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  1. Tedcas's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by drudawg View Post
    I bought two of those batteries from ebay as well as a charger so I would be prepared for Saturday since I have a million and one things to do after I pick it up. I hope some one is brave enough to test it before then so I will know if I will need to fake an illness to get me home before it goes dead.
    I did the same (only one battery, though) I think as long as you purchase an OEM all is good. I really hope it works, I don't won't my junk exploded or repaired.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by glitchy View Post
    All battery cells of a certain chemistry are usually the same voltage (Li-Ion, Alkaline, NiCd, NiMh, etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    That's incorrect. While we think of something like a Li-Ion battery to be made of pur lithium, the fact is that batteries are constructed out of alloys (blends of a base metal and other metals). There are many different chemistries for Li-Ion batteries (as is the case for other types of batteries). These varying chemistries produce different properties in the battery, e.g. how much charge it can hold, what its power dissipation graph looks like (no battery dissipates power in a straight line), etc.

    This is precisely why companies like Duracell and Energizer has a different line of batteries which they market for electronics vs. for toys. If you use the right kind of battery with a device, the battery will actually last longer.
    So what part of my statement is incorrect. Show me a AA Alkaline battery that is not 1.2 volts or a 1 cell Lithium Ion battery for a cell phone that is not 3.7 volts, etc. I never said all batteries were the same, but the voltage per cell for a given chemistry is always (or at least 99.999% of the time). What varies is the charge/discharge rates and the capacity like I previously mentioned. I will have no fear putting a charged Centro battery in my Pre, I might be a little more fearful about plugging in a charger while it's in there though, but I'm not even so sure that would scare me. It's still going to use the same basic algorithm to charge it as it's the same general chemistry. It might just charge at a higher rate, but the AC charger specs will help us there.
  3. #43  
    I would bet the model numbers on the battery are the same.

    Why would palm make a brand new battery when they are already using the Centro battery in other models? (800w)

    This is just a way for them to make more money.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by glitchy View Post
    So what part of my statement is incorrect. Show me a AA Alkaline battery that is not 1.2 volts or a 1 cell Lithium Ion battery for a cell phone that is not 3.7 volts, etc. I never said all batteries were the same, but the voltage per cell for a given chemistry is always (or at least 99.999% of the time). What varies is the charge/discharge rates and the capacity like I previously mentioned. I will have no fear putting a charged Centro battery in my Pre, I might be a little more fearful about plugging in a charger while it's in there though, but I'm not even so sure that would scare me. It's still going to use the same basic algorithm to charge it as it's the same general chemistry. It might just charge at a higher rate, but the AC charger specs will help us there.
    Those are standard sized batteries with specific design requirements. Different manufacturers of standard sized batteries use different materials in their batteries but they must still meet specific size, shape and power requirements. That's why Duracell and Energizer don't last the same amount of time. They're made of different materials with different properties. Remember the old acid batteries that were wrapped in foil and cardboard and used to leek and ruin your toys and radios? It's those acid batteries which determined the size and shape of the batteries we use today.

    Batteries store energy by attracting free electrons to the surface of metal sheets or foil (in standard batteries these sheets are rolled forming the familiar cylinders, but there's nothing in physics that necessitates this shape. The composition of the material determines how many electrons can be packed per unit area of the sheet (i.e. the energy density). With modern battery & material technology, all of our standard batteries can be made quite a bit smaller. However, convention requires that we maintain the current shapes and sizes for them to be of practical use. Since the size, shape and power requirements are already in use and expected by existing battery operated devices.

    Actually, the technology exists to produce batteries with amazingly high energy densities. In the project I'm working on, a single cell is approx the size of a city phone book and has an energy storage capacity equivalent to the battery package in a Toyota Prius. However, currently the cost of producing such batteries is amazingly prohibitive since producing just one of these cells costs far more than a Prius.

    Very rarely would any charging system use an algorithm to control charging. Charging a battery simply consists of applying power to it to move electrons to the surface of the metal sheets.

