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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by turtle3 View Post
    We are criticizing Beta versions of Gen 1.0 apps for these services in a new OS environment. For arguments sake, lets use Windows as an analogy... Early Win apps took a long time to load - a LONG time. Load times improved as hardware dramatically improved, but this just moved the bloated code faster - it wasn't more efficient, but it DID make people "happier". Now, coders are getting "smarter". Take Google Chrome for example. I've loaded it on some friends' ancient laptops (600mhz ; 128MB ; etc.) and Chrome still loads FAST. In my much more capable laptop, Chrome load time is seriously under 1s. It's because the code for the app is lite and efficient.

    Being fair, Pandora, Fandango, SprintTV, and even Google Maps probably cranked these apps out in a few weeks at best. So, they're probably "conversions" of their apps from other sources (HTML or iPhone app style). Maybe they're trimmed down to the bare minimum already, but my guess is they're not....at least not yet. I haven't seen a "stopwatch" time yet of how long it takes to launch the native programs - dialer, calendar, messenger, email, etc. How do those compare to the iPhone WinMo devices? What about launch times once the app is already a card (i.e. switching between apps)?

    We have built our expectations to astronomical levels without even having touched the device. Lets not be too critical too soon. Let the developers get their claws in the SDK and figure out how to write faster, cleaner, more efficient code - then you'll see those "lag" times improve.
    You make a great point about code optimization and the speed with which those 3rd party apps may have been put together. They may indeed get faster, and Chrome is a good example.

    But, yah--according to the various non-Palm videos of demos from CES and this CTIA one--the native apps aren't lightning quick either, certainly not at the level of their Meet Pre videos...

    OK...I've obsessed enough about this.

    I do hope that optimization will bring their reality to match their advertising...but it seems to me like they're running out of time, esp. if this is close to a final build.

    ...I think I'm done. I figure ya care or ya don't, and it's not like any of this is causing the Pre to get here faster.

    Thanks for listening.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    But the usage scenarios are completely different.

    When I'm at my desk, I can probably afford to wait for FF to open, heck, I'll open Chrome or check my Outlook or do something else in one of the other windows I already have open. But with my two monitors, I can do that. Also, even in a single browser window, if a page is taking more time to load than I'm willing to wait, I can open a new tab and go on.

    As a mobile device which I'll be using on the go, out and about, and for quick information, say, looking up a contact so I can tell someone on the phone a number, the lag times are much more disruptive. Even if it's in my navigator's hands and I need them to look up an address or directions in google maps...

    ...and for less pressing scenarios...remember, I don't have another monitor I can go play in while the app loads itself. Maybe I have another card already open that I can go do something with...but that misses the point of being an ubiquitously available source of quick info.

    I'm not saying that it'd be easy or inexpensive. I'm just saying, look--it'd be nice if it were fast enough not to have to wait much for it to do stuff. The fact that we'll probably have to wait as long as the demos show is something of a disappointing step back. And their video only underscores how much the reality will undershoot what we could have hoped for.
    I think this gets to the heart of it. I guess it is shocking to see performance slower than other handsets in its class and this is underlined and empathized by the severe difference in launch speed on the advertisements on palms site.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by turtle3 View Post
    We have built our expectations to astronomical levels without even having touched the device. Lets not be too critical too soon. Let the developers get their claws in the SDK and figure out how to write faster, cleaner, more efficient code - then you'll see those "lag" times improve.
    Actually the expectations come from using other devices in the same class and from Palms advertising n its site.

    They are not astronomical but actually quite pedestrian.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    I think this gets to the heart of it. I guess it is shocking to see performance slower than other handsets in its class and this is underlined and empathized by the severe difference in launch speed on the advertisements on palms site.
    do we forget that the iPhone did the same thing in their commercials, u cant compare a demo video with what to expect in real life and even if it does lag, what i'm seeing is not a dealbreaker for me at least, so you either deal with it or just dont spend your money on it.
  5. #65  
    I guess I don't mind lag when i comes to those types of applications since I don't use them all that often.
    If the phone and calendar apps lagged, or the messaging app lagged (like another phone i won't mention), then I might be annoyed......
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    I'm not saying that it'd be easy or inexpensive. I'm just saying, look--it'd be nice if it were fast enough not to have to wait much for it to do stuff. The fact that we'll probably have to wait as long as the demos show is something of a disappointing step back. And their video only underscores how much the reality will undershoot what we could have hoped for.

    Wait, so are you telling us you're so ADD or impatient that if something takes 6 seconds to load up you need to be able to have another monitor open to play a game for that 6 seconds...probably 2 seconds of which is taken up switching screens?

    If these were 15, 20 second wait times I'd understand your point. They're not. For the most part its all under 10 seconds. The Sprint TV app loaded probably 3 times as fast as it takes for it to load on my Touch Diamond. Ii would have to seriously question anyones patience if they don't have the attention span to wait 5 seconds for something to open without doing something else during that time.

