleading since core apps can do so. It would have been more accurate for Sprint to say that multitasking is restricted or limited on the iPhone. Better yet they should have focused on how it's done - ie The card system.
    I disagree. I can't see the ad right now (work restricts Flahs apps), but if memory serves me right, it speaks of applications not multi-tasking. I draw the inference that you cannot simply download an app, and expect it to multi-task. This is true of the iPhone, you cannot. It's also true that you can download an app for the Pre and expect it do multi-task.

    I think that's not only what Pre owners infer, but the general public. It's also the generally accepted function of both devices, that the apps multi-task, or not, in general.
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