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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    You can justify it however you want but it is obvious the Pre is not up to par on using that nice processor to get things opened. It is also pretty obvious that most of the apps are not optimized as they tend to chug at time and frame rates can drop on scrolling and other activities.

    So if you think Palm doesn't have some serious tweaking to do you haven't been using the same device as me. Sure I love the phone but sticking your heads into a hole anytime something negative comes up doesn't help us in the long run.

    The more pressure on Palm to get this device on par with Apple's GS the better. We all benefit from competition.

    Say what you will about Apple but their implementation of video and copy / paste is excellent. As is their calendar and web browsing. So yes we get multi tasking and that is huge but it is no excuse for Palm to deliver everything else in a mediocre fashion.
    I believe that, yes, Apple's third generation device and OS are more optimized and refined than Palm's first generation device and OS. I also believe that when it rains the ground tends to get wet. I don't, however, necessarily believe it's important to point out such obvious facts as if they're profound.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    I believe that, yes, Apple's third generation device and OS are more optimized and refined than Palm's first generation device and OS. I also believe that when it rains the ground tends to get wet. I don't, however, necessarily believe it's important to point out such obvious facts as if they're profound.
    Totally agree. People have such short memories. All the iPhone fanbois seem to have forgotten that the iPhone couldn't even do Exchange EAS out of the box and it took a while before it could. There are so many things that were not perfect and are still not perfect. There were cries for a recall because of how many glass screens got broken. Now here we are constantly having to point these facts out to people who are ignorant of the facts or just don't remember.

    The Pre has some issues. No one is saying it doesn't. I've been an early adopter since the very first smartphone came out and will continue to be an early adopter. Some of us are OK with being early adopters and find it interesting in a way that say, the iPhone and Blackberry Curve are NOT interesting.

    Mods create a separate sub form for all these complaint threads and let us early adopters get back to the business of enjoying the Pre.
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aridon View Post
    You can justify it however you want but it is obvious the Pre is not up to par on using that nice processor to get things opened. It is also pretty obvious that most of the apps are not optimized as they tend to chug at time and frame rates can drop on scrolling and other activities.

    So if you think Palm doesn't have some serious tweaking to do you haven't been using the same device as me. Sure I love the phone but sticking your heads into a hole anytime something negative comes up doesn't help us in the long run.

    The more pressure on Palm to get this device on par with Apple's GS the better. We all benefit from competition.

    Say what you will about Apple but their implementation of video and copy / paste is excellent. As is their calendar and web browsing. So yes we get multi tasking and that is huge but it is no excuse for Palm to deliver everything else in a mediocre fashion.
    If I leave my cards open, I'm the fastest draw in the west. Not fanboy speculation - undisputed fact, cowboy.

    Give me three years and I can implement cut and paste.
  4. edbtzy's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    If I leave my cards open, I'm the fastest draw in the west. Not fanboy speculation - undisputed fact, cowboy.

    Give me three years and I can implement cut and paste.
    Lol. Thats great
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    If I leave my cards open, I'm the fastest draw in the west. Not fanboy speculation - undisputed fact, cowboy.

    Give me three years and I can implement cut and paste.
    And if all you compete with are two year old devices don't be surprised when people pass up your current offering.
  6. #26  
    Wow. You totally ignored Wirelessness's post. Read it, and move on.
  7. smonme's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirelessness View Post
    Totally agree. People have such short memories. All the iPhone fanbois seem to have forgotten that the iPhone couldn't even do Exchange EAS out of the box and it took a while before it could. There are so many things that were not perfect and are still not perfect. There were cries for a recall because of how many glass screens got broken. Now here we are constantly having to point these facts out to people who are ignorant of the facts or just don't remember.

    The Pre has some issues. No one is saying it doesn't. I've been an early adopter since the very first smartphone came out and will continue to be an early adopter. Some of us are OK with being early adopters and find it interesting in a way that say, the iPhone and Blackberry Curve are NOT interesting.

