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  1. gbp
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       #81  
    beanis
    its not a PALM OS , its WinMo 6.1. Its about 10 years since the early Windows PocketPC PDA days.
    I guess we know the real LAG if PALM gets out a production piece to the engadget and gizmodo guys.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    NOOOOOOOO I want it but I want it snappy
    I want the Pre too, but I want it to have a 19" 1080p screen. I don't see why it can't. Maybe we should form an "I want" support group?
  3. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Wow,
    Talk about attention spans and patience.
    Patient is a virtue, sure , then why bother using the emails on mobile phones or why twitter or why watch streaming media on the go ?

    Go postal and be patient for the messages to be delivered.
    Go home to turn on that old CRT TV ( not the LCD) for watching news of sports.

    Sorry, I am not being sarcastic
    And not even good sarcastic, or with a point.

    We're talking about 5 to 8 seconds here.

    Five to Eight seconds.

    The guy was acting like he had to wait for freaking Windows 98 to boot up on a Celeron 166 with 32 megs of RAM in his previous post. Talking about how its a deal breaker for him because its not like his desktop where he can switch over and play a game during the load time.

    Five to Eight seconds.

    I agree with you that folks need to be patient, but you are missing the point , which is to say they have this great phone with super duper processor of the desktop computing magnitude, but the apps lag in a serious demo in front of the whole world.
    Where's the lag? I didn't see it. I saw faster load times than I see with WinMo, and load time on par with what I see with the iPhone after its had years to tweak its OS and is ALSO running on top of the line software. This is on a beta unit, with beta software.

    I saw a few seconds to load up a program. That's not LAG, that's loading. If it was somewhere closer to 15 to 20 seconds to load up every program, I'd agree with you. That's not the case.

    It seems like you're expecting instant "click and boom its there immedietely" type situations. Sorry, that's your fault for getting your expectations up to an unrealistic point, not Palm's.

    Then you go back to their website and the same PANDORA thing is fast.
    Really? You think a minute long clip, that's OBVIOUSLY not an ACTUAL Pre, wasn't made to be optimized for marketing? That's what you're basing this off of? And you think THAT'S going to be the deal breaker for people?

    Yeah, it was definitly a deal breaker for the millions of iPhone users. I mean, they sold nothing after their vidoes.



    Either someone is sleeping at the wheel of their marketing department for putting up a contrasting video or the these two phones have different versions of software.
    One is a live presentation and the other is a software mockup rendering.

    Seriously, some people can't be pleased. They don't show the phone actually being used, people get pissed. They don't put out some kind of ad videos, people get pissed. They actually show people the phone and put out successful ad videos and people get pissed. Jesus.
    Last edited by Zyphlin; 04/03/2009 at 12:35 PM.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    mikah,
    I hope it is BETA. Agreed that engadget and gizmodo didn't mention the lag thing, but there is a significant difference between the PALM video and the demo.

    Again I hope its a beta.
    Yes I believe it is! There is a video on the net somewhere from Ctia where one of the Demo'ers did say the apps were still in the BETA stage.. so ya
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    mikah,
    I hope it is BETA. Agreed that engadget and gizmodo didn't mention the lag thing, but there is a significant difference between the PALM video and the demo.

    Again I hope its a beta.
    Of course there's a difference between the video and the beta. There will always be a difference between the video and the final production units, too. Same as it is with virtually every other ad for an electronic device in existence. Screen images are simulated. Loading times are non-existent. Nobody's iPhone works as the iPhone in the commercials does. They don't set up a camera and film screens displaying these images.

    I only stress the "beta" part, not because the Pre is in bad shape (it clearly isn't and is making great impressions on virtually everyone who sees it in person), but because - again - this is the FLOOR of Palm Pre speed and development. So here, at its slowest, most non-optimized point, it is still roughly on par with the iPhone in terms of responsiveness. And being the floor, it can only go upward...as in toward the ceiling. it will only be optimized and tweaked further going forward. The apps will only get better.

    In the meantime, it is sporting a user experience that has all of the leading tech reviewers in awe. I imagine I will agree with them when I finally get my hands on one. Most of the readers will too.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wait, so are you telling us you're so ADD or impatient that if something takes 6 seconds to load up you need to be able to have another monitor open to play a game for that 6 seconds...probably 2 seconds of which is taken up switching screens?

    If these were 15, 20 second wait times I'd understand your point. They're not. For the most part its all under 10 seconds. The Sprint TV app loaded probably 3 times as fast as it takes for it to load on my Touch Diamond. Ii would have to seriously question anyones patience if they don't have the attention span to wait 5 seconds for something to open without doing something else during that time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Five to Eight seconds.