    I think Mikah and Turtle hit the thing out of the park.

    The Pre is no slower than the iPhone when loading things, and that's with a beta phone and beta software on a Gen 1 release of the OS.
  7. #67  
    I remember the lag on the first iphone and even now with the current iphone 3g. It's still unacceptable but what do you do?

    With the Pre, a faster processor and webOS made just for mobile devices was all the rage. So i am kind of surprised at the amount of lag. I'll just have to hope things will get optimized much more and the updates come along.

    Obviously if you leave cards open, then this might help but really just need to play with the device to know.
  8. gbp
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       #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Actually the expectations come from using other devices in the same class and from Palms advertising n its site.

    They are not astronomical but actually quite pedestrian.
    I agree with you , the expectations are based on devices in the same class ( rather I say iPhone).

    The difference in response times between PALM site and the web show shows that something is not adding up. May be its a BETA version of the APPS.
  9. gbp
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       #69  
    All right
    for comparison purposes ,

    I was able to invoke SPRINT TV on my 800w in 7 seconds.
    Then choose the SPRINT TV option 2 seconds
    Then choose CNN == > 3 seconds
    Then choose CNN Live ==> 8 seconds.

    And I have a boatload of BLOATWARE .

    Skype
    IRIS Browser
    OPERA Mobile
    OPERA Mini
    SPRINT JAVA TITAN PLATFORM
    MVoice
    Weather bug
    TCM Player
    FLASH support
    Skyfire
    Google Maps
    G Alarm

    Not to mention three emails of which one is OUTLOOK.

    And this thing has a tiny 300 some MHz processor.

    When none of these APPS were installed , this thing ran circles ( for streaming media) around few handsets which include, Touch Original, Touch Pro, Touch Diamond.

    Also the common applications like address book, chat, dialpad were so quick that it was almost iPhoneque.

    My two cents , PALM probably tweaking this to be the most efficient in using battery , simple , faster and bug free.
  10. gbp
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       #70  
    OTOH
    I noticed this lag in the previous videos when invoking the browser app. I am hoping the browser will not have this symptom.
    If I see any more lag than 2-3 seconds , I am sure it will grab attention.

    Shadowhawk,
    yes , its annoying to wait forever for the apps to load when you are on the phone and want to quickly search tell a phone number or address or check google or something.

    Unfortunately , folks are accustomed to the LAG. I blame it entirely on Microsoft for lowering expectations in the desktop PC world.
  11. gbp
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       #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wait, so are you telling us you're so ADD or impatient that if something takes 6 seconds to load up you need to be able to have another monitor open to play a game for that 6 seconds...probably 2 seconds of which is taken up switching screens?

    If these were 15, 20 second wait times I'd understand your point. They're not. For the most part its all under 10 seconds. The Sprint TV app loaded probably 3 times as fast as it takes for it to load on my Touch Diamond. Ii would have to seriously question anyones patience if they don't have the attention span to wait 5 seconds for something to open without doing something else during that time.

    I think Mikah and Turtle hit the thing out of the park.

    The Pre is no slower than the iPhone when loading things, and that's with a beta phone and beta software on a Gen 1 release of the OS.
    Wow,
    Talk about attention spans and patience.
    Patient is a virtue, sure , then why bother using the emails on mobile phones or why twitter or why watch streaming media on the go ?

    Go postal and be patient for the messages to be delivered.
    Go home to turn on that old CRT TV ( not the LCD) for watching news of sports.

    Sorry, I am not being sarcastic, I agree with you that folks need to be patient, but you are missing the point , which is to say they have this great phone with super duper processor of the desktop computing magnitude, but the apps lag in a serious demo in front of the whole world.
    Then you go back to their website and the same PANDORA thing is fast.

    Either someone is sleeping at the wheel of their marketing department for putting up a contrasting video or the these two phones have different versions of software.
  12. gbp
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       #72  
    Below is an observation of a tech journalist on ANDROID.

    "Amazingly robust operating system with little or no lag time. It makes Windows Mobile feel like a retiree; even the iPhone feels like a middle-aged person compared to Android OS. "

    Notice the key words little or no lag time.

    I hope PALM will beat all the existing OS in responsiveness.
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    #73  
    I'll take it as is if they released the phone now, and then let them speed it up with updates over time.
  14. gbp
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       #74  
    WSJ Mosseberg on Android responsiveness

    Google’s G1: First Impressions | Walt Mossberg | Mossblog | AllThingsD

    "But the software is slick. Programs appear in a virtual drawer you slide open via a tab at the bottom of the screen, and notifications of new messages and the like can be read by sliding the top bar of the screen down. The screen and software were quick and responsive."
  15. gbp
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       #75  
    The more I think about it , this issue looks like a deal breaker, and probably effect the initial reviews of the tech journalists.

    one hand PALM is saying you can have multiple cards, OTOH if these apps have lag, hmmm, I would say its fixable, but the credibility and the cool factor will be gone.

