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  1. sfhub's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    Just to add to this... Palm could, and likely would enable the ability to get first-lock without network if an application that used it actually existed--ie a standalone GPS application... wayfinder, etc...
    Right, you mean like geotagging your pictures, which is already there and also breadcrumb logging, which should be a relatively simple app, where you can overlay your trail over Google Maps after the fact to see where you traveled.
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by jallen3.14 View Post
    In theory, if we were willing to sacrifice some of that 8 gig of storage, Telenav or Garmin or somebody could sell a downloadable nav database that would work anywhere we could get a Sat signal.

    And, I'm assuming that the periodic inability to lock onto a satellite signal will be fixed in an upcoming software patch.

    Joe
    The problem with that is most people would rather just use Telenav, since it's 'free,' and that might prevent 3rd-party companies from wanting to jump in on this GPS wagon, at least in this aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by sfhub View Post
    Right, you mean like geotagging your pictures, which is already there and also breadcrumb logging, which should be a relatively simple app, where you can overlay your trail over Google Maps after the fact to see where you traveled.
    Yup those would be pretty cool. What would be nice if the API was smart enough to only run the GPS chip when needed. On my WM phone, it was either on, or it was off... turning it on and off was a pain, even from a software aspect... The power-state of the phone interfered heavily.
  3. #163  
    I was trying an "experiment" with a DL'd photo's tagging and started checking photos I took with the Pre and form some "strangeness". Don't know if it's been mentioned already.
    I'm using Picasa and Google Earth.

    Photos that were taken in areas with no signal has the tagging off quite a bit.
    I could understand if the all the questionable photos were taken indoors blocking the phone and GPS receiver/radio but some of the photos were taken outdoors.
    Some photos that were taken indoors are totally accurate as I would expect a GPS tagged photo to be, some photos can be traced to the room in my house they were taken.
    Others can't spot the loaction on a boardwalk in Coney Island or a courtyard in the middle of Brooklyn.

    Strange behavior for standalone GPS(?).
  4. DougM38's Avatar
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    #164  
    I currently use Garmin's Mobile XT (app/maps) with a small Freedom BT keychain GPS receiver on my Treo 680. Works great for me. The Freedom GPS locks pretty quickly, cold or warm starting. I've never had to wait much more than ~5 minutes, even after traveling from California to London and switching on the receiver.

    I'm hoping Garmin develops the same app for the Pre, which I plan on getting soon. I currently pre-load topo maps onto my 680 and use it hiking in the Sierra, with no cell or wifi network for miles. I use it in US and European cities when traveling, don't have to bring a separate GPS device, just pre-load the appropriate map sets before I leave. On-the-fly Google/Sprint maps are fine for maybe 80% of my smartphone GPS use, but I still want a Mobile XT-like solution for the 20% where I'm nowhere near a cell or wifi network. And I like the map set and waypoint/feature database loaded on my phone as I can view and search it no matter where I am.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by DougM38 View Post
    I currently use Garmin's Mobile XT (app/maps) with a small Freedom BT keychain GPS receiver on my Treo 680. Works great for me. The Freedom GPS locks pretty quickly, cold or warm starting. I've never had to wait much more than ~5 minutes, even after traveling from California to London and switching on the receiver.

    I'm hoping Garmin develops the same app for the Pre, which I plan on getting soon. I currently pre-load topo maps onto my 680 and use it hiking in the Sierra, with no cell or wifi network for miles. I use it in US and European cities when traveling, don't have to bring a separate GPS device, just pre-load the appropriate map sets before I leave. On-the-fly Google/Sprint maps are fine for maybe 80% of my smartphone GPS use, but I still want a Mobile XT-like solution for the 20% where I'm nowhere near a cell or wifi network. And I like the map set and waypoint/feature database loaded on my phone as I can view and search it no matter where I am.
    5 minutes?? If I had to wait that long--ever, for a GPS lock, I'd shoot myself in the face... it almost becomes worthless at that point. Longer than 30 seconds is almost relatively worthless, because you can determine your location using logic and google maps before the 30-second mark even hits.


    I think a standalone application would be great too, for low/non-signal areas.
    God bless 1-second locks with the Pre, I suppose.
  6. sfhub's Avatar
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    #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    5 minutes?? If I had to wait that long--ever, for a GPS lock, I'd shoot myself in the face... it almost becomes worthless at that point.
    It locks on in a 5-10 seconds for most usages. If it is a warm start like you are describing it can lock in 1-2 seconds.

    Only when you move a great distance (or haven't used the GPS in weeks) and you invalidate the Almanac and Ephemeris caches will it take that long to lock because the bitrate from the satellites is something like 50bps and if there is an error, the whole download needs to restart.