    Mods create a separate sub form for all these complaint threads and let us early adopters get back to the business of enjoying the Pre.
    I agree there should be a separate forum called "palm pre complaints" so everyone who is unhappy with the phone or feels it isnt for them can talk to other people about it who share the same general view point, with so many of us early adopters actually liking our purchase/contract switches, arguements seem to happen almost immediately once someone says pre sucks iphones better. Just to jump on the band wagon though, as I've been reading through this forum since before i got my phone (kept deciding whether or not Id actually post if i signed up) alot of the iphone 3G vs pre comparisons dont seem correct or they are written without even actually using either phone, wish it could stop, it hurts to read it.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Well, would you care to share with me a technical explanation for why that's the case, because I don't get it.
    It's actually a simple concept. I would presume you understand that 1. cpu cycles consume power, 2. the act of running a single, stand-alone program (referred to as a task or process) consumes CPU cycles. In a multitasking environment, multiple processes can operate simultaneously, with each one of them demanding CPU cycles as a function of their properties. Some programs require few CPU cycles, other programs require lots. So, if a program is loaded and therefore acting as one of the processes on a device, it is adding to power consumption. More programs = more power required. The only discriminator with running processes is how much CPU time each process uses when loaded - it varies by function. Now do you get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    I intentionally excluded location service applications because I know they'll try to keep updated if they're left open and burn up battery, but how exactly is my email application using more battery because I left the card open? It's pulling down email whether it's open or closed. How is it using more battery when it's sitting there doing nothing in between that? The phone app, the web page, the SMS window, contacts - they're all just sitting there doing nothing. Maybe using memory, but not battery.
    Hey! I thought you said you didn't get it! But you're already performing battery management by reducing background processes. All programs loaded into memory require the CPU to do work. At a minimum there are memory management tasks (complicated by more and more running processes), there are background tasks individual programs perform beyond what you can observe on your screen (hardware, software interactions to name a few) and of course there are the more overt background operations you obviously have a hint of since you clearly understand the concept of shutting programs down to reduce battery consumption. While some programs may not draw much additional power when running, they all still do.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    But I understand why we're here - battery life was supposed to kill this phone even well before the launch and it's hard to let that one go.
    Some possibly believed that. Real world operation indicates that many have battery life challenges they're dealing with while many do not.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    My point was, yours was a logical fallacy, in this case a loaded question.
    It wasn't my point (someone else posted it), but I'll respond to your comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    You asked "Doesn't it decrease the already poor battery life to leave many applications open though?" You assume in your question that the battery life is "already poor," meaning that one can't really answer your question without accepting your erroneous assumption.
    Agreed, it might be considered a fallacy of many questions, but the "already poor" assertion is not entirely false as it has been stated here in multiple posts. The heart of the question (after the minor distraction of "already poor") is valid, as I previously stated in a post you can attribute to me.
  10. #30  
    Here's another wrinkle to consider with regards to the battery life and leaving multiple cards open: which takes more battery, opening an application multiple times as you use it throughout the day, or keeping it open and just using it when you need it? I would think that for the less intensive apps or apps that are already doing things in the background (email, calendar, messaging) it would be more efficient to leave them open than to open them several times throughout the day. You can't neglect the power needed to open an application, especially since it takes so long.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Here's another wrinkle to consider with regards to the battery life and leaving multiple cards open: which takes more battery, opening an application multiple times as you use it throughout the day, or keeping it open and just using it when you need it? I would think that for the less intensive apps or apps that are already doing things in the background (email, calendar, messaging) it would be more efficient to leave them open than to open them several times throughout the day. You can't neglect the power needed to open an application, especially since it takes so long.
    This is a valid consideration (but certainly not a wrinkle). It would depend entirely on how often one uses an app. Opening an app twice in a day on a monotasker phone probably doesn't matter. Opening it 100s of times might matter.
  12. Minsc's Avatar
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    #32  
    For running applications that are not doing anything (a static webpage, the mail client, calendar client, etc) I don't think the amount of CPU usage needed to keep those applications alive is going to make any noticeable dent in battery life.