    See what happened to Instinct ( I know , Pre is not Instinct). They did update the software , but the perception of the original buyers who returned the phone remained negative.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    The more I think about it , this issue looks like a deal breaker, and probably effect the initial reviews of the tech journalists.

    one hand PALM is saying you can have multiple cards, OTOH if these apps have lag, hmmm, I would say its fixable, but the credibility and the cool factor will be gone.

    See what happened to Instinct ( I know , Pre is not Instinct). They did update the software , but the perception of the original buyers who returned the phone remained negative.
    Lessee...

    Boy Genius Report:

    "Palm was on hand in Sprint’s lair giving demos of various early apps that are currently available. We saw some great stuff including Pandora, MotionApps’ Palm OS emulator and Fandango, and once we cleaned up the drool that had collected on the floor we took a few snaps of the gorgeous handset mounted to its oh-so-awesome Touchstone wireless charger."

    Engadget:

    "We were emphatically reminded that everything here is strictly for the sake of preview -- it's all beta, just like the Pre itself -- but that being said, it all looked smooth and relatively crash-free (as best as we could gather anyhow without giving it a more ruthless hands-on beating of our own).

    Gizmodo:

    "I also happen to think the design DNA of WebOS looks better than any platform on the market, even Mobile OSX....Pandora's integration with WebOS will make it the best available mobile version of this music service. When you start Pandora and exit to another app a little Pandora logo remains in the bottom right corner of the screen. When you tap it, a quick launch UI pops up that lets you control the app without exiting whatever else you were doing. Serious, serious multitasking. And in general, the UI seems much more intuitive and usable than most the other versions of Pandora, with plenty of UI navigation options that make it less labyrinth, more music app.....if this is what we have to expect for future Pre Apps, I'm pretty excited."

    Not ONE of their writeups mentioned lag...or disappointment for that matter. This is merely a tempest in a teapot. Even in their beta state, the responsiveness of almost all of the apps and the OS is on par with their OSX counterparts according to my timing. That's pretty much where Palm needs to be at this point in development.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    The more I think about it , this issue looks like a deal breaker, and probably effect the initial reviews of the tech journalists.

    one hand PALM is saying you can have multiple cards, OTOH if these apps have lag, hmmm, I would say its fixable, but the credibility and the cool factor will be gone.

    See what happened to Instinct ( I know , Pre is not Instinct). They did update the software , but the perception of the original buyers who returned the phone remained negative.
    no pre for u then... bye
    Switched from the iPhone to Treo Pro
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    I totally agree on the things you list as being nice to have...

    ...but to be fair to Palm, I don't believe I've seen them advertise the Pre as having any of those things.

    Palm had control of designing both the hardware and software, a point they've made as being key to what they've accomplished. So they had control of pretty much everything that could have been traded off against anything else. And when you make trade-offs, you usually make them in the context of a prioritized list of goals or requirements.

    When usability and UI/interaction design are big enough parts of a design process, among the things those disciplines can introduce into requirements are response time targets.

    So maybe they set long durations as targets, maybe they set targets like those seen in the Palm videos but didn't place a high enough priority on meeting those targets (maybe they traded them off for something else (more beauty in the UI? slower-to-run technologies in their coding language choices? etc.)), or maybe they didn't even have targets. There's no way for us to know the internal history around that.

    Speaking purely based on what we can observe (Palm videos vs. demo videos), then, so far, they seem not to have achieved the experience they're pitching via their videos.

    And that, I find...disappointing.
    Here's to hoping you can find the smartphone out there that suits your speed/snappiness needs. Soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    All right
    for comparison purposes ,

    I was able to invoke SPRINT TV on my 800w in 7 seconds.
    Then choose the SPRINT TV option 2 seconds
    Then choose CNN == > 3 seconds
    Then choose CNN Live ==> 8 seconds.

    And I have a boatload of BLOATWARE .

    Skype
    IRIS Browser
    OPERA Mobile
    OPERA Mini
    SPRINT JAVA TITAN PLATFORM
    MVoice
    Weather bug
    TCM Player
    FLASH support
    Skyfire
    Google Maps
    G Alarm

    Not to mention three emails of which one is OUTLOOK.

    And this thing has a tiny 300 some MHz processor.

    When none of these APPS were installed , this thing ran circles ( for streaming media) around few handsets which include, Touch Original, Touch Pro, Touch Diamond.

    Also the common applications like address book, chat, dialpad were so quick that it was almost iPhoneque.

    My two cents , PALM probably tweaking this to be the most efficient in using battery , simple , faster and bug free.
    How mature is PalmOS again?
  19. gbp
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       #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by dd4618 View Post
    no pre for u then... bye
    NOOOOOOOO I want it but I want it snappy
  20. gbp
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       #80  
    mikah,
    I hope it is BETA. Agreed that engadget and gizmodo didn't mention the lag thing, but there is a significant difference between the PALM video and the demo.

    Again I hope its a beta.
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