    The Pre would have the same issue when it didn't have cell (or wifi) signal for mobile assistance. The problem is inherent in the satellite bitrate and if that is what Pre is forced to use to get the Almanac and Ephemeris then it will suffer the same fate. That is assuming of course Pre's GPS implementation will allow it to work under those conditions at all.
    Last edited by sfhub; 07/20/2009 at 02:28 PM.
  7. tygern8r's Avatar
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by tygern8r View Post
    Next week I'll be in Canada on an island with no Sprint service. I'll have my Pre and my Garmin standalone. As was mentioned before, I was hoping to snap some pics and have them geotagged. After reading all 8 pages of this post, there still does not seem to be a definitive answer as to whether geotagging the pics will work or not. I plan on testing using the various methods mentioned and post my results when I return week after next.
    Regardless of test method (I tried every one posted, just for fun), I got no GPS lock while on the island. When connected to wifi, it pulled the account holders address as the location. All photos taken with the phone had the last lock as the geotag data. And that's my two cents....
  8. feardunn's Avatar
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    #168  
    take the cartridge out and blow onto the connector pins. then put the cartridge back in but not all the way and push down.
  9. feardunn's Avatar
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    5 minutes?? If I had to wait that long--ever, for a GPS lock, I'd shoot myself in the face... it almost becomes worthless at that point. Longer than 30 seconds is almost relatively worthless, because you can determine your location using logic and google maps before the 30-second mark even hits.


    I think a standalone application would be great too, for low/non-signal areas.
    God bless 1-second locks with the Pre, I suppose.
    good luck getting google maps to load with no network support or wifi. when you shoot yourself please aim for the middle of your face.
  10. Zaki's Avatar
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    #170  
    Currently I am sitting in a bunker basement, phone on airplane mode, and I get a GPS fix no problem. From what I have seen on hardware IC specs, this thing has its own GPS and should work (and does in my case) regardless of airplane mode. Having it on the network just makes it better because then it uses A-GPS mode as well.

    GPS-Protocol: NMEA 0183
    GPS+Antenna: Internal antenna
    Complementary-GPS+Services: Assisted GPS
    Navigation-Chip(set): Qualcomm MSM6801A gpsOne
  11. #171  
    Disclaimer: I am an EE (Electrical Engineer), but I do not work for Palm or Qualcomm, so there is limited information available to me.

    I took a look at the published architecture of the Pre and found that the cellular and GPS functions are controlled by the Qualcomm MSM6801a CPU. This is a custom ARM variant that runs the AMSS firmware and implements cellular voice, data, GPS, Power management, and even battery charging. Because "Airplane Mode" puts the MSM6801a in sleep mode, this also affects the GPS. I do know that if you run a specific command to the MSM6801a, it will initiate wakeup, even if in airplane mode. Without access to the AMSS source code, I cannot do a proper analysis of how the power-management affects the GPS subsystem, but after studying the Qualcomm documentation, they specifically mention that the GPS can be used in "enhanced stand-alone mode".

    For the non-technical: There are 2 main processors in the Pre; one is the main CPU that runs WebOS. This is the TI OMAP3430. The second is the Qualcomm MSM6801a. These are both ARM architecture based. The OMAP is more powerful, but the Qualcomm CPU offloads many tedious functions so the OMAP is free to deal with the user experience.

    I have found that when the Pre is in a no-service area it goes into a low-power search mode to conserve the battery. This mode may very well affect the GPS functionality, but in my tests it was still able to generate accurate location, speed, and heading information in the total absence of CDMA signals. When I used my hack (Patch webOS Radio Power Switch - WebOS Internals) to place the MSM6801a in sleep mode, I lost GPS updates, although it still repeated the last known position. When I fired up Google Maps (via WiFi), it seemed to re-awaken the MSM6801a and generate a position update.

    The power-management is complex on the Pre, and we are on the third update now (version CC1.2 build 334) of the AMSS firmware that was flashed during the WebOS 1.1.0 update. Each version seems to drastically change the way power management works; I suspect Palm (and probably Qualcomm) are working hard to improve the battery life in the Pre.

    Qualcomm calls their GPS implementation "GpsOne" (gpsOneŽ, Qualcomm gpsOneŽ, Location Based Service - QCTConnect.com), and it's obvious to me that the WiFi/Bluetooth have nothing to do with GPS, and cannot be used in any way to assist GPS functionality.

    So, in conclusion; I believe the Pre has a GPS system that can be used in true stand-alone mode, but is possibly hindered by the ongoing hunt for better battery life.

    Case in point: I have noticed that after the Pre has entered low-power mode even once, the TeleNav (Sprint Navigation) application will refuse to find a GPS location most of the time unless you either reboot, or fire up Google Maps first. It seems the Google maps application issues a command to the GPS subsystem to enable a lock, while the TeleNav doesn't. I will do some research sometime soon and see if I can't figure out how to patch TeleNav to prevent this problem.

    Once I determine how Google is doing it, I believe we can use that method in stand-alone applications to generate a lock even without CDMA.

    Hope this helps!
  12. docbeatle's Avatar
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    #172  
    After reading nine pages of maybe, maybe not, pEEf's post proves that doing your homework pays off. Thank you pEEf.
  13. RUB2's Avatar
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    #173  
    Thanks for the detail EE write up. Do you think Pre could be made to work with TomTom software with out the use of the remote WiFi antenna ?
    Or even with the WiFi antenna ? Best regards, RUB - also EE Flash chip R&D.
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by pEEf View Post
    This mode may very well affect the GPS functionality, but in my tests it was still able to generate accurate location, speed, and heading information in the total absence of CDMA signals.
    .....