    As far as safety of using a centro battery: if the batter has the same power output as the Pre battery there's probably not a danger. We really need to also know how much power the Pre draws vs. how much the Centro draws. Most likely there isn't a great difference. However, as a batter discharges (providing power to electronics) it does heat up. The composition of the materials of the battery determines how much heat will be produced given how much the electronics draw. Though the batteries seem to have the same power numbers they may heat at different rates. Similarly the casings of the batteries themselves may be designed to dissipate that heat in different ways (one may do so better than the other). It is for these reasons, I believe, that Palm has two different batteries and does not suggest interchanging them. If soemthing does overheat too much they don't want to have the liability.

    My role on my project for the battery being designed for my organization is to evaluate the battery's design from the point of view of safety. So I've had to learn quite a bit about this stuff.
    Last edited by ronlongo; 06/04/2009 at 07:13 PM.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronlongo View Post
    Those are standard sized batteries with specific design requirements. Different manufacturers of standard sized batteries use different materials in their batteries but they must still meet specific size, shape and power requirements. That's why Duracell and Energizer don't last the same amount of time. They're made of different materials with different properties. Remember the old acid batteries that were wrapped in foil and cardboard and used to leek and ruin your toys and radios? It's those acid batteries which determined the size and shape of the batteries we use today.

    Batteries store energy by attracting free electrons to the surface of metal sheets or foil (in standard batteries these sheets are rolled forming the familiar cylinders, but there's nothing in physics that necessitates this shape. The composition of the material determines how many electrons can be packed per unit area of the sheet (i.e. the energy density). With modern battery & material technology, all of our standard batteries can be made quite a bit smaller. However, convention requires that we maintain the current shapes and sizes for them to be of practical use. Since the size, shape and power requirements are already in use and expected by existing battery operated devices.

    Actually, the technology exists to produce batteries with amazingly high energy densities. In the project I'm working on, a single cell is approx the size of a city phone book and has an energy storage capacity equivalent to the battery package in a Toyota Prius. However, currently the cost of producing such batteries is amazingly prohibitive since producing just one of these cells costs far more than a Prius.

    Very rarely would any charging system use an algorithm to control charging. Charging a battery simply consists of applying power to it to move electrons to the surface of the metal sheets.

    As far as safety of using a centro battery: if the batter has the same power output as the Pre battery there's probably not a danger. We really need to also know how much power the Pre draws vs. how much the Centro draws. Most likely there isn't a great difference. However, as a batter discharges (providing power to electronics) it does heat up. The composition of the materials of the battery determines how much heat will be produced given how much the electronics draw. Though the batteries seem to have the same power numbers they may heat at different rates. Similarly the casings of the batteries themselves may be designed to dissipate that heat in different ways (one may do so better than the other). It is for these reasons, I believe, that Palm has two different batteries and does not suggest interchanging them. If soemthing does overheat too much they don't want to have the liability.

    My role on my project for the battery being designed for my organization is to evaluate the battery's design from the point of view of safety. So I've had to learn quite a bit about this stuff.
    I really don't see how any of this really pertains to this thread as it's really about whether or not the Centro batteries will work in a Pre. I don't think anyone here is going to doubt that you are at least a self proclaimed expert on batteries. Maybe I use terms like 'chemistry' and 'algorithm' loosely, but I haven't read any documentation or even speculation that this phone was also introducing super new battery technology to the phone arena. Therefore, if this is a 1150-1200 mAh Li-Ion battery with one cell and a 3.7 volt rating and the same pin-out and form factor as the Centro, I would really like to see the scientific reason it wouldn't be fully compatible.

    As far as algorithm, from wikipedia:
    "It is formally a type of effective method in which a list of well-defined instructions for completing a task, will when given an initial state, proceed through a well-defined series of successive states, eventually terminating in an end-state."

    The Lithium Polymer batteries I use to make toy cars travel at 50+ MPH, charge following a set of instructions that say charge at 1 x the capacity in amps until 4.2 v per cell is reached, then charge at a decreased amperage holding at the constant 4.2v/cell until current flow is 0. I would call this an algorithm. The NiMh cells I used prior to this charged at a constant amperage until a certain drop in voltage was detected. A lot simpler, but still a form of an algorithm.