    However, one consideration that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the potential impact to the RAM. The 256MB of ram the Pre uses for running applications (execution space) needs some voltage. I would assume (someone can correct me if I'm wrong here) that as more RAM is consumed, more juice is required to keep it "alive". How much of a hit that is on the battery I don't know. My guess is that's it's small.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    It's actually a simple concept. I would presume you understand that 1. cpu cycles consume power, 2. the act of running a single, stand-alone program (referred to as a task or process) consumes CPU cycles. In a multitasking environment, multiple processes can operate simultaneously, with each one of them demanding CPU cycles as a function of their properties. Some programs require few CPU cycles, other programs require lots. So, if a program is loaded and therefore acting as one of the processes on a device, it is adding to power consumption. More programs = more power required. The only discriminator with running processes is how much CPU time each process uses when loaded - it varies by function. Now do you get it?

    Hey! I thought you said you didn't get it! But you're already performing battery management by reducing background processes. All programs loaded into memory require the CPU to do work. At a minimum there are memory management tasks (complicated by more and more running processes), there are background tasks individual programs perform beyond what you can observe on your screen (hardware, software interactions to name a few) and of course there are the more overt background operations you obviously have a hint of since you clearly understand the concept of shutting programs down to reduce battery consumption. While some programs may not draw much additional power when running, they all still do.

    Some possibly believed that. Real world operation indicates that many have battery life challenges they're dealing with while many do not.
    Oh, I get all that my friend. What I don't get, and I notice you're ignoring the point, is how any of that is having a practical affect on my battery life. I mean, that's the point here; to discuss the "issue" with card loading, not to just come up with reasons to find the Pre is deficient, right?

    Programs like the email program are going to use cycles in order to fetch email, but that's going to happen whether the actual APP is open or not since that PROCESS that using the CPU is still going. There's nothing else I leave open that uses up enough cycles to matter when the phone is asleep. And I do believe that I have TWICE said that I specifically don't leave cards open that I know are going to consume battery without benefit, and now you bring it up here like it's some big revelation about battery managment.

    If I leave my VCR plugged in, it uses electrical cycles and affects my electric bill, but I don't unplug it every day.

    At the end of the day, the phone which I actually own and use, still can't hear you, since it has over half its battery life intact when I put it on the charger at night, and you're just another guy in here using theory as a hammer to bash the Pre.
    Last edited by GMoney749; 06/24/2009 at 08:59 AM.
  14. jtiis's Avatar
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    #34  
    While I like the ability to multitask, the underlying problem remains, the Pre is too slow in responding to commands at times. I find this to be esp. true when I first start to use it in the morning. I don't know how many times I've not seen a response to a button push or gesture, only to get where I didn't want to be because the phone responds just after I pushed or swiped a second time. This is frustrating, but I hope/suspect it will get solved as Palm tweaks the phone/memory/whatever...
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    It wasn't my point (someone else posted it), but I'll respond to your comments.
    Agreed, it might be considered a fallacy of many questions, but the "already poor" assertion is not entirely false as it has been stated here in multiple posts. The heart of the question (after the minor distraction of "already poor") is valid, as I previously stated in a post you can attribute to me.
    Not to do distract your theorizing with actual data. You know, the kind of data that can be provided by an actual Pre owner but I will try anyway.

    At 12:00PM battery level 91% w/ 0 cards opened
    Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and GPS radios all on

    I proceeded to open 18 cards. Including, email w/ 2 accounts, Tweed, Facebook, 3 websites, NY Times, AP News, Fandango, SMS, Google Maps, App Catalog, Accu Weather and a few others I can't remember right now. NOT Sprint Navigation.

