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  1. Sayo's Avatar
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    #21  
    By gallucci:

    During the planning phases of the event, we assumed we’d get no support from Palm. [..] We didn’t want to set ourselves up for failure in the event that Palm chose not to participate in the event.

    [..] 60 days beyond the point when we announced the community and launched the site Chuq (Palm’s official ambassador) had not reached out to us a single time to introduce himself.

    [Regarding the NDA] I told him we’d only agree to sign a non-disclosure regarding the DATE of the release of the product. NOTHING else.

    [The twitter] “somethin's a brewin' - call scheduled 4 wed w/ @palm_inc & @prprpré$DevCamp$ (@$whurley$, @$dancrumb$ &$amp$; @$giovanni$) $shhhh$....$NDA$'$s$ $involved$ &$amp$; $all$. :-)$12$:$21$ $PM$ $May$ $14th$ $from$ $web$ &#$8220$;

    In response, Pam Deziel, VP, Software Product Management at Palm, calls me and offers to talk about the situation.

    [Pam's email insisting they'll still communicate, but not currently anything requiring an NDA] “As we get clearer about where the mutual leverage exists, we'll revisit, but for the time being, we felt that we had plenty of things to plan and discuss that did not need to be held under NDA. Pam.”

    I want no part of building a brand that has such contempt for the influencers and developers that want to support it from the ground up. Another option, since Apple will be holding WWDC that week, and everyone assumes, introducing the next generation iPhone, would be to hold an iPhoneDevCamp in its place.


    By Rumney

    I never expected Palm to provide assistance, but I hoped they would.

    [..]Instead of embracing the grassroots upswell of interest in WebOS that preDevCamp fostered, Palm seem to be, at best, oblivious and, at worst, disdainful of the enthusiasm and good will engendered by these folk.

    I couldn’t really give two hoots about Palm at this point.


    By Whurley

    As a company, Palm simply doesn’t seem to understand your efforts or respect you.

    Because of my respect for our community members, I can no longer in good conscience help drive an event whose beneficiary doesn’t understand the gift you’re giving them and has allegedly misled you, in my opinion abusing your good faith and willingness to support them in their time of need.

    Palm doesn’t appear to care about much outside of themselves.
    Last edited by Sayo; 05/21/2009 at 08:33 PM.
  2. #22  
    can anybody tell me what's going on and how is it bad?
    sorry, am doing a projec, not much time to read.
  3. Sayo's Avatar
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    #23  
    Oh yeah, if they haven't severed ties completely with palm yet, they have now.

    Simply because palm chose not to let them into their secret clubhouse (as they assumed from the beginning!), these guys became terribly criticizing, even vitriolic.

    Seriously.
  4. #24  
    Honestly, Dan Rumney is the only one with a reasonable response to any of this, as far as I'm concerned.
  5. Sayo's Avatar
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    #25  
    "can anybody tell me what's going on and how is it bad?
    sorry, am doing a projec, not much time to read."
    The very short summary:

    The guys wanted support from Palm for their website but figured they wouldn't get it.

    Palm thought about it, but decided it was best not to currently give them NDA level insider information, but still left the communications gate open.

    These guys then decide to weld that gate shut by BLASTING Palm for their lack of caring, judgment, or knowledge of what's just and right.
  6. Sayo's Avatar
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    #26  
    Honestly, Dan Rumney is the only one with a reasonable response to any of this, as far as I'm concerned.
    I agree, He seemed much more level-headed regarding the situation than the rest.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    It's possible that Palm has it's own developer support program planned. A few months after the iPhone SDK was launched, Apple sent its programmers on a multi-country road show with an invitation-only one-day developers event.
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Well, the way I take the statements is: basically, Apple also refused to support the iPhoneDevCamps, but that was okay because the organizers expected it of Apple. It's not okay that Palm didn't support them, though, because it seemed for awhile like they might.
    I really think one cannot compare iPhone with Pre on this. Palm needs to leverage, it needs to do much more than Apple. It looks like they alienated a key community in making the Pre a success.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayo View Post
    The very short summary:

    The guys wanted support from Palm for their website but figured they wouldn't get it.

    Palm thought about it, but decided it was best not to currently give them NDA level insider information, but still left the communications gate open.

    These guys then decide to weld that gate shut by BLASTING Palm for their lack of caring, judgment, or knowledge of what's just and right.
    You're so full of ****e my guess is your eyes are brown. That is absolutely not what happened. Read the story folks and decide for yourselves.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayo View Post
    The very short summary:

    The guys wanted support from Palm for their website but figured they wouldn't get it.

    Palm thought about it, but decided it was best not to currently give them NDA level insider information, but still left the communications gate open.

    These guys then decide to weld that gate shut by BLASTING Palm for their lack of caring, judgment, or knowledge of what's just and right.
    That is the summery if you didn't read a word they wrote
  10. Sayo's Avatar
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    #30  
    You're so full of ****e my guess is your eyes are brown. That is absolutely not what happened. Read the story folks and decide for yourselves.
    I read all the responses and that's the conclusion I came to. It's all open to interpretation, so you're free to disagree.