    So, I'm with the others thinking it's a sales game and wanting to know why Palm/Sprint says it won't work, not looking for what you know about the future of some super expensive top secret batteries. I don't believe Palm it playing NASA with the battery technology especially with the late scrap and redesign of the phone hardware that took place.
  6. #46  
    This is great! Good arguments all.

    I do believe that 1150mAh at 3.7v does not dissipate (or charge) exactly the same way in every Li-ion battery. But this is probably the weakest part of Palm's statement. We already know the pin-outs are the same (otherwise the Centro battery wouldn't work), so even if there is an electrical difference, it would probably manifest itself with lower battery life using the Centro battery vs. using the Pre battery.

    But the mechanical part of the statement does give me pause. Could they mean thermal properties? The heat from the Touchstone is a significantly different thermal environment than either the 800w or the Centro would experience. But then the Centro battery has to not blow up sitting in a closed car in July in Tucson, AZ too. So maybe it's no big deal.

    This is a great mystery!!
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  7. #47  
    Fact #1 Palm has not said anything about incompatibility only Sprint has. We know how knowledgeable they are.

    Fact#2 Sprint said the exact same thing when the 800w came out. It turned out the batteries were different. The 800w battery had a special stamp on it that would show if the battery had ever gotten wet so that Sprint could deny warranty claims on water tortured phones. Other than that the batteries were exactly the same.

    Fact#3 I will post on this thread Saturday morning letting you all know how well my 800w / Centro batteries are working on my new Pre

    http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-b...ah-same-centro
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    Fact#2 Sprint said the exact same thing when the 800w came out. It turned out the batteries were different. The 800w battery had a special stamp on it that would show if the battery had ever gotten wet so that Sprint could deny warranty claims on water tortured phones. Other than that the batteries were exactly the same.
    I have my spare Centro battery fully charged and ready for Sat morning as well. I really have a hard time believing the same Chinese factory isn't making the Pre batteries that's been making all the Centro and Treo batteries for the last few years and my guess is from the same exact Li-Ion cells. It's kinda like Sprint trying to tell us only their $32 car charger will work, when I suspect it might be made by the same company making BestBuy's RocketFish micro USB charger.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    This is great! Good arguments all.

    I do believe that 1150mAh at 3.7v does not dissipate (or charge) exactly the same way in every Li-ion battery. But this is probably the weakest part of Palm's statement. We already know the pin-outs are the same (otherwise the Centro battery wouldn't work), so even if there is an electrical difference, it would probably manifest itself with lower battery life using the Centro battery vs. using the Pre battery.

    But the mechanical part of the statement does give me pause. Could they mean thermal properties? The heat from the Touchstone is a significantly different thermal environment than either the 800w or the Centro would experience. But then the Centro battery has to not blow up sitting in a closed car in July in Tucson, AZ too. So maybe it's no big deal.

    This is a great mystery!!
    Thermal properties. Yes. That's exactly what I was attempting to describe above. In engineering, heat dissipation is usually treated as a mechanical issue. Further, as I was attempting to state above, batteries of different materials will heat at different rates given the application.

    It may in fact be quite safe to operate the Pre with the centro. However, if the centro battery is a slightly different material (which is the premise I'm going on here) it will have different properties both in how quickly it heats up given a load as well as how easily it dissipates that heat. So it may simply be that if you use a centro battery, the Pre will get a little warmer than if you use the Pre battery.

    In any case. If there is any differece at all in the two composition of the two batteries then, by giving the Pre battery a new part number and stating that the Centro battery should not be used with the Pre, Palm is protecting themselves from liability.
  10. #50  
    ronlongo,
    I'm not discounting your knowledge of battery technology whatsoever. You're obviously very involved in the industry and I'd be really curious what your battery technology is being used for (guess real cars).