    At 6:25PM battery level is 59% w/ all 18 cards still open. Made several phone calls and Tweets, emails and texts as well.

    Now in my opinion this is pretty decent battery performance, at least on par with most other true smartphones that I have owned. Of course your mileage may very....as long as you have a Pre to test. I think it's safe to say you can leave your most used cards open all you like and not have to worry.

    I will post back an update of the CPU level for anyone interested.
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirelessness View Post
    Not to do distract your theorizing with actual data. You know, the kind of data that can be provided by an actual Pre owner but I will try anyway.

    At 12:00PM battery level 91% w/ 0 cards opened
    Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and GPS radios all on

    I proceeded to open 18 cards. Including, email w/ 2 accounts, Tweed, Facebook, 3 websites, NY Times, AP News, Fandango, SMS, Google Maps, App Catalog, Accu Weather and a few others I can't remember right now. NOT Sprint Navigation.

    At 6:25PM battery level is 59% w/ all 18 cards still open. Made several phone calls and Tweets, emails and texts as well.

    Now in my opinion this is pretty decent battery performance, at least on par with most other true smartphones that I have owned. Of course your mileage may very....as long as you have a Pre to test. I think it's safe to say you can leave your most used cards open all you like and not have to worry.

    I will post back an update of the CPU level for anyone interested.
    Stop confusing things with the facts of actual device use. What we need is more threads comparing statistics with the iPhone because, you know, stats are what your average user actually cares about.

    Then what you need to do is put the Pre up against the iPhone, operating it in the lame-a$$ way you operate the iPhone, instead of the way the Pre was designed to be used, and as a result come to the conclusion that the Pre is a failure because it's sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much slower. A couple seconds for a card to open is ludicrous.

    /sarcasm

    I wonder how many of these people use their PCs by opening up one app at a time, and then complain about how long they take to open.
  17. emcclure's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    It's all good until you get the dreaded "No more cards" message.
    How many cards did you have open?
  18. #38  
    Just wanted to post the update on battery utilization as promised.

    after 12 hours w/ 18 cards open and numerous phone calls plus Wi-Fi, bluetooth and GPS enabled:

    Battery at 23%

    For a total of 68% battery consumption in 12 hours. Not the best battery life I've ever seen but I think it's safe to put to bed any worries about leaving cards open excessively draining the battery.

    18 cards open at one time is way too many to manage anyways. Just leave email, sms, phone, contacts and whatever else you like to quickly switch back and forth...this is the way the device was designed to be used. Who really cares if it takes a few seconds to load the email application? I haven't closed mine in days!!! Isn't that faster than making at least 2 moves to get an application open on any other device?
    Palm Pre
    (formerly TouchPro, iPhone 3G, Curve, 8800, Treo800p, E61, N9300, Treo 700p ,Treo 600, I500, I330, Treo 300, I300, 6035)
  19. #39  
    It should be remembered that the phone is running Linux, so we can make assumptions about the process model.

    If a process is sleeping (the default mode for a process that isn't consuming any CPU cycles) then the net loss of battery life would be essentially 0.

    The question is: do the cards "sleep"? My guess would be that the answer is: "it depends".

    For example, I assume that the calculator app, if open, and in the background, would assume nearly 0 cpu cycles if you're not using it. The same with many other apps that are idle. If the process is periodically doing things in the background (checking mail across a network) or constantly (streaming music and decoding that music), then the CPU cycles are going to be more.

    Really, in the end, just compare the Pre to a normal desktop computer running Linux and you should have a pretty close idea as to how it will behave in terms of power usage.
  20. samid's Avatar
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    #40  
    in reply to the original thread topic.....the pre is slow. keeping cards open makes it faster, but it is definitely slow. navigating through the old palmos was muuuuuch faster. i like all of the screen effects when opening an app, but i would much rather have it go faster. i know this is slightly different, but i also think that the dialpad app is super slow. its frustrating. especially when using speed dial or switching to the call log screen. ahhh
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