    Clearly everyone will have some bias one way or another. I think they went overboard when a couple of them started demonizing the entire company.

    I would personally like to hear Palm's version of events as well.
  11. Sayo's Avatar
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    #31  
    That is the summery if you didn't read a word they wrote
    Sorry, I don't know the guy's personally, don't know what kind of people they are. I'm sure they're great and passionate individuals, but their responses to this situation somewhat seemed childish to me (some more than others, obviously).

    We simply differ in our views, which is perfectly reasonable. I suggest everyone read for themselves and come to their own conclusion.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    You're so full of ****e my guess is your eyes are brown. That is absolutely not what happened. Read the story folks and decide for yourselves.
    You mean read the half of the story and decide for yourselves. Well I did. And this is what stuck out to me in particular - in a letter directed to Palm, Galluci, I believe wrote the following:

    "While you should be actively involved, you seem only capable of distancing yourself from what is undoubtedly the most vital component required for your success; a strong developer community. With each day that we continue the two steps forward three steps back dance that has come to define our interactions this relationship becomes less of an asset, and more of a liability. From a community viewpoint it seems that the right palm doesn't know what the left palm is doing.

    We need to know from your executive leadership where Palm stands once and for all. Please let us know if you are in or out by Monday noon, PDT. We have planned accordingly for either outcome, but a non-response will be taken as an indication that your relationship with our community is over."

    Is this how someone asks for help?

    The tone of this letter reminds me of some of the pedantic whining, and childish demands I get from my kids. They are not asking for Palm's assistance - they are demanding it. And finally, when they blab on twitter about how cool they are in getting in contact with Palm and get called out on it, they take their ball and go home. And what is Galluci's advice to the developers? Make iPhone apps. Right, cause they respect the developer. Please.

    It is really not hard to read between the lines of their heavily biased blogwhine.

    It is too bad Palm decided to pull out - but I think the blame lies squarely on the Garlluci, Whurley et al.
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayo, who blurbed this crap:
    The very short summary:

    The guys wanted support from Palm for their website but figured they wouldn't get it.
    Not true. They were hoping that Palm would support the initiative of 100+ development camps across the globe, but were prepared to go it without them. It has nothing to do with supporting their website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayo, who then totally misrepresented the story by saying this:
    Palm thought about it, but decided it was best not to currently give them NDA level insider information, but still left the communications gate open.
    Palm and PreDevCamp already had a signed NDA, and Palm got pissed because PreDevCamp tweeted about a meeting with Palm that was to occur on May 20 - without violating the NDA, which stated only that once known PreDevCamp could not divulge launch date. Palm then accused PreDevCamp of violating NDA and decided not to support the initiative. Furthermore, this May 20 meeting initiated by Palm was to fill them in on launch date and details. Well golly gee, Palm made announcement of launch on May 19. So Palm had them sign an NDA which was in reality not necessary - they were going to announce before the meeting anyway. Just a tad unethical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayo, who finally pulled this one out of his derriere:
    These guys then decide to weld that gate shut by BLASTING Palm for their lack of caring, judgment, or knowledge of what's just and right.
    Palm had already severed any relationship. Furthermore, PreDevCamp organizers had every right to blast Palm. They were accused of violating NDA which did not happen, they were mislead by Palm into thinking that Palm was going to work with them (they were told specifically that a meeting on May 20 would finalize release data planning when in fact Palm had planned to release on May 19 all along), and the last correspondence on the subject via email from Palm to PreDevCamp was also cc:ed to Palm's legal counsel.

    That, my friends (to quote that brilliant campaigner John McCain), is the real story. Sayo got not one single point correct. Let me guess, used car salesman?
  14. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    You're so full of ****e my guess is your eyes are brown. That is absolutely not what happened. Read the story folks and decide for yourselves.
    I'm actually a little offended by the "your eyes are brown" comment. What does that have to do with anything? Do you have something against people with brown eyes?

    And for the sake of staying on topic, this is disappointing news. I don't think Palm necessarily handled it right, but I definitely think their responses were a little much. Understandably perhaps, but a little much.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    You're so full of ****e my guess is your eyes are brown. That is absolutely not what happened. Read the story folks and decide for yourselves.
    Interesting. My eyes are brown (literally).

    I came to the same conclusion as Sayo did. Those guys came of as very childish and unprofessional in my humble opinion. How do you start something assuming you won't get help from a particular entity and then quit because you don't get help from said entity? That by itself shows immaturity. To turn around air your laundry like they did is just downright unprofessional.
  16. #36  
    OK, so I've been perusing this and I kinda see what is going on, but what is the end result to we Pre users? Less apps being built? Just trying to understand.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    Not true. They were hoping that Palm would support the initiative of 100+ development camps across the globe, but were prepared to go it without them. It has nothing to do with supporting their website.
    Actually, it wasn't about hope. They went as far as assuming they would NOT get participation from Palm.

