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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSkyBlueWind View Post
    Didn't know that my post would cause this much stir.

    What I believe in is that regardless of "how old your stuff" is, you have to compare it with others at the same point of time. It really doesn't matter WebOS is only version 1.0 and iPhone is on 3.0. As of today, WebOS is far from polished whereas iPhone is very well polished.

    Palm shouldn't expect people to be generous and blind of their product's shortcoming just cause they just brought a new OS to the market. If they published WebOS as Beta and let people have it for free, then it's acceptable. But, if Palm is charging people as much as Apple does for their newest iPhone, Palm shouldn't expect people to have any less expectation than what they have for iPhone.

    If you are a student at school, your mistake and shortcoming can be excused. That's what school is for. School is a place for students to learn from their mistakes and become ready for the real world. When you get a job, there is much less tolerance in mistakes and shortcomings. You shouldn't expect your new job to pay high salary while you take 2 years to get trained when you are to retire in 5 years. The same logic should be applied here, I believe. WebOS is not a beta product. Palm Pre is not a test-driving product handed out to us to test out. Once you are out in the market, you are what you are. Not what you can become in next 2 years. If you are a young athlete with great potential to mature for next 20 years, then yeah, the market will be willing to work with you. If we are talking about technology products that will become obsolete within 5 years, you better be at your top performance on your first year. Don't bind people with 2 year contacts while you work out your kinks.

    Of course, I didn't expect WebOS or Palm Pre to be perfect from the get-go. But compared to the market leader (Apple iPhone), it lacks the refinement in both hardware and software. I am willing to wait a bit, but I don't want Palm to perfect their craftsmanship by the time my 2 year contact is over, Palm releases Pre 2, or Apple releases iPhone 4G.

    As a customer, I don't care if it's version 1.0 or version 100.0. When I am paying for something, I want it to perform at its peak.

    I love Palm, and I hate Apple. But as a paying customer, I am going to stay with the one who meets my need - now.

    With that said, I must admit that I am growing on Pre. The more I use it, the more I like it (like somebody said earlier in the first page). It's just that Palm Pre lacks many softwares that are essential to me, but, unfortunately, many developers are focusing on iPhone-only and don't have any plan to make their apps available on Pre just yet. Can I live without all those apps I have on iPhone 3G? I am still not sure. The fact that Sprint coverage is not much better than AT&T in my area doesn't help much, either. (I live in Nor Cal.) I just hope that Palm does something fast to close the gap so that I can stay with Pre. I really really want to!

    I agree with that completely and that is the point I think.

    Somehow some want this phone (which i love now btw)

    to get a free pass because others also have missing things. or because they use a new os or because its version 1.0

    all nonsense, if this was a free beta id agree to that.
  2. The Duck's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    I totally agree. With the kinks worked out, webos is gonna be huge...
    Let's hope that Palm has enough investors and money for any future.
  3. #63  
    I would have to agree with the hardware. when closed, it feels more solid, but when open, it feels on the cheap side, but I do think that because its two pieces, it will never feel as solid as the iphone or the Bold because they are one piece. I also wish the phone was bigger which will mean bigger screen and bigger battery. I'm waiting to see what Palm comes up with next June. Hoping they make a candybar style for the next revision.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Outrigger View Post
    I would have to agree with the hardware. when closed, it feels more solid, but when open, it feels on the cheap side, but I do think that because its two pieces, it will never feel as solid as the iphone or the Bold because they are one piece. I also wish the phone was bigger which will mean bigger screen and bigger battery. I'm waiting to see what Palm comes up with next June. Hoping they make a candybar style for the next revision.
    I hope so too...a treo ultimate? like the Pro only with a larger screen??
  5. urkel's Avatar
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSkyBlueWind View Post
    What I believe in is that regardless of "how old your stuff" is, you have to compare it with others at the same point of time. It really doesn't matter WebOS is only version 1.0 and iPhone is on 3.0. As of today, WebOS is far from polished whereas iPhone is very well polished.
    That is a fact that some people here are choosing to ignore. Whether it's WinMo 6.5, iPhone OS 3.0 or WebOS 1.03 You judge a product by the CURRENT industry standards, not by what revision it is.

    In some ways then Palm has tougher obstacles to overcome because it's getting to the game late. But in more ways then they've got it easy because they get to look at the success and failures of the industry to guide them.

    BTW, pointing out gaffs in previous revisions of competing products doesn't make a problem go away, it just emphasizes the fact that Palm created a problem that the rest of the industry already fixed a while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueSkyBlueWind View Post
    I love Palm, and I hate Apple. But as a paying customer, I am going to stay with the one who meets my need - now.

