Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 113
  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
    I agree completely. I wanted it to be helpful.
    Well, it helped keep me amused, so that's something!
  2. SharonW's Avatar
    Posts
    402 Posts
    Global Posts
    640 Global Posts
    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    Where to begin, where to begin. So much material here...

    Me a fanboi? Never denied it. In fact I've called myself one in numerous posts of my own. Please, feel free to check my posts to verify. But tell me there are things you are not a fan of.

    It's ok for him to stand with me the second my screen cracks you say? Why yes, that's completely consistent with my original post. "Stand WITH", 'with' being the operative word. What I'm against is someone presuming to stand FOR me.

    Perhaps, there have been hundrends (in fact, maybe even thousands) of cases of defective Pres. However, you can't use other people's posts and rumors to support your claim. In both the world of logic as well as the world of law, this is something known as hear-say. You can only reliably provide testimony for something you have personally experienced. To be able to come to a reliable conclusion, you must have absolutely reliable evidence. Hear-say does not constitute such evidence.

    My "arrogance" comes from my knowledge of what does and does not constitute reliable evidence and reasoning -- nothing more than that. I'm an ontologist (what used to be called a Logician -- a scientist who studies and evaluates arguments), so I know a little bit about this sort of thing. If you wish to employ good reasoning in your own arguments, I encourage you to take an introductory course in logic in the philosophy department of your local college.

    The ultimate proof of any argument is in the quality of the evidence. If there is ANY question about the accuracy or the evidence, the conclusion will also be in question. A major problem in forums is that given a post that "claims", we don't know who's making that claim. For example, I could read 300 posts on here claiming defective Pres. For all I know, 260 of those posts were written by employees of Apple and RIM. This is why annonymity is not permitted in courts. Hence, If I want to make a conclusive statement I can only speak from my own direct experience. The only exception is if I were some sort of "reputable expert" in a relevant field. Then, if I did a scientifically based survey and found that 100 out of a 1000 Pres had defective screens, then I could report such a claim as fact. The only way you, in turn, would be wise to accpet my claim would be is if you knew something about me as being reputable, expert, etc. (even then yout would be wise to examine my methodology before deciding to accept my claim) But you don't know anything about me. You don't know me from butter. So it would be irrational for you to accept such a claim from me. Likewise, it is irrational for you to accept those 300 posts as true. The most that you could state, is that you read 300 different (though unconfirmed) posts by people claiming defective Pres. That, unfortunately, is not very useful as evidence in an argument.

    One more note about my perceived "arrogance". What may come across as arrogance is in fact excitement. I'm an ontologist precisely because logic and argumentation are a passion of mine. What you perceive as arrogance is in fact excitement. I spend so much time in the nitty-gritty of formal semantics and model theory that I don't get to do a lot of "real world" argumentation. When I do it's often quite refreshing.

    Now, I can't find an icon with a "childish" hat, but what about some childish sunglasses?
    LOL! Touché!
  3. #83  
    Not only the trolls, but I guarantee you there are people who sat on their phone or dropped it down a stairwell, then jumped on the thread and claimed the phone just exploded in their hand...
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
    ...Asking you to stop posting seems harsh, so instead I will ask you to contribute something constructive. Post how you would handle it, whatever, but keep in mind that this is a forum, and people come here for help. If it does not help you, move on.
    OK,

    If I had your experiences with the Pre and if these experiences had caused in me a level of frustration that I felt compelled to write to some AG, I would have reported to that AG my own experiences.

    I would NOT have reported that hundrends or thousands are having such and such a problem and some such. Why? Because the forum posts you have read do not constitute evidence as such. They are Hear-say. My only evidence is my own direct experience.

    If the AG in turn receives hundreds or even thousands of such letters, then it's the AG's responsibility to conclude if and that there is a problem that requires the AG's office to consider an investigation. That's their job. They are the "reputable (hopefully, haha) experts" in their field; not me, not you.
  5. Clack's Avatar
    Posts
    251 Posts
    Global Posts
    262 Global Posts
    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    OK,

    If I had your experiences with the Pre and if these experiences had caused in me a level of frustration that I felt compelled to write to some AG, I would have reported to that AG my own experiences.
    First of all, don't confuse your standards nor experiences with his. I think it is completely appropriate for him to voice his expectations and I appreciate his sharing how he as constructively dealt with his concerns. Certainly, he is not flaming fan boys, now, is he?