    However, I really doubt that heat dissipation is a huge concern in cell phones at this point. We're talking about milli-amps pulled off a battery over many hours. I have 2 cell 4500 mAh Lithium Polymer packs I can pull 100+ amps off and drain in minutes without raising the temps more than a few degrees. At a full capacity charge from empty, it would probably accept 1.150 Amps continuously for 1 hour. Still probably not a lot of heat. I've never noticed my Centro getting hot during a charge and it's probably going to charge at the same rate.

    All things are possible, and you could be right on. However, if I knew you in person I'd put a nice friendly wager that X battery company is making both packs off the same line of cells. Otherwise, Palm would have been foolish not to go for larger capacity. I think they knew they could keep some costs down by using the same cells/form factor for the new phone. Maybe Sprint convinced them to wrap a new label around them with a new part number for more battery sales?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    There could also be a heat issue--one of the reviews mentions that the back becomes rather warm when using the Touchstone.
    This is normal with inductive charging. I have a watch that charges this way and it also gets very warm while charging.
    Systems Analyst by trade, Drummer by desire and Music Lover by birth. A self proclaimed Geek and gadget nut. ii

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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by rc46 View Post
    Fact#3 I will post on this thread Saturday morning letting you all know how well my 800w / Centro batteries are working on my new Pre

    http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-b...ah-same-centro
    Yep, me too. I have three Centro batteries and I am not about to throw them out.

    BTW: my Centro battery gets EXTREMELY hot if I charge from ~10% to 100% so there is nothing new here...
    Palm History: Palm III>IIIc>CLIÉ NR70v>CLIÉ TG50>Tungsten C>Treo 650>Treo 700p>Centro>Pre!! 6/5/09
    Phone History: Way too long

    Sorry Timmy, SERO does not work with the Pre.
    If you have an iTouch click me.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Eguy View Post
    Yep, me too. I have three Centro batteries and I am not about to throw them out.

    BTW: my Centro battery gets EXTREMELY hot if I charge from ~10% to 100% so there is nothing new here...
    Doesn't sound healthy.

    If I had Centro batteries, already, and got a Pre and the Centro batteries got much hotter.. no, EXTREMELY hot, but the Pre batteries didn't, I might have to downgrade my power-user status (or find a way to charge more often) and only use the stock battery.
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
  14. #54  
    I heard from a little birdy that the centro battery may work, but the Pre's battery has built-in chipset for power-saving. Can any of you battery experts make sense of that claim? Is that possible and if so, could this cause 3rd party battery-makers trouble in producing the same chipset on a larger capacity battery?
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    #55  
    d94, the guy who had a Pre early and was answering everyone's questions, already used a Centro battery in it and said it worked fine.

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ml#post1620190
  16. #56  
    i'm not risking non-PRE batteries or non-PRE chargers. there are consequences when you veer from highly sophisticated OEM specs - and we'll end up seeing a bunch of user complaints here as a result.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Robitaille View Post
    I heard from a little birdy that the centro battery may work, but the Pre's battery has built-in chipset for power-saving. Can any of you battery experts make sense of that claim? Is that possible and if so, could this cause 3rd party battery-makers trouble in producing the same chipset on a larger capacity battery?
    Sounds like someone talking out their *** IMHO

    Why would you put that chipset in the battery? The battery is far more space constrained then the phone.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    i'm not risking non-PRE batteries or non-PRE chargers. there are consequences when you veer from highly sophisticated OEM specs - and we'll end up seeing a bunch of user complaints here as a result.
    ...user complaints that will likely get blamed on Palm or Sprint.

    I've already shared how I did something similar, so I'm not claiming that I'm any better than anyone else, but I would like to learn from those mistakes.
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
  19. #59  
    Well I'm happy to report that the Centro batteries work just fine after testing over night last night

    The only minor issue is the plastic taps are very slightly different, but still fit.
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  20. #60  
    yeah, because the stock battery is doing so well in your chargeless Pre at the moment
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko View Post
    i'm not risking non-PRE batteries or non-PRE chargers. there are consequences when you veer from highly sophisticated OEM specs - and we'll end up seeing a bunch of user complaints here as a result.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
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