    The guy was acting like he had to wait for freaking Windows 98 to boot up on a Celeron 166 with 32 megs of RAM in his previous post. Talking about how its a deal breaker for him because its not like his desktop where he can switch over and play a game during the load time.

    Five to Eight seconds.

    ....

    I saw a few seconds to load up a program. That's not LAG, that's loading. If it was somewhere closer to 15 to 20 seconds to load up every program, I'd agree with you. That's not the case.

    It seems like you're expecting instant "click and boom its there immedietely" type situations. Sorry, that's your fault for getting your expectations up to an unrealistic point, not Palm's.

    ....

    They actually show people the phone and put out successful ad videos and people get pissed. Jesus.
    From a fellow whose bread and butter is usability, talking about stuff that Matias should be well aware of, here're bits from Jakob Nielsen's "Response Times: The Three Important Limits" (http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html):

    "The basic advice regarding response times has been about the same for thirty years [Miller 1968; Card et al. 1991]".

    The important one for me is that "1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted, even though the user will notice the delay."

    He also mentions that "10 seconds is about the limit for keeping the user's attention focused on the dialogue. For longer delays, users will want to perform other tasks while waiting for the computer to finish..."

    ...Maybe I *am* a little ADD. ...or maybe I simply prefer for my flow of thought to stay uninterrupted.

    As far as it being loading time rather than LAG, call it what you will, it's time that interrupts your task, time before you can keep doing what you wanted to do. I'm just biased towards making the computer conform to me as a user rather than me conforming to the computer.

    As far as being pissed...nope...I think I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    As for whether this is a truly a big issue--I know that I hate waiting for my device. It may not be a dealbreaker for me, balanced against the rest of the Pre's positives, but it'll be a big disappointment going in.
    Zyphlin, Mikah, and Turtle all make great points with regard to this being the base from which the Pre's response times will improve. And that's certainly something for which I'll hope.
    Last edited by Shadowhawk; 04/03/2009 at 02:11 PM.
  7. Zyphlin's Avatar
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    #87  
    The issue is you're seeming to be wanting the holy grail, something no computer, no handheld device, has delivered. A holy grail that frankly is unrealistic to actually EXPECT...especially for those that are saying this is a "Deal breaker" (I know you say its not).

    Find me a mobile OS, or even a desktop OS, that opens up every program instantly, without any load time.
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    #88  
    If the splashscreens came up quicker it wouldn't bother me. The thing I find annoying is when somebody touches the screen and nothing happens and they touch it again, but the app already started to load and they accidentally started some other action. I think the time is reasonable, but there needs to be quicker feedback that an action has been initiated.
  9. #89  
    The Goat will chime in on this one real quick... Because I am lame and chime in on everything despite rarely ever being qualified to speak about many subjects.

    The lag is minimal...

    You want REAL lag... Try using a Blackberry Storm. Or try cruising the web with my Curve. Then we'll talk about lag.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by dave75 View Post
    If the splashscreens came up quicker it wouldn't bother me. The thing I find annoying is when somebody touches the screen and nothing happens and they touch it again, but the app already started to load and they accidentally started some other action. I think the time is reasonable, but there needs to be quicker feedback that an action has been initiated.
    Now this is a reasonable critique.
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    #91  
    Indeed Dave. This is one of the things I said earlier in this thread on the iPhone.

    The iPhone uses imagery and animations to "hide" its load time. The program opening animations along with good use of splash screens give the impression of one flowing simple load time when in reality the time to actually get to the useable portion of the program from the point of click is the same. It uses imagery and animation to trick the mind and basically create an optical illusion of speed.

    Palm could make use of doing something like this, possibly using their "Card comes up from the bottom" animation happen quickly as the program loads onto said background.
  12. #92  
    They could throw up a blank white page as soon as any app launch initiates. Or a pretty spinning circle. But who really cares? The end result is the same. You'll get to the program when it's ready. I don't need optical illusions to be happy with my phone.
    Pretty loading screens are just to trick ADD people/apple users.

    On another note, you people need to understand that Palm and Sprint will be saying everything in the phone is unfinished or in beta until approximately 30 seconds before it goes on sale. You better understand that, before we all have to put up with whining complaining threads at launch about speed and lag. Get it all out here.
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Folks,
    Me thinks the invoking of the application is not crisp. Its was almost WinMo like , slo000000w
    Dude, please don't bash WinMo if you haven't actually used it. I've been using WinMo forever and it is pretty friggin' fast, especially with all the trillion different tweaks you can apply to it via third-party apps and registry edits.
  14. gbp
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       #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post

    It seems like you're expecting instant "click and boom its there immedietely" type situations. Sorry, that's your fault for getting your expectations up to an unrealistic point, not Palm's.