    Qualcomm calls their GPS implementation "GpsOne" (gpsOneŽ, Qualcomm gpsOneŽ, Location Based Service - QCTConnect.com), and it's obvious to me that the WiFi/Bluetooth have nothing to do with GPS, and cannot be used in any way to assist GPS functionality.

    So, in conclusion; I believe the Pre has a GPS system that can be used in true stand-alone mode, but is possibly hindered by the ongoing hunt for better battery life.

    Case in point: I have noticed that after the Pre has entered low-power mode even once, the TeleNav (Sprint Navigation) application will refuse to find a GPS location most of the time unless you either reboot, or fire up Google Maps first. It seems the Google maps application issues a command to the GPS subsystem to enable a lock, while the TeleNav doesn't. I will do some research sometime soon and see if I can't figure out how to patch TeleNav to prevent this problem.

    Once I determine how Google is doing it, I believe we can use that method in stand-alone applications to generate a lock even without CDMA.

    Hope this helps!
    PEEF thanks. You say you got location even in total absence of CDMA signal. Was that with out wifi as well. because when I tried my wife's pre the device in Europe, even with your hack, the GPS failed.

    I appreciate your reading of qualcomms material but you should also know makers can significantly chage the way gpsone is implemented.
    For example on the last palm designed smartphone immediately proceeding the Pre, the 800w, standalone GPS was permanently and completely disabled by forcing a specific aGPS method: accurate time assistance

    You might want to consider that the google "wakeup" only occurs when connected to more than the birds, so I am wondering about that as proper test.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    If you're using it for cave spelunking, you're doing it all wrong.
    the 95% of the planet that is not under Sprint coverage is not all cave spelunking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    Just to add to this... Palm could, and likely would enable the ability to get first-lock without network if an application that used it actually existed--ie a standalone GPS application... wayfinder, etc..
    Seriously is this your first smartphone? How about tagging your photos or using one of the hundred or more applications that use gps location data but require no network connection and many of which are free.

    "If an application existed?" Lol, where have you been, many do! It isn't 1980 man!
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    What good would it be if it were stand alone? You would not have any maps or applications that could access it without a data connection.
    It could come in handy when you've already downloaded the map data to the phone and while your driving you lose phone data, which has happened to me many times on other phones. When that happens the GPS functions just stop and your lost. Even though you have a clear shot at the sky for satellites. So I could see a use for it....
  17. #177  
    if TomTom would develop an application for the Pre then you could download the map to the internal memory and then use that with no data connection required just stand alone GPS.
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  18. #178  
    With WebOS 1.2 officially out, has anything changed in regards to the standalone GPS issues? I'm not into cave spelunking but I do sometimes travel -- *gasp* -- outside of the Sprint coverage area. Right now I use my Touch Pro with TomTom 7 and it works as a true standalone. I was ready to jump on the Pre but this thread has me somewhat hesitant to do so now just because of this issue.

    I know ScrapMaker dismisses this as being an issue, but I also think he/she must live somewhere that has flawless data coverage and never, ever hits a dead zone.

    On the other hand, with my main concern being mapping and the only mapping options available right now being ones that require data anyway... hmm. I'd just hate to get stuck somewhere with no idea where to go next. I've come to rely on my GPS!

    Hopefully TomTom or someone comes up with software that a) can be loaded onto our Pre's memory and b) wakes up and uses the GPS hardware without a data connection (assuming someone doesn't write a standalone app for this anyway, a la QuickGPS for WinMo).

    /Kevin
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by commonplace View Post
    With WebOS 1.2 officially out, has anything changed in regards to the standalone GPS issues? I'm not into cave spelunking but I do sometimes travel -- *gasp* -- outside of the Sprint coverage area. Right now I use my Touch Pro with TomTom 7 and it works as a true standalone. I was ready to jump on the Pre but this thread has me somewhat hesitant to do so now just because of this issue.

    I know ScrapMaker dismisses this as being an issue, but I also think he/she must live somewhere that has flawless data coverage and never, ever hits a dead zone.

    On the other hand, with my main concern being mapping and the only mapping options available right now being ones that require data anyway... hmm. I'd just hate to get stuck somewhere with no idea where to go next. I've come to rely on my GPS!

    Hopefully TomTom or someone comes up with software that a) can be loaded onto our Pre's memory and b) wakes up and uses the GPS hardware without a data connection (assuming someone doesn't write a standalone app for this anyway, a la QuickGPS for WinMo).

    /Kevin
    I go to places without service all the time... I guess the difference between us is that I don't stay in those places long enough for it to matter. The Pre keeps navigating regardless of signal, but you cannot START navigating with no cellular coverage.
    no 'Thanks'
  20. gbp
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    #180  
    I like this thread.
    I remember similar thread started when 800W arrived.
    No point discussing this thing.
    PALM will not have us a true GPS.
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