    With that said, I must admit that I am growing on Pre. The more I use it, the more I like it (like somebody said earlier in the first page). It's just that Palm Pre lacks many softwares that are essential to me
    Buy the phone that does what you need. It's a simple concept that gets complicated because BOTH phones can do what we need. So the decision now is to figure out what UNIQUE features one phone has over the other. And right now then it's not hard to make an argument that favors the iPhone.

    Pre diehards get really offended by hearing things like that, but it's the truth. We're supporting the underdog and our path isn't going to be as easy as it is for them. It's not a big deal and it definitely isn't something worth getting worked up about.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    That is a fact that some people here are choosing to ignore. Whether it's WinMo 6.5, iPhone OS 3.0 or WebOS 1.03 You judge a product by the CURRENT industry standards, not by what revision it is.

    In some ways then Palm has tougher obstacles to overcome because it's getting to the game late. But in more ways then they've got it easy because they get to look at the success and failures of the industry to guide them.

    BTW, pointing out gaffs in previous revisions of competing products doesn't make a problem go away, it just emphasizes the fact that Palm created a problem that the rest of the industry already fixed a while ago.


    Buy the phone that does what you need. It's a simple concept that gets complicated because BOTH phones can do what we need. So the decision now is to figure out what UNIQUE features one phone has over the other. And right now then it's not hard to make an argument that favors the iPhone.

    Pre diehards get really offended by hearing things like that, but it's the truth. We're supporting the underdog and our path isn't going to be as easy as it is for them. It's not a big deal and it definitely isn't something worth getting worked up about.
    This same argument (supporting the underdog and having a rough path and not having everything at this point) is EXACTLY what people were saying when iPhone 2G came out in June 2007. At that time the comparison was to WinMo,S60 and BB. People chose not to get an iPhone because it lacked a TON of features. I chose to get one and it was fun seeing it grow into what it is today...without our support Palm doesn't stand a chance in hell - they need people to buy the Pre knowing it's not perfect yet but give them time (and money) to develop it
    "There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't"
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobilehavoc View Post
    This same argument (supporting the underdog and having a rough path and not having everything at this point) is EXACTLY what people were saying when iPhone 2G came out in June 2007. At that time the comparison was to WinMo,S60 and BB. People chose not to get an iPhone because it lacked a TON of features. I chose to get one and it was fun seeing it grow into what it is today...without our support Palm doesn't stand a chance in hell - they need people to buy the Pre knowing it's not perfect yet but give them time (and money) to develop it
    I think you missed the prior points. When iPhone came out, it was a significant change in direction for the smart phone. Regardless of the bugs, or missing functionality, the new system to many was such great step that the bugs / functionality was acceptable. Furthermore, the iPhone had a LOT more polish than the Pre on the limited feature set of the time. But today, the Pre exists in a world where people already have expectations of a easy GUI, no little gotchas in applications etc, ... and this is fundamentally the issue.

    Let's hope Palm can stay around long enough to give Web OS better hardware and refinement.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by jsimon9633 View Post
    But again this is the internet everyone always has the OPPOSITE view. I was merely stating my opinion. If you dont agree, then dont. Life goes on.

    nobody here is RIGHT or WRONG.
    Whoa, there! As a pompous Los Angeles attorney working for a huge insurance company, I KNOW that I am right, always have been, always will be....uhm, what are we talking about?
    Palm III -> Palm m500 -> Zire 71 -> Zire 72 -> Treo 700p -> Palm Pre Minus -> TWO Touchpads 16gb -. and unfortunately, a Motorola Photon 4G...
  9. #69  
    People experiecing a better GUI is dependent upon what phone people are moving from. Most of us that are leaving our contracts, do not have that comparison. If what we had was great, we wouln't be leaving.
  10. SharonW's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    I think you missed the prior points. When iPhone came out, it was a significant change in direction for the smart phone. Regardless of the bugs, or missing functionality, the new system to many was such great step that the bugs / functionality was acceptable. Furthermore, the iPhone had a LOT more polish than the Pre on the limited feature set of the time. But today, the Pre exists in a world where people already have expectations of a easy GUI, no little gotchas in applications etc, ... and this is fundamentally the issue.

    Let's hope Palm can stay around long enough to give Web OS better hardware and refinement.
    You don't think synergy and multi-tasking and cards and the cloud are a major change in direction?!?! Not to mention, WebOS, a far easier, more open development platform.

    Sorry, but if the bugs/functionality of the first iPhone can be so easily dismissed, so can the Pre's.

    What Palm, actually Rubenstein did in 15 months is a freakin' miracle. Although from a customer's perspective this may not mean much, but I think knowing the story behind the development tells you a lot. If they could accomplish a smart phone that is actually a contender is so little time, just imagine what will unfold in the next few months.