    Seriously, some people can't be pleased. They don't show the phone actually being used, people get pissed. They don't put out some kind of ad videos, people get pissed. They actually show people the phone and put out successful ad videos and people get pissed. Jesus.
    , hey nothing wrong with building expectations , specially an iconic company with the help of two top guns from their rival going all out in building this phone.

    Faster is always better. The issue is with the definition of "FASTER".
    It differs from person to person. For some going 5 miles above speed limit is fast , for others its doing 20 above the limit.

    I agree with you on the 5-8 seconds thing , but you can't blame the people for expectations. Getting pissed of is where the the issue will be.
    If PALM can't afford any such bad talk after the launch.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The issue is you're seeming to be wanting the holy grail, something no computer, no handheld device, has delivered. A holy grail that frankly is unrealistic to actually EXPECT...especially for those that are saying this is a "Deal breaker" (I know you say its not).

    Find me a mobile OS, or even a desktop OS, that opens up every program instantly, without any load time.
    Leaving aside the holy grail as a goal, how 'bout if I bottom-line it this way?...

    Coming from Palm 755p, I plan to upgrade to the Pre. I would very much like for it to be an actual upgrade in my day to day experience. In addition to it being prettier with more powerful hardware with more capabilities, etc., it would feel like more of a thorough upgrade if, task for task, say, it took less time and flowed more seamlessly than with my 755p.

    Just as you might hope that any phone to which you might upgrade might have more memory or be able to handle a bigger sd/mini-sd/micro-sd card, I'm hoping that I'll be able to do my current tasks more quickly.

    Is that truly unreasonable? People beat on Windows every time they do a new version for the new version being slower than the previous one...and MS then works to speed them up after release. People expect upgrades to be better, and one of the aspects of that "better" is "faster". I'm quite certain that that's not just me.

    Of course, response times aren't the whole story in this regard, but it's one component of the story that we can tangibly, at this moment, see and weigh. And that's all we have to go on right now.
  16. gbp
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       #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The issue is you're seeming to be wanting the holy grail, something no computer, no handheld device, has delivered. A holy grail that frankly is unrealistic to actually EXPECT...especially for those that are saying this is a "Deal breaker" (I know you say its not).

    Find me a mobile OS, or even a desktop OS, that opens up every program instantly, without any load time.
    I hope the day won't be long. Look at the pace the mobile devices come along.
  17. gbp
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       #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The issue is you're seeming to be wanting the holy grail, something no computer, no handheld device, has delivered. A holy grail that frankly is unrealistic to actually EXPECT...especially for those that are saying this is a "Deal breaker" (I know you say its not).

    Find me a mobile OS, or even a desktop OS, that opens up every program instantly, without any load time.
    OH, BTW, the DELL E series QUAD Core 2.6 Gig processors with 4 gig of RAM and 10000 RPM drive does open programs ( spreadsheets , word documents , videos , JPEGs ) in less than 3 seconds time.
  18. gbp
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       #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by dave75 View Post
    If the splashscreens came up quicker it wouldn't bother me. The thing I find annoying is when somebody touches the screen and nothing happens and they touch it again, but the app already started to load and they accidentally started some other action. I think the time is reasonable, but there needs to be quicker feedback that an action has been initiated.
    Couldn't agree more, I do that all the time on TOUCH ( WinMo). Then end up opening unwanted app, then open the task manager to kill a couple.
    This happens three to four times a day.What a waste of time.
  19. gbp
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       #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Indeed Dave. This is one of the things I said earlier in this thread on the iPhone.

    The iPhone uses imagery and animations to "hide" its load time. The program opening animations along with good use of splash screens give the impression of one flowing simple load time when in reality the time to actually get to the useable portion of the program from the point of click is the same. It uses imagery and animation to trick the mind and basically create an optical illusion of speed.

    Palm could make use of doing something like this, possibly using their "Card comes up from the bottom" animation happen quickly as the program loads onto said background.
    I have to pay attention to the iPhone, great observation.

    Also I noticed iPhone after running about 5 plus apps seemed slow.
  20. gbp
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       #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    They could throw up a blank white page as soon as any app launch initiates. Or a pretty spinning circle. But who really cares? The end result is the same. You'll get to the program when it's ready. I don't need optical illusions to be happy with my phone.
    Pretty loading screens are just to trick ADD people/apple users.

    On another note, you people need to understand that Palm and Sprint will be saying everything in the phone is unfinished or in beta until approximately 30 seconds before it goes on sale. You better understand that, before we all have to put up with whining complaining threads at launch about speed and lag. Get it all out here.
    I hope your predictions be wrong. I will be disappointed if such thing happens. I do not want another Instinct episode.
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