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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by sfhub View Post
    This is my theory about what the problem is.

    GPS systems need to download the ephemeris information before they can talk to the GPS satellites in a meaningful manner. Ephemeris is the location information for where in the sky the satellites are. The ephemeris is good for 7 days. Since it takes a minute or more to get the ephemeris information from satellite (that's the main reason why you have long time to first fix on standalone GPS units) many implementations will cache the ephemeris once it is retrieved.
    sfhub, I understand what you're saying, but there are stand-alone GPS devices with no internet or other incoming data connection (such as ones intended for hikers), and they always obtain a location fix, though it may take 5 or 10 minutes if they haven't been used in months and have no idea where they are when you cold start.

    So... it is possible to get a fix with no current ephemeris data. Maybe in the case of the Pre, since it would take so long to get an initial fix that people would think that their GPS was broken, which is why the current firmware doesn't even try? Just a guess.
  2. #122  
    Drove from Eugene to Corvallis to Newport Oregon yesterday.. tested the Gps knowing I'd lose all communicado with cell towers.. the big "X" showed up several times for sometimes 15 minutes or more at a time... Telenav continued to track me still showing distance and time and showing every curve in the road.... BUT if I stopped the "trip" to enter a new destination it wouldn't, couldn't plan the route I chose even if it was a previous destination or trip or even the one I just stopped to enter a new destination.... So bottom line it works.. even when placing it in the background and running other progs. Just make sure you don't stop it if your in a "X" or even Roaming situation.
    And after using it alot of the day yesterday I am very very pleased with telenav... throw it in the 3d view and it's like having tomtom.. sure not quite as robust but very close. Typed in casino showed me all of them within a givin distance.. typed in Taco bell did the same... Even had an abscure dental lab i visited last week.. took me right there. So cool it's all included in "simply everything"!
  3. Sky Nazi's Avatar
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    #123  
    With the Pre in Airplane Mode, do the ##GPS#, and you will in fact see GPS information for position, altitude, velocity and heading. So Airplane mode does not turn off the GPS receiver.

    I am still trying to figure out what measurement the Altitude is in. It is not feet. At 37,000ft it was saying 11,000 something. My guess is it was meters, but i didnt have the conversion at the time.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Nazi View Post
    ...
    I am still trying to figure out what measurement the Altitude is in. It is not feet. At 37,000ft it was saying 11,000 something. My guess is it was meters, but i didnt have the conversion at the time.
    That would be correct (allowing for pressure setting). 37,000 ft = 11,277.6 metres
  5. mcurrens's Avatar
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    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Noktomezo View Post
    Why do you need to know exactly where your plane is, Osama?


    GPS is not allowed to be used on planes per the FAA and FCC.
    Lol, I thought GPS was the latest and greatest in Airline and private aircraft navigation and safety?

    I think you meant GPS use by Passengers...
  6. #126  
    i have not read every post in this, so sorry if this has been said before...
    on the third, i was at a state park where there is no reception or wi-fi at all, i reset my phone using orange-sym-r, then checked my location using ##GPS#, got cordinated that were different (by aprox. 300 feet) than the last ones shown before (i moved about 300 feet during the reset to try to confuse it), i then turned it off, drove about a mile, and once again reset it on, with zero reception, and my cordinates showed up about as expected 1 mile away... the one thing is that you need to wait between one and five minutes, before that you get the error screen that has been talked about on here before, after that time with or without use, signal, or wifi, you can get your gps location with no problems. if you do the soft reset with reception, then try gps using ##GPS#, there is no delay on good location, it works from the moment the phone is on

    I believe this set of tests will be fully repeatable, if you can find a place with no reception but a clear view of the sky

    My OS is version 1.0.4

    Hope this helps clear things up for everyone!
  7. nachome's Avatar
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    #127  
    I have read through this whole thread of arguing what "stand alone" and "AGPS" means, but what about real functionality?
    Last Friday, I drove into the Appalachian Mountains where no carrier has a signal and this was my experience.
    I started in EV using Sprint Nav, playing music loaded on board ( its necessary to plug the thing in thru an aux port for voice guidance since the speaker is so weak). During the time in service I received a few txts and phone calls (which is exactly the multitasking I was wanting from the Pre). The Pre did a great job of minimizing the apps and going to the call (a bit with some delay).
    Once I left cell coverage, I drove another 20 miles with the Pre very accurately plotting my route. Even stopping a few times where the phone was telling me I was off course. It did great until I reached my destination, then tried plotting the shortest route home. That's when the software froze not being able to get map data and I shut it off.
    This is where I have a challenge. I used TomTom 6 with a 680 mod and a BT receiver on my Treo 755p. It always worked great. I doubt TomTom would work with classic and might not interface with the GPS chip of the phone. Having Verizon before which limited BT and a lot of other stuff, I had to mod the rom on my phone for TomTom to even work. I doubt Sprint is going to allow a whole lot to be done to the Pre.