    "In June 2007 private equity firm Elevation Partners put $325 million into the struggling devicemaker. (Elevation is also a shareholder in FORBES' parent company.) The financiers brought in Apple's former senior vice president of hardware engineering, Jonathan Rubinstein, as executive chairman.


    Rubinstein convened a design group led by Skillman. He poached fellow Apple veteran Michael Bell to head product development and created a spot for a director of human interface and user experience. That went to Matias Duarte, a designer who helped shape the T-Mobile Sidekick and the Helio Ocean.

    Duarte says Rubinstein lured him from Helio with the promise that Palm would be a company where design mattered and where engineers and designers worked in close partnership. Bell says he joined because Palm is "big enough to accomplish great things and small enough to be collaborative."

    "It's like the chains have been cut off, and we can do all these amazing things," effuses Skillman.

    Rubinstein scrapped several products in the pipeline and put the company on a path to design a novel handset in 15 months instead of the usual 18-month development cycle. The device needed to appeal at once to corporations as well as consumers, something that neither the BlackBerry nor iPhone has done.

    "Even the earliest concepts and models [of the Palm Pre] had a fluid, organic aspect," says Duarte. "They didn't look like pieces of technology but like found objects."


    The full story here:
    How Palm Designed The Pre - Forbes.com
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobilehavoc View Post
    ...without our support Palm doesn't stand a chance in hell - they need people to buy the Pre knowing it's not perfect yet but give them time (and money) to develop it
    I don't base my cell phone phone purchases on charity or altruism. I'm more Darwinian when it comes to consumer products.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by SharonW View Post
    You don't think synergy and multi-tasking and cards and the cloud are a major change in direction?!?! Not to mention, WebOS, a far easier, more open development platform.

    Sorry, but if the bugs/functionality of the first iPhone can be so easily dismissed, so can the Pre's.

    What Palm, actually Rubenstein did in 15 months is a freakin' miracle. Although from a customer's perspective this may not mean much, but I think knowing the story behind the development tells you a lot. If they could accomplish a smart phone that is actually a contender is so little time, just imagine what will unfold in the next few months.

    "In June 2007 private equity firm Elevation Partners put $325 million into the struggling devicemaker. (Elevation is also a shareholder in FORBES' parent company.) The financiers brought in Apple's former senior vice president of hardware engineering, Jonathan Rubinstein, as executive chairman.


    Rubinstein convened a design group led by Skillman. He poached fellow Apple veteran Michael Bell to head product development and created a spot for a director of human interface and user experience. That went to Matias Duarte, a designer who helped shape the T-Mobile Sidekick and the Helio Ocean.

    Duarte says Rubinstein lured him from Helio with the promise that Palm would be a company where design mattered and where engineers and designers worked in close partnership. Bell says he joined because Palm is "big enough to accomplish great things and small enough to be collaborative."

    "It's like the chains have been cut off, and we can do all these amazing things," effuses Skillman.

    Rubinstein scrapped several products in the pipeline and put the company on a path to design a novel handset in 15 months instead of the usual 18-month development cycle. The device needed to appeal at once to corporations as well as consumers, something that neither the BlackBerry nor iPhone has done.

    "Even the earliest concepts and models [of the Palm Pre] had a fluid, organic aspect," says Duarte. "They didn't look like pieces of technology but like found objects."


    The full story here:
    How Palm Designed The Pre - Forbes.com
    All those features are FULL of bugs and lack polish. Great, so Facebook is imported because of synergy, but there is NO control on what address get pulled into facebook -- another example of lack of polish. How about the issues related to AIM and Synergy? Again, lack of polish.

    Great ideas, polish is lacking.
  13. SharonW's Avatar
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    #73  
    And not to be moribund about the future of the iPhone, but what if the rebirth of Palm coincides with the last breath of Apple without Jobs' commandeering vision? This analyst says what others don't dare, but gauging stock prices, PALM up big today, APPL down again...well, it does give one pause to wonder about the continued evolution of the iPhone. In essence, with Rubenstein as CEO, PALM might be the new branch of the evolutionary tree:

    Videos On Stock Market & Wall Street News, Trading & Investing News & Market Analysis Videos | TheStreet.com

    Granted, none of this relates to customer experience in the present. It, however, may be a future guide.
  14. urkel's Avatar
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    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobilehavoc View Post
    ..without our support Palm doesn't stand a chance in hell - they need people to buy the Pre knowing it's not perfect yet but give them time (and money) to develop it
    Like so many of us have given them time and money to develop the Palm Pilot through it's decade long journey to mediocrity?