    I would NOT have reported that hundrends or thousands are having such and such a problem and some such. Why? Because the forum posts you have read do not constitute evidence as such. They are Hear-say. My only evidence is my own direct experience.
    Why isn't reasonable to make the claim of hundreds to thousands are having problems? If we all agree Sprint/Palm sold at least 100000 units since launch, it would be daft to think that 1% have not been returned for hardware issues. 1% of 100000 = 1000. So hundreds is certainly not unreasonable. At 2%, it becomes 2000, so thousands are also not unreasonable.

    And Sprint/Palm is likely higher because industry defect rates for small consumer electronics are normally around 4-6% of 100000 units shipped. You can do the research and/or take business classes on the subject to validate the claim if you are so inclined.

    Palm, historically, has not done a good job as the industry in shipping 1st generation hardware at any rate.

    If the AG in turn receives hundreds or even thousands of such letters, then it's the AG's responsibility to conclude if and that there is a problem that requires the AG's office to consider an investigation. That's their job. They are the "reputable (hopefully, haha) experts" in their field; not me, not you.
    The logic of this paragraph and the entire response escapes me. If people don't file complaints with specific grievances and remedies with the AG, how is the AG suppose to divine a pattern that deserves investigating let alone what the remedy consumers are expecting is? The answer is nothing would happen with out the complaints being filed.

    To emphasis the last point: it is very much the responsibility to state in clear, certain terms what you expect from a Government service. Most AGs and DAs office don't actively look for crime nor civil complaints but investigate what is reported by citizens...
    Last edited by Clack; 07/14/2009 at 11:38 PM.
    "We must not contradict, but instruct him that contradicts us; for a madman is not cured by another running mad also." - Dr. An Wang
  6. #86  
    Hilarious... You have 7 resolutions. Thats just something they will pass around the office and laugh at. Your going about that entirely the wrong way.
    I always say... if ya dont have insurance on yer phone, then I can't feel bad for ya.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
    I use a forum to contribute to those who want help in the community, I don't know why others use it, but it does not affect me.

    I did not skip any levels, it just turns out that the process is what is flawed and the reports are not being documented in a way that supports basic troubleshooting and root cause analyisis.

    Asking you to stop posting seems harsh, so instead I will ask you to contribute something constructive. Post how you would handle it, whatever, but keep in mind that this is a forum, and people come here for help. If it does not help you, move on.
    Trouble is, she's an investor in Palm, hence the shrill tone. Will she sympathize with Palm users or with Palm itself? Fascinating stuff.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    Where to begin, where to begin. So much material here...

    Me a fanboi? Never denied it. In fact I've called myself one in numerous posts of my own. Please, feel free to check my posts to verify. But tell me there are things you are not a fan of.

    It's ok for him to stand with me the second my screen cracks you say? Why yes, that's completely consistent with my original post. "Stand WITH", 'with' being the operative word. What I'm against is someone presuming to stand FOR me.

    Perhaps, there have been hundrends (in fact, maybe even thousands) of cases of defective Pres. However, you can't use other people's posts and rumors to support your claim. In both the world of logic as well as the world of law, this is something known as hear-say. You can only reliably provide testimony for something you have personally experienced. To be able to come to a reliable conclusion, you must have absolutely reliable evidence. Hear-say does not constitute such evidence.

    My "arrogance" comes from my knowledge of what does and does not constitute reliable evidence and reasoning -- nothing more than that. I'm an ontologist (what used to be called a Logician -- a scientist who studies and evaluates arguments), so I know a little bit about this sort of thing. If you wish to employ good reasoning in your own arguments, I encourage you to take an introductory course in logic in the philosophy department of your local college.

    The ultimate proof of any argument is in the quality of the evidence. If there is ANY question about the accuracy or the evidence, the conclusion will also be in question. A major problem in forums is that given a post that "claims", we don't know who's making that claim. For example, I could read 300 posts on here claiming defective Pres. For all I know, 260 of those posts were written by employees of Apple and RIM. This is why annonymity is not permitted in courts. Hence, If I want to make a conclusive statement I can only speak from my own direct experience. The only exception is if I were some sort of "reputable expert" in a relevant field. Then, if I did a scientifically based survey and found that 100 out of a 1000 Pres had defective screens, then I could report such a claim as fact. The only way you, in turn, would be wise to accpet my claim would be is if you knew something about me as being reputable, expert, etc. (even then yout would be wise to examine my methodology before deciding to accept my claim) But you don't know anything about me. You don't know me from butter. So it would be irrational for you to accept such a claim from me. Likewise, it is irrational for you to accept those 300 posts as true. The most that you could state, is that you read 300 different (though unconfirmed) posts by people claiming defective Pres. That, unfortunately, is not very useful as evidence in an argument.