    Giovanni wrote:
    During the planning phases of the event we agreed that the community would live and thrive with or without Palm, Inc.’s support or participation. To that end, we assumed we’d get no support from Palm. We didn’t want to set ourselves up for failure in the event that Palm chose not to participate in the event.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    Palm and PreDevCamp already had a signed NDA, and Palm got pissed because PreDevCamp tweeted about a meeting with Palm that was to occur on May 20 - without violating the NDA, which stated only that once known PreDevCamp could not divulge launch date.
    Did you get a copy of the NDA? No? This is speculation then, not fact.

    According to the post:
    ...I told him we’d only agree to sign a non-disclosure regarding the DATE of the release of the product. Nothing else. We would not agree to any other terms unless it could be evidenced to us that said information was not already in the public and it would cause damage to their plans to successfully launch the product.

    Great. Aaron agreed and sent over the NDA. General stuff, vague and mutual....


    For me this says they were not planning on signing anything other than restriction on release date info. However, the part in bold says the NDA was vague and mutual. That's all. They never actually specified WHAT was signed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    Palm then accused PreDevCamp of violating NDA and decided not to support the initiative. Furthermore, this May 20 meeting initiated by Palm was to fill them in on launch date and details. Well golly gee, Palm made announcement of launch on May 19. So Palm had them sign an NDA which was in reality not necessary - they were going to announce before the meeting anyway. Just a tad unethical.
    Again, you don't know this for sure. None of us know if May 19th was always the date they were planning to announce the release date.


    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    Palm had already severed any relationship. Furthermore, PreDevCamp organizers had every right to blast Palm.
    Sure, they can blast them; and blast they did. However, I think I read somewhere that professionals should not burn bridges. Maybe that was in the grown-up section of the library.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by furreverdad View Post
    OK, so I've been perusing this and I kinda see what is going on, but what is the end result to we Pre users? Less apps being built? Just trying to understand.
    The apps will come.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by jcunwired View Post
    Palm and PreDevCamp already had a signed NDA, and Palm got pissed because PreDevCamp tweeted about a meeting with Palm that was to occur on May 20 - without violating the NDA, which stated only that once known PreDevCamp could not divulge launch date.
    Palm says they violated the NDA. None of them deny it. You're the only one who says that they didn't violate the NDA. You're also the only person who makes a claim about the scope of the NDA actually signed by these guys.

    Palm then accused PreDevCamp of violating NDA and decided not to support the initiative.
    It's hard to tell without the full context, but from the quote of Pam's email, it sounds like Palm wants to continue talking without disclosing confidential information to these guys:

    “As we get clearer about where the mutual leverage exists, we'll revisit, but for the time being, we felt that we had plenty of things to plan and discuss that did not need to be held under NDA.”


    Furthermore, this May 20 meeting initiated by Palm was to fill them in on launch date and details. Well golly gee, Palm made announcement of launch on May 19. So Palm had them sign an NDA which was in reality not necessary - they were going to announce before the meeting anyway. Just a tad unethical.
    The NDA would cover all their discussions for the period of their relationship, not just one meeting.

    Palm had already severed any relationship. Furthermore, PreDevCamp organizers had every right to blast Palm. They were accused of violating NDA which did not happen, they were mislead by Palm into thinking that Palm was going to work with them (they were told specifically that a meeting on May 20 would finalize release data planning when in fact Palm had planned to release on May 19 all along), and the last correspondence on the subject via email from Palm to PreDevCamp was also cc:ed to Palm's legal counsel.

    That, my friends (to quote that brilliant campaigner John McCain), is the real story. Sayo got not one single point correct. Let me guess, used car salesman?
    Again, it's difficult to tell without the full context, but it appears to me that Gallucci severed the relationship. As for cc'ing the General Counsel being a “veiled threat of legal action”, that's just retarded.


    Also, I read the twitter conversations from April 15. whurley was pretty obnoxious.
  20. #40  
    First off, my eyes are so brown they are almost black. If you guys can't get the joke, then that's your problem.

    Second, Sayo is certainly justified in coming to his own conclusion (as you are), but his "very short summary" was totally and completely off the mark, so I corrected it.

    Finally, sir mycroft gets it wrong too with "Is this how someone asks for help?". They never asked for help. As a community organizer it would be great to have Palm say "this is a great event and we love what these guys are doing", and I suspect that is what they were going for - remember, they never intended on Palm's help from the beginning. Their first contact with Palm was to ask what they thought of the event. I would have done the same if I were volunteering to lead the organization initiatives that would benefit a large corporation. After several meetings they were still nowhere with Palm after being promised support, and the clock is ticking. And after the way it all went down, I think they were entirely justified to blast Palm with both barrels.

    Palm could use the help. All the help they can get. MY conclusion is that they bungled this bigtime, when a simple statement would have helped them and the development camp movement tremendously. But clearly Palm thinks they're Apple, and are playing the game just like Apple did/does, right down to the wire.

    That's my conclusion, take it or leave it.
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