    When they start offering profit sharing for customers then I'll view them as an investment. But until then I will treat them like a company that is supposed to either lead the industry or at least keep up with them. They're doing pretty good now but theyve got to keep a better eye on what a 2009 device should be equipped with.
  15. SharonW's Avatar
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    All those features are FULL of bugs and lack polish. Great, so Facebook is imported because of synergy, but there is NO control on what address get pulled into facebook -- another example of lack of polish. How about the issues related to AIM and Synergy? Again, lack of polish.

    Great ideas, polish is lacking.
    Ah, I see, now it's not lack of a "new direction" it's "polish." Would that be like the polished cut-and-paste feature that came with the first iPhone or iPhone 3G? Or would it be like the polished onscreen keyboard that many dislike to this very day? Hey, it sure LOOKS pretty. Hmmm, maybe the onscreen keyboard was part of the great "new direction." Or would it be more like the polished dropped calls users still experience? Oh, I know, it was that polished notification service.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by SharonW View Post
    Ah, I see, now it's not lack of a "new direction" it's "polish." Would that be like the polished cut-and-paste feature that came with the first iPhone or iPhone 3G? Or would it be like the polished onscreen keyboard that many dislike to this very day? Hey, it sure LOOKS pretty. Hmmm, maybe the onscreen keyboard was part of the great "new direction." Or would it be more like the polished dropped calls users still experience? Oh, I know, it was that polished notification service.
    Its not about missing features, its polishing what you have -- specifically incomplete basic apps/functions. I dont care if copy paste is missing, I do care about that the Pre did copy and paste only for EDITABLE text. If you can't add a feature with normal level of functionality, then do as Apple did and just don't add it!
    Last edited by searchable; 06/23/2009 at 09:04 PM.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    I do care about that the Pre did copy and paste only for EDITABLE text. If you can't add a feature with normal level of functionality, then do as Apple did and just don't add it!
    I am convinced Palm wouldn't have left copy/paste partially functional if there was an easy way not to. Seems like a big tease, doesn't it? I mean come on - anyone creating a touchscreen phone in 2008/2009 couldn't possibly not know how big of a joke that was on Apple?

    But I could live with that. Not so much the spotty data service in urban Milwaukee. Pandora works all the way to work on my iPhone, not so much the Pre. I will NOT go back to the EDGE data experience! I swear I have body parts that don't work like they should after all the strange contortions I put myself through just trying to get a Google map to load using 1x data service.

    We shall see. I still have 26 days to return my iPhone 3GS and get another Pre. While sexy and charming, the Pre is also packing a well endowed dose of FAIL in the radio signal department.

    -n8
  18. SharonW's Avatar
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    Its not about missing features, its polishing what you have -- specifically incomplete basic apps/functions. I dont care if copy paste is missing, I do care about that the Pre did copy and paste only for EDITABLE text. If you can't add a feature with normal level of functionality, then do as Apple did and just don't add it!
    Funny, but I'd consider making a call without it being dropped a pretty normal level of functionality on a CELL PHONE, and yet to this very day...iPhone's still dropping calls. And you'd honestly prefer NO cut-and-paste at all to limited cut-and-paste and you would call its absence polished?
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by SharonW View Post
    Funny, but I'd consider making a call without it being dropped a pretty normal level of functionality on a CELL PHONE, and yet to this very day...iPhone's still dropping calls. And you'd honestly prefer NO cut-and-paste at all to limited cut-and-paste and you would call its absence polished?
    You're changing the topic. Dropping calls is a condition of where you live, the cell provider, and the phone. As a 10 year user of Sprint, I am used to everyone insulting Sprint coverage.

    My point is half added features with "gotchas" are a lot more annoying than knowing they are not there. Pre is chock full of this sort of stuff because they wanted to say "oh we have copy paste" but in reality you have a crippled one.

    For example, say you really like a physical keyboard. I bet you wouldn't be happy to find out the Pre had a keyboard, but oops, you can't type any special characters (lol, well you can't in the web browser!) or capital letters? Why? Uh, because we all expect a certain level of functionality.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by searchable View Post
    All those features are FULL of bugs and lack polish. Great, so Facebook is imported because of synergy, but there is NO control on what address get pulled into facebook -- another example of lack of polish. How about the issues related to AIM and Synergy? Again, lack of polish.

    Great ideas, polish is lacking.
    The only thing on this board FULL of anything are you. Oh, and your fanboy buddy Urkel.

    When the Pre does fail, and the iPhone 3GSRTQ comes out and they want another $400 for adding features it should've had years ago, blame it on the fact that there's no competition just like you wanted. But then, since you're in the cult you probably won't care.

    LAME.
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