    However, the Pre has a much more open platform than the 755p does ( I'm assuming from what I've read), so anybody want to take a shot at cracking this thing?

    I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before the brain trust can write a software trigger to activate the GPS antenna without cell coverage and find a way to run 3rd party standalone GPS software on this thing.

    BTW... Pre w/ Nav running, music playing, and searching for signal= full battery dead in less than an hour. Bought a car charger from Sprint as soon as I got back into town.
    Thanks to all those who share their brain goo for us to play in.

    PalmIII > Treo600 > Treo650(2) > Treo755p > Pre
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by agbenson View Post
    the one thing is that you need to wait between one and five minutes, before that you get the error screen that has been talked about on here before, after that time with or without use, signal, or wifi, you can get your gps location with no problems.
    So what happens if you get the error screen? Just ignore it, and eventually you'll get a location fix?

    Any ideas why is agbenson's experience seemingly different from others who find that no matter how long they wait they can't get a location fix without a cell signal?

    Just when I thought I understood the capabilities and limitations of the Pre GPS system ... well maybe I don't.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    So what happens if you get the error screen? Just ignore it, and eventually you'll get a location fix?

    Any ideas why is agbenson's experience seemingly different from others who find that no matter how long they wait they can't get a location fix without a cell signal?

    Just when I thought I understood the capabilities and limitations of the Pre GPS system ... well maybe I don't.
    i thought i might cause a bit of action here... i have an answer for your first question and a possible guess at the second.

    get the error, just wait and try again, being sure there is a clear view of the sky, i tried inside my car, no luck, but outside it locked on right away (well after waiting two minutes from the reset that is)

    as for the differrence, there are some who posted peices of what i said, just not all of them together, i think at least some of the problems are from poor gps signal (trees, cars, buildings... etc.)
    the other thing (unfortunately i did not have the chance to test [yet]) is that i have no idea whether or not the apps have access to the gps, maybe they do need the assistance of the network even when what they are doing shouldn't? i did take some pictures with the geo-tag on, so at some point i can see if they were correctly tagged or not, just havent had the time yet

    beyond that, no guesses yet, i'm not really an expert at gps, phones, or anything about how this phone and it's apps are set up, i just know that i attempted a repeatable, at least semi-scientific test.

    If anyone has any specific questions or ideas, i would be more than happy to test them the next time i'm out there.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    sfhub, I understand what you're saying, but there are stand-alone GPS devices with no internet or other incoming data connection (such as ones intended for hikers), and they always obtain a location fix, though it may take 5 or 10 minutes if they haven't been used in months and have no idea where they are when you cold start.

    So... it is possible to get a fix with no current ephemeris data. Maybe in the case of the Pre, since it would take so long to get an initial fix that people would think that their GPS was broken, which is why the current firmware doesn't even try? Just a guess.
    I think you might have hit it right on here, maybe the phone always looks for GPS, so when you turn the phone on it starts looking and after said few minutes, finally gets the lock and then it works perfectly, where if you get staight into an app, it gives up because the pre has no idea where it is...? i wonder if people in the attempt to properly test it are not waiting at all, or retrying after they do the reset and get an error, so they immediately give up? your guess is as good as mine...
  11. #131  
    Sounds like the people who were/are complaining, were doing it just for the sake of complaining. All I am seeing is multiple reports confirming what we already knew. Hopefully a potential Pre owner can sort through this thread to find out that, yes, the Pre does have full, non-assisted GPS, if necessary, just like we knew from the beginning. GpsOne FTW.
  12. NeoteriX's Avatar
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    #132  
    agbenson, your test sounds pretty definitive. Thanks
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    So... it is possible to get a fix with no current ephemeris data.
    no, it's not, but gps satellites transmit the data so receivers can pull it off that (it's slower though).
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    no, it's not, but gps satellites transmit the data so receivers can pull it off that (it's slower though).
    Ah, now that makes more sense.

