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  1. #21  
    Palm says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Sprint says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Seidio (a reputable replacement battery maker) says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Some engineers on this message board have said the batteries could be different because of heat dissipation and current draw issues.

    And yet their are people here that will tell you that the batteries are identical and they will work fine for you because they have seemingly worked fine for them for all of a week. That's like the guy who tells you it's definitely safe for you to cross a busy street without looking because they've done in twice already.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoSteelers View Post
    That's also part of the question. According to the Advocate they would be able to tell whether you were using a Centro battery, or a Pre battery. Since the Pre has been rooted has anyone stumbled across this in the software?

    It is a good idea to ignore every technical thing a Sprint employee tells you. No, there is no possible way they can do that.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl View Post
    Palm says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Sprint says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Seidio (a reputable replacement battery maker) says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Some engineers on this message board have said the batteries could be different because of heat dissipation and current draw issues.

    And yet their are people here that will tell you that the batteries are identical and they will work fine for you because they have seemingly worked fine for them for all of a week. That's like the guy who tells you it's definitely safe for you to cross a busy street without looking because they've done in twice already.


    If you are scared, you dont have to use them.

    Palm and Seidio, people who want to sell you new accessories, have been unable to back up their statements with facts. In fact, Seidio has seemingly back peddled from saying he personally saw issues to saying that 'someone told him there were issues'.

    http://forums.precentral.net/1674593-post46.html Bull.

    Engineers here are guessing just like we are. Sure, it is possible there is a difference. But.... Logically, why would Palm spend the money on a new design when they have a perfectly good one already? They arnt exactly rolling in money right now, maybe you have heard?
  4. #24  
    Anybody want to dissect these batteries? I've got 5 centro batteries and would be glad to surrender a couple to do so. There are ways to test batteries draw/current abilities.
  5. #25  
    I actually believe that the batteries are very probably the same. However, to me, probably isn't good enough when it comes to an expensive phone that sits in my pocket near my groin!

    Quote Originally Posted by bryanharig View Post


    If you are scared, you dont have to use them.

    Palm and Seidio, people who want to sell you new accessories, have been unable to back up their statements with facts. In fact, Seidio has seemingly back peddled from saying he personally saw issues to saying that 'someone told him there were issues'.

    http://forums.precentral.net/1674593-post46.html Bull.

    Engineers here are guessing just like we are. Sure, it is possible there is a difference. But.... Logically, why would Palm spend the money on a new design when they have a perfectly good one already? They arnt exactly rolling in money right now, maybe you have heard?
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyPre View Post
    Anybody want to dissect these batteries? I've got 5 centro batteries and would be glad to surrender a couple to do so. There are ways to test batteries draw/current abilities.
    We'd really just need a Pre battery to sacrifice. There are a ton of cheap Centro batteries out there but I am using my Pre battery as backup for days when I listen to too much music on the Pre.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by bryanharig View Post
    It is a good idea to ignore every technical thing a Sprint employee tells you. No, there is no possible way they can do that.
    I don't know about that. That information is easily retrievable from todays smart batteries. For example, my computer knows and records the fact that I've got a Sanyo 42T4647 lithium ion battery serial number 2418 in it. (Run command "cat /proc/acpi/battery/*/info" under Linux. Windows users can see it in device manager.)
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl View Post
    I actually believe that the batteries are very probably the same. However, to me, probably isn't good enough when it comes to an expensive phone that sits in my pocket near my groin!
    Well, 12/54 of people who answered my battery poll are using Centro batteries. Extrapolate that out over the number of Pres sold and that is a decent number of Centro battery users. The second one blows up or malfunctions I am sure we will hear about it.

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...cessories.html
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl View Post
    Palm says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Sprint says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Seidio (a reputable replacement battery maker) says don't use Centro batteries because they are different. Some engineers on this message board have said the batteries could be different because of heat dissipation and current draw issues.