    One more note about my perceived "arrogance". What may come across as arrogance is in fact excitement. I'm an ontologist precisely because logic and argumentation are a passion of mine. What you perceive as arrogance is in fact excitement. I spend so much time in the nitty-gritty of formal semantics and model theory that I don't get to do a lot of "real world" argumentation. When I do it's often quite refreshing.

    Now, I can't find an icon with a "childish" hat, but what about some childish sunglasses?
    We could go all day and night on this. The fact is, what you say could be interpreted as you being a Palm executive (knowing there is a huge mfg problem) doing some damage control.

    The big fact is this.. There was a topic posted BY ME.. With over 50,000 Views, posted on gizmodo and engadget. There may have been some exaggerations, but personally, I've gone through 4 Pres (once again, I could be a apple employee spreading false rumors).. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people on here are sincere in what they post. Whats fortunate is this; the members of this forum seem to ban together and help each other out, espc when the first batch of pre's had terrible quality control problems. You may think what you want, but you're going to have a rough life ahead of you. I can't imagine going to a bar with you and holding a conversation, or just being a normal guy and stretching the truth over a beer or two (i.e. I caught a 24inch fish, or i have a 12inch....)...

    Another stated fact are sprint employees saying they have done quite a bit of returns. Personally my friend works for sprint and he said that they have done a decent amount of returns due to the screen and build quality issues. Now, he could be a secret agent sent from Apple, to take up a part time job at Sprint and do some bashing and damage to Palm through his Sprint job. Obviously this would have to be a top secret affair since I've known the kid for 5 years. So I have to be careful in listening to him.

    Honestly, enough of this horse shat.. The fact is, the person who posted this topic was only going into this with a good heart. He did his research and found other people with the same problem. He then wrote up a letter stating what he thought would be a fair term. His letter was signed and addressed by himself, no one else. He was using other peoples experience, but he was addressing the issue himself. He was very dissatisfied with the build quality of the Palm Pre and he spoke up. Just like thousands have on numerous other products around the world. The second we start questioning speaking up when we didn't get what we paid for, is the second we start getting really low quality products. Remember companies try to make money, not always in the best of ways.

    Anyways ronlongo I didnt make the hat comment, it wasn't right of the OP to start trashing people personally. I personally wear my steelers hat everywhere outside of work.
  9. stubbs's Avatar
    Posts
    425 Posts
    Global Posts
    442 Global Posts
    #89  
    Wow, why are so many people up in arms about this? He's entitled to write whatever letters he wants, and it won't hurt anybody else. At least he's being proactive. I say props to the OP, regardless of the fact that I've not had such problem. I, for one, would like acknowledgment from Palm that it is an issue, in the event that it ever does happen to my Pre. This may help secure that if nothing else.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by Reminiz View Post
    lol, I thought it was funny myself. Although, why didn't he comment on the gold chain or the unbuttoned shirt with the chest hair crawling out?
    I was fine with all of that, it's the sunglasses that makes Ronlongo look so childlike. He should get rid of those, and get a real handle like "Mungo"...
  11. #91  
    Mungo, Good luck with your letter.

    Wow this post has created some tension.... So lets all sit back and relax. Everyone on here has a right to voice their concerns. I understand how the OP post may be offensive to some, yet it is his given right. After rereading this post, the OP IMO doesn't appear to be "speaking for" us. I took it as he is speaking for himself while referencing that there are "some cases" of phones breaking.

    I do think the OP approach is drastic and isn't something I would do. Nevertheless, sometime all it takes is for someone willing to stand out and do something drastic while possibly bringing a lot of negative attention to himself. If the OP actions brings change which benefits us then everyone would applaud him. Yet, more likely nothing will be done, but at the very least the OP didn't limit his actions based on the possibility/likelihood that nothing will be done. Remember never tell yourself "No" all we can do is ask and try and hopefully we get what we ask for.

    Keep in mind, I am not taking anyone's side and wasn't going to post anything but figured maybe I can help reduce the tension. Everyone's post is valid and appropriate, but let not bash someone for sharing their experience.
  12. ken0311's Avatar
    Posts
    41 Posts
    Global Posts
    43 Global Posts
    #92  
    Let the guy do his thing. I hate Apple, but they have a hand up in this matter because they admitted to issue of their phones overheating and turning into a frying pan. Palm has been tight-lipped about this whole issue in regards to the screen *defect* with their Pre. I've had 4 pre's, waiting for my 5th(a refurb) from customer care. The operators are obviously from another country, but I asked them what were the main issues with returns, and she told me cracked screens are a #1 symptom of a defect Palm is investigating atm and that they need to collect as many damaged phones as possible to discern what is causing the problem, but they think it is heat and pressure.