    It seems like maybe people who didn't get a GPS fix without a cell signal just weren't patient enough, and/or didn't do the test outdoors with a clear view of a large portion of the sky?

    Maybe a few people could post their results here, yea or nay, under those conditions?
  15. #135  
    So what is the best method to test?

    Have wifi off. Put phone in airplane mode. Reset phone. Wait until phone reboots. Turn on GPS. Type ##gps# into the dialer and see if you get a gps location?

    Is this the procedure to get an accurate test or is there some other step to guarantee everyone gets clean results?
  16. feardunn's Avatar
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    #136  
    Tried the ##477# in the Adirondack Mountains with clear line site to the sky and got error.
    geotagging photos was a no go too. no cell or wifi for miles.
    Last edited by feardunn; 07/07/2009 at 02:15 PM. Reason: edit for further info.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    So what is the best method to test?

    Have wifi off. Put phone in airplane mode. Reset phone. Wait until phone reboots. Turn on GPS. Type ##gps# into the dialer and see if you get a gps location?

    Is this the procedure to get an accurate test or is there some other step to guarantee everyone gets clean results?
    Quote Originally Posted by feardunn View Post
    Tried the ##477# in the Adirondack Mountains with clear line site to the sky and got error.
    geotagging photos was a no go too. no cell or wifi for miles.
    feardunn, Did you follow all of bpdamas' steps and wait several minutes for a result.
  18. sfhub's Avatar
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    #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    sfhub, I understand what you're saying, but there are stand-alone GPS devices with no internet or other incoming data connection (such as ones intended for hikers), and they always obtain a location fix, though it may take 5 or 10 minutes if they haven't been used in months and have no idea where they are when you cold start.

    So... it is possible to get a fix with no current ephemeris data. Maybe in the case of the Pre, since it would take so long to get an initial fix that people would think that their GPS was broken, which is why the current firmware doesn't even try? Just a guess.
    Yes, you can obviously download the almanac/ephemeris from the satellites. It just takes a longer time (1-10min, but possibly longer for weak signals), which is why standalone units almost always cache that information so future starts are faster.

    However your second statement that it is possible to get a fix with no almanac/ephemeris data is false. All the GPS systems we are using get the almanac/ephemeris, although some systems have more avenues to download the data than others. Properly designed, they should all have the fallback method of getting the ephemeris from the satellites.

    However caching almanac/ephemeris is a separate implementation dependent optimization. It isn't required for functionality as one could always download the full almanac/ephemeris from the satellites (or whatever means available) everytime the GPS was initiated. It would just take longer than having it cached.

    It may be that the implementations we are seeing here made the assumption that most of the time you would be in an area with tower GPS assistance so they didn't bother trying to cache the almanac/ephemeris.

    BTW I realize from reading one of my past posts that I meant to say almanac when I've been using ephemeris so I started correcting myself in the posts.
    Last edited by sfhub; 07/08/2009 at 02:20 AM.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    Ah, now that makes more sense.

    It seems like maybe people who didn't get a GPS fix without a cell signal just weren't patient enough, and/or didn't do the test outdoors with a clear view of a large portion of the sky?

    Maybe a few people could post their results here, yea or nay, under those conditions?
    Like I said before, I was on the deck (outside) of a boat in the baltic sea for 30 min on 2 occasions testing it. The only time it would show a loc after a reboot was if wifi was on; then it said my location was in the nearest harbor (the boat had internet).

    I suppose its possible it needs more than 30 minutes to get a real unasisted gps lock.
  20. sfhub's Avatar
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    Like I said before, I was on the deck (outside) of a boat in the baltic sea for 30 min on 2 occasions testing it. The only time it would show a loc after a reboot was if wifi was on; then it said my location was in the nearest harbor (the boat had internet).

    I suppose its possible it needs more than 30 minutes to get a real unasisted gps lock.
    I have seen implementations of GPS on phones where it takes 30 minutes plus before they get a GPS fix if there is no cell signal GPS assistance available.

    IMO an implementation of GPS of that type is broken and not very useful, but it would show that the phone is technically standalone GPS capable, just not standalone GPS capable from a practical standpoint.
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