    And yet their are people here that will tell you that the batteries are identical and they will work fine for you because they have seemingly worked fine for them for all of a week. That's like the guy who tells you it's definitely safe for you to cross a busy street without looking because they've done in twice already.
    Very sound reasoning. Thx
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyPre View Post
    Anybody want to dissect these batteries? I've got 5 centro batteries and would be glad to surrender a couple to do so. There are ways to test batteries draw/current abilities.
    That's won't necessarilly tell you anything. The difference in the two batteries could be as minor as having used two different metal alloys for the anode. Visually the two metals may be identical but chemically they could have slight variations. The most a desection would reveal is, "they look similar."
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by bryanharig View Post
    Well, 12/54 of people who answered my battery poll are using Centro batteries. Extrapolate that out over the number of Pres sold and that is a decent number of Centro battery users. The second one blows up or malfunctions I am sure we will hear about it.

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...cessories.html
    Most people believe in an afterlife, however, that doesn't mean that there actually is one.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    That's won't necessarilly tell you anything. The difference in the two batteries could be as minor as having used two different metal alloys for the anode. Visually the two metals may be identical but chemically they could have slight variations. The most a desection would reveal is, "they look similar."
    Yes, but how about an electrical "dissection"? We need somebody with a volt/current meter and a box of resistors or a variable load to put these puppies to the test! Ron, I bet you could specify what should be tested. All we know at this point is the capacities and voltages are the same. We have no idea about max current draw at different depths of discharge.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by nmoreman View Post

    That is why I have insurance and will take Pre back with original battery if there is a problem now or later.
    How will you explain it to service when your pre is all charred but the original Pre battery is still pristine?

    I used to fly model helicopters for a few years. Right about the time that Lithium Ion batteries really came on the scene. While two batteries can have an identical physical form and even have the same ratings as far as Voltage and Amps. There is another crucial factor not often written on the battery. The C value and/or max C value. In the heli world a 1150 mah battery drained at 1C would take about 1 hour to go empty. Most of the time I recon our phones are only drawing .1C or less. However if the Pre is capable of drawing a max of say .5C (which seems possible based on how some ppl were draining a battery 2-3 hours when they 1st got their phones) whereas the centros max C would only be say .2C then it's quit possible that the Pre battery can handle that load the the centro battery can't.

    In helicopters, if your Speed controller tried to draw power at a higher C value than your batteries were rated for (usually in the 4-8C area) then you would get a loss of voltage likely resulting in a loss of RPM leading to a crash or unexpected quick landing but no fire from the battery. Of course I think that is because the ESC in the helis would cut the drain rather than try and draw power when the battery couldn't handle it.

    So who wants to test this by putting in a fully charged centro battery. Next turning on all IM clients, setting up their email to check every 5 minutes, and sitting in a low signal area while watching a video? I don't.

    Now on the other side of the coin. Sprint (and maybe palm too?) said "DO NOT REMOVE YOUR BATTERY" Then 3 days later a *2 Sprint rep told me to remove my battery and now they sell backup batteries. I guess it's okay to remove your battery after all? My point here is you definitely can't believe everything sprint tells you.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by bryanharig View Post
    Well, 12/54 of people who answered my battery poll are using Centro batteries. Extrapolate that out over the number of Pres sold and that is a decent number of Centro battery users. The second one blows up or malfunctions I am sure we will hear about it.

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...cessories.html
    Not true. Your poll asked people ask people whether they were using Centro or generic batteries. I myself voted yes because I am using a Seidio battery made for the Pre. So you can't say that your poll supports your argument because that would be twisting the poll's results to suit your argument (as you just did).
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    #35  
    I don't even know if I have one of my Centro batteries in my Pre right now- and niether does my Pre. It operates exactly the same. You can be paranoid if you want- and pay 6x as much for an "official" Pre battery. I bought two Centro batteries and used my savings to buy a Touchstone.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Yes, but how about an electrical "dissection"? We need somebody with a volt/current meter and a box of resistors or a variable load to put these puppies to the test! Ron, I bet you could specify what should be tested. All we know at this point is the capacities and voltages are the same. We have no idea about max current draw at different depths of discharge.
    You could use a RC heli lion battery charger/discharger something like a Triton II to apply a variable discharge on the battery. It would measure the time and total mah drawn from the battery before the voltage dipped below acceptable levels.

    FYI. In case you didn't know that's how they measure the charge left in a battery is by the voltage output. A 1.2Volt battery like a AA may have up to 1.5 or 1.6 Volts when full and about 1.0 when empty. So it's possible that if you were using a Centro battery and pulled too high of a drain that the Pre would just say the battery was about to die or even just shut off as if the battery had died. Of course as soon as the drain stops, the battery would get it's Voltage back and the phone could be turned back on. Kinda like the crashes many people get by sliding their phones shut too hard or bumping their phones. Anyway, I still don't want to be the one to put a Centro battery in my phone and then intentionally overload it.
  17. #37  
    Whether the battery is different or not, Palm should have done one extremely simple thing to make the issue null: change the shape of the battery. Just add one little "notch" to the side of the battery, and make it so the rectangle of the Centro battery wouldn't fit in the Pre because of the notch. There, bam, no question about it, the battery doesn't fit!

    Of course, there would still be a few people going "well it's ALMOST the same shape, and it's the same capacity and made by the same company, and there's nothing functional in that little corner that sticks out that keeps the Centro battery from fitting, and Palm/Sprint/others haven't said FORCEFULLY enough that it doesn't work, so it must work! Just file off the little notch, and it'll fit!" It's never enough for some people.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Yes, but how about an electrical "dissection"? We need somebody with a volt/current meter and a box of resistors or a variable load to put these puppies to the test! Ron, I bet you could specify what should be tested. All we know at this point is the capacities and voltages are the same. We have no idea about max current draw at different depths of discharge.
    Sorry man, I couldn't tell you what needs testing. Coincidentally, I am currently working on a project for the development of a new battery but I'm not a battery physicist or even an EE. I'm an ontologist, specifically I study logical reasoning. I did recently take a week long "battery class" given by the contractor to educate me in some of the fundamentals but I'm no expert.

    My role on my current project is to evaluate the engineering designs of this new battery from the perspective of safety -- this perspective may or may not shed light on the question in this thread.

    Here are some (perhaps relevant) things I've learned:

    A battery consists of three components: anode, cathode and electrolyte. The anode and cathode are submurged in the electrolyte and electrons flow from anode to cathode and vice-versa (one direction for charging, the other for discharging). When we talk of Lithium Ion batteries, the lithium ions are in the electrolyte. It's important to know that there are many substances which can be used as anodes, cathodes and electrolytes -- even for a given type of battery.

    Modern rechargeable batteries usually include some electronics in the casing which perform operations such as load balancing (which makes sure that the cells charge and discharge evenly), thermal sensors (to make sure the battery doesn't overheat) and even pressure sensors ( to make sure the battery isn't leaking).

    Any of these things can be different between the Pre's and Centro's battery. Certainly if the electronics are different it my clear through a visual inspection. However, any chemistry differences may not be detected visually.

    ... I just checked the wikipedia article on "Lithium Ion Battery". It looks pretty detailed and, for the most part, an easy read. I think I'll take a look at it myself for my own project.

    Why would different chemicals be used? Different chemicals produce different performance characteristics. The electrical specs may be the same (Volts, amps, etc.) but some chemicals may for example dissipate heat better, or charge faster or produce greater energy density (more energy in the same size battery).

    I'm still not here saying that Palm isn't trying to just make extra money, this is a distinct possiblity. But there's no evidence to support this claim which means this claim has a status at most of being conjecture. Battery science is a very complex thing. And batteries can be very dangerous. It may very well be that the Pre battery has just been tweeked to dissipate heat better (though I would swear that my Pre battery gets hotter than if I use the centro battery).
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by tarpon6 View Post
    I don't even know if I have one of my Centro batteries in my Pre right now- and niether does my Pre. It operates exactly the same. You can be paranoid if you want- and pay 6x as much for an "official" Pre battery. I bought two Centro batteries and used my savings to buy a Touchstone.
    And yet you'd undoubtedly be the first to run to a lawyer if the battery explodes in your pocket and burns your junk because the Pre was doing something intensive and tried to pull more power than the battery can handle.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by frankos72 View Post
    How will you explain it to service when your pre is all charred but the original Pre battery is still pristine?
    Blowtorch** FTW!

    C'mon people, a little creativity here!







    **for those physically lacking a funny bone in their bodies, that is a joke.
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