    If Palm came out tomorrow and admitted to a defect in their phone, it would hit the stock, and phone sales. Instead, they are ramping up commercials on every medium to promote the phone. They are being sneaky, and they're trying to push this issue under the carpet.

    Either way, Palm is wrong by not coming out and saying something about the phones returned. A simple message saying, "There was a bad batch out there and problems have been corrected", would be nice.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clack View Post
    ...
    It's to bad many consumors look to business for education rather than understanding such issues for themselves. But then again, most go to public schools, huh?
    to -> too
    consumors -> consumers
    makes the "most go to public schools" quip a bit ironic, no?
  14. SharonW's Avatar
    Posts
    402 Posts
    Global Posts
    640 Global Posts
    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Trouble is, she's an investor in Palm, hence the shrill tone. Will she sympathize with Palm users or with Palm itself? Fascinating stuff.
    Shrill tone? Might I inquire as to how this can be construed as shrill?

    HUH?!?! They replaced the phone and you're still complaining? Also, don't you think you skipped a few higher levels? Like how about higher levels within Sprint? This makes no sense.
    That is the comment I made to which he responded. Moreover, why should I sympathize with him when Sprint remedied his problem? Where's the tragedy here?

    Investor or not I also plan on becoming a Pre owner/user. That you should question my motives rather than the author's says volumes about you and not me.
  15. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #95  
    Is there any validity to this claim?

    Palm’s policy supported by Sprint is that all phone's with cracked screens are broken because of abuse.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
    ...
    Asking you to stop posting seems harsh, so instead I will ask you to contribute something constructive. Post how you would handle it, whatever, but keep in mind that this is a forum, and people come here for help. If it does not help you, move on.
    You said (I think) they replaced the phone.

    Here's how I would handle it:

    Thank you
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    ...

    Now, I can't find an icon with a "childish" hat, but what about some childish sunglasses?
    HA!!! Told you they were childish, and that was before reading this post.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
    Palm’s policy supported by Sprint is that all phone's with cracked screens are broken because of abuse.[/COLOR]

    Dont get mad at me - But I've repaired thousands of phones over the last several years (sprint & nextel) and every time there has been a broken LCD/screen it was because of abuse or some kind of accident (dropping, bumping it, etc).

    You could theoretically crack the phone by exposing it to extreme temperatures (get it real hot then put it on ice) but its far fetched at best.

    Granted the Palm Pre is a brand new phone and could be made of different materials, but cracks in general don't appear out of nowhere, they start somewhere and get worse over time until they are really noticeable.


    The only time's i've ever heard of a screen breaking on its own is when a parent brings the kid's phone in, the kid tells the parent 'i dont know i just woke up and it was broke' - i explain to the parent that it is probably 1 in 100million chance of that happening - they interrogate the kid, then the truth comes out about 'well i let joe borrow it and i dont know what happened' then 'joe said he dropped it but not hard' then 'joe broke it, he's paying for it' etc etc..

    again.. just the opinion of someone with 5000+ repairs under his belt.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by stubbs View Post
    Wow, why are so many people up in arms about this? He's entitled to write whatever letters he wants, and it won't hurt anybody else. At least he's being proactive. I say props to the OP, regardless of the fact that I've not had such problem. I, for one, would like acknowledgment from Palm that it is an issue, in the event that it ever does happen to my Pre. This may help secure that if nothing else.
    You're absolutely right.

    BTW, I wrote a couple letters to your boss about you, because I'm entitled. Based on some stuff I read about you on the internet. At least I think it was about you, might have been some other guy named Stubbs - it's kind of hard to tell on the internet. No matter; nobody will get hurt by it, except maybe you, and you probably deserve it anyway. Probably.
  20. SharonW's Avatar
    Posts
    402 Posts
    Global Posts
    640 Global Posts
    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    You're absolutely right.

    BTW, I wrote a couple letters to your boss about you, because I'm entitled. Based on some stuff I read about you on the internet. At least I think it was about you, might have been some other guy named Stubbs - it's kind of hard to tell on the internet. No matter; nobody will get hurt by it, except maybe you, and you probably deserve it anyway. Probably.
    ROTFL!! It's really funny with all the dander up in this thread how terribly amusing it has been.
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions