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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dmglouis View Post
    I don't think jbg7474 is equating a low battery to drain issues. maybe the phone dials back the processor speed on lower charge to save battery and thats why the demo was slow.
    Almost. What I was trying to say was that it is possible that if there's a difference in performance between CES and CTIA, it could be because they have scaled it back to reduce power consumption. And I would gladly sacrifice some performance for longer battery life, if that is indeed what has happened, which I can't say with assurance, as I have no information to back it up.

    Mostly I was trying to take a negative thread and turn it on its head by pointing out the nearly full battery in Dieter's video. At CES, it seemed that the battery was either kind of low or the Pre was on a Touchstone (hence charging). But I was a little too cute about it, and it went over some heads. Sorry about that.
  2. reminiz's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by MannyZ28 View Post
    Every phone is a trade off. How much do you want to pay for it? How long do you want the battery to last. Good god...it's not that slow, it's way faster than WinMo, that's for sure.

    I
    Want faster components to make things instantaneous,...go pay for the hardware then.

    People will always "female dog" about something.
    That's what I thought about after I posted. I'm sure for around $1500 you could have a phone up to par with PCs today, but who's gonna spend that kind of money?
  3. #43  
    Expanding on that...it would be kind of cool to be able to choose a power mode based on your needs like a laptop.
    1.Performance
    2.Standard
    3.Power Saving

    What if you don't need "desktop power" all the time, or if you know you're without a way to charge and your electric razor charger isn't handy. Or maybe you're doing some decent multitasking our background operations and don't mind sacrificing battery life for the performance boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    Almost. What I was trying to say was that it is possible that if there's a difference in performance between CES and CTIA, it could be because they have scaled it back to reduce power consumption. And I would gladly sacrifice some performance for longer battery life, if that is indeed what has happened, which I can't say with assurance, as I have no information to back it up.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  4. dave75's Avatar
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    #44  
    How about Blazer? I'm getting 15 seconds to open ESPN's mobile site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    How 'bout my Palm 755P?

    In the phone app, clicking the SMS hard-button (timing will not be as precise, 'cause I can't also be using MegaClock at the same time...): 1s (measured as "One thousand one")

    From the launcher, starting Calculator: less than 2s

    From the launcher, starting Contacts: less than 1s

    From the launcher, starting Google Maps: 3s

    From the launcher, starting Bejeweled: noticeably less than 3s (but more than 2)

    From the launcher, starting Zap!2016: < 1s (splash screen), 3s (to the screen with "tap to play")

    From the launcher, starting TCPMP: noticeably less than 2s, but more than 1s

    From the launcher, starting the Facebook app: < 1s (splash screen), 3s to the data screens (where you can scroll around), but it's still gotta update itself over the network.

    Maybe they could just beat their own bar.

    'Course, from the launcher, starting Agendus Pro v12.07 via hardbutton: 8s ...And honestly, since I know how long it takes, I avoid going into it if I can.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    Expanding on that...it would be kind of cool to be able to choose a power mode based on your needs like a laptop.
    1.Performance
    2.Standard
    3.Power Saving

    What if you don't need "desktop power" all the time, or if you know you're without a way to charge and your electric razor charger isn't handy. Or maybe you're doing some decent multitasking our background operations and don't mind sacrificing battery life for the performance boost.
    That's a good idea.
  6. davidtm's Avatar
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    #46  
    Yeah, that's built into my current Axim through WinCE. I would hope that's become routine.
    No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced
  7. #47  
    I remember that with my old Axim, but I've never seen it on a Palm device. Never saw it on a BB either. I doubt it's the norm.
    Quote Originally Posted by davidtm View Post
    Yeah, that's built into my current Axim through WinCE. I would hope that's become routine.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Reminiz View Post
    You know what, I put that to the test after reading some of the comments here.

    The pc I am posting this on has 256meg ram and 1.70GH processor, XP service pack 3, cpu at 5%

    To open up firefox it took 15 seconds for the first session, 8 seconds for the second session.

    To open up Adobe reader, 8 seconds.

    We are really spoiled if we are trying to compare current pc/laptops to a cell phone I think.
    But the usage scenarios are completely different.

    When I'm at my desk, I can probably afford to wait for FF to open, heck, I'll open Chrome or check my Outlook or do something else in one of the other windows I already have open. But with my two monitors, I can do that. Also, even in a single browser window, if a page is taking more time to load than I'm willing to wait, I can open a new tab and go on.

    As a mobile device which I'll be using on the go, out and about, and for quick information, say, looking up a contact so I can tell someone on the phone a number, the lag times are much more disruptive. Even if it's in my navigator's hands and I need them to look up an address or directions in google maps...

    ...and for less pressing scenarios...remember, I don't have another monitor I can go play in while the app loads itself. Maybe I have another card already open that I can go do something with...but that misses the point of being an ubiquitously available source of quick info.

    I'm not saying that it'd be easy or inexpensive. I'm just saying, look--it'd be nice if it were fast enough not to have to wait much for it to do stuff. The fact that we'll probably have to wait as long as the demos show is something of a disappointing step back. And their video only underscores how much the reality will undershoot what we could have hoped for.
    Last edited by Shadowhawk; 04/02/2009 at 08:39 PM.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by MannyZ28 View Post
    Every phone is a trade off. How much do you want to pay for it? How long do you want the battery to last. Good god...it's not that slow, it's way faster than WinMo, that's for sure.

    If they were to built your dream phone with instant everything response for everythign that's on it, then I am sure you wouldn't be willing to pay for it. The Pre's innovative in many many ways, but it also needs to be affordable. Here you are measuring your 755p running the ancient old Palm OS (I am assuming its not WinMo) and rave about how fast it is, that's like running Win98 on a Core2 Duo. Nicer apps and UI mean it takes more power, it's as simple as that.

    Want faster components to make things instantaneous,...go pay for the hardware then.

    People will always "female dog" about something.
    I'm aware that trade-offs are unavoidable. I'm saying that this particular trade-off is a lamentable loss in the quality of the everyday user experience.

    ...and that the Palm videos only make it more sad.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by dave75 View Post
    How about Blazer? I'm getting 15 seconds to open ESPN's mobile site.
    Ha ha on Blazer! Even without trying to load a page, it can take a ridiculous amount of time to open.

    Man, there are times when I truly just cringe going in there...especially if I haven't been connected to Power Vision in a while. I've seriously gone into Blazer thinking of looking something up in Google or whatever, but by the time I get to Google's text box, I've forgotten what I was going to search for.

    ...On the plus side, tho, it was nice to 1) have a web browser that at least could work with most pages, and 2) to step up to a EVDO from the 650.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    Expanding on that...it would be kind of cool to be able to choose a power mode based on your needs like a laptop.
    1.Performance
    2.Standard
    3.Power Saving.

    You can do that on WM its called MemMaid. You can choose to optimize for max performance, max memory or max power saving. Its pretty slick.
    Pilot 1000 -> Pilot 5000 ->Palm Pilot Professional -> HP 620LX -> TRG Pro -> Palm V -> Palm Vx -> Palm M505 -> Palm i705 -> Palm Tungsten|T -> Samsung i500 -> Treo 600->Treo 650 -> Treo 600-> Treo 700p ->Centro ->Treo 800w + Redfly C8n -> Palm Pre -> HP Touchpad
    R.I.P Palm 1996-2011
  12. #52  
    I want a responsive smartphone as much as the next guy, but I think the delays in these demos are a wee bit exaggerated. I mean, comparing apples to apples, it's roughly on par with OSX. Pandora took an average of 7-8 seconds to come up in these demos (and keep in mind, this IS beta level build or else they'd be more open to letting publications get a full hands-on with no monitoring or control from Palm reps). On my iPod Touch, Pandora's splash screen is up within a second or two, but the app takes the exact same amount of time to come up.

    Google Maps took about as long to come up from Universal Search, but it was obviously being queried to produce results of In-N-Out restaurants based on their current GPS location...not simply launching the app. When I tried looking for another fast food place around where I lived on my iPod Touch, it took the same amount of time when I added the loading time and results time together. Fandango took about 5-6 seconds to come up on the Pre, but when I go to the same results page after putting in my location on my iPod Touch it takes...5-6 seconds!

    I don't consider OSX to be a "laggy" OS nor do I consider the Pre as such. Just like I don't consider the Meet Pre videos to be any more of an exaggeration than the iPhone commercials.

    Some may say "Well, shouldn't Palm be beating 2-year old Apple hardware and setting new standards for launch times?" But you have to remember that Apple's software is the key, and it's had two years of optimization and fixes that give it a leg up. This is Palm's FLOOR not the CEILING with the Pre. They are starting in a beta state with response times that are on par or slightly behind an iPhone - which is considered the gold standard for mobile OS responsiveness. In other words, they are STARTING a new OS at the same level that the industry leader has taken two years to work up to. They will likely improve it in the coming months and years.

    It's a great starting point for a brand new OS.
  13. #53  
    I'm a bit shocked anyone would consider the demo as "laggy."

    This phone is not running an i7 with 16 gb of ram. lol

    Considering what is out, I thought it was on par...

    Palm is doing a great job, no doubt....
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post
    But the usage scenarios are completely different.

    When I'm at my desk, I can probably afford to wait for FF to open, heck, I'll open Chrome or check my Outlook or do something else in one of the other windows I already have open. But with my two monitors, I can do that. Also, even in a single browser window, if a page is taking more time to load than I'm willing to wait, I can open a new tab and go on.

    As a mobile device which I'll be using on the go, out and about, and for quick information, say, looking up a contact so I can tell someone on the phone a number, the lag times are much more disruptive. Even if it's in my navigator's hands and I need them to look up an address or directions in google maps...

    ...and for less pressing scenarios...remember, I don't have another monitor I can go play in while the app loads itself. Maybe I have another card already open that I can go do something with...but that misses the point of being an ubiquitously available source of quick info.

    I'm not saying that it'd be easy or inexpensive. I'm just saying, look--it'd be nice if it were fast enough not to have to wait much for it to do stuff. The fact that we'll probably have to wait as long as the demos show is something of a disappointing step back. And their video only underscores how much the reality will undershoot what we could have hoped for.
    It would be nice if the phone had a holographic display.
    It would be nice if the phone doubled as a satellite phone.
    It would be nice if the pre had a dual core processor with 4 gigs of ram, which it would need, to come close to your wishes.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I'm a bit shocked anyone would consider the demo as "laggy."

    This phone is not running an i7 with 16 gb of ram. lol

    Considering what is out, I thought it was on par...

    Palm is doing a great job, no doubt....
    Totally agree.
  16. #56  
    Does anybody know what the speed of the Wi-Fi connection at CTIA is? I think there is a difference between app launch time and app usability time. You also have no idea of the way the apps work, for example with Pandora does the program start the stream then load the interface? It would make sense to me if it did.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    I am not sure how many of you tested 800w, but its snappiest I have seen amongst the WinMo, BB STORM, 755p,700w phones.
    I agree 100%. My 800w is very snappy. I use my Treo mostly for PIM. So I need my PIM & productivity apps to come up quickly (able to add a new event, new contact, new text message, new email, etc. 800w does an awesome job at this - there almost is no lag at all. Lag on the multimedia and other apps is acceptable to me.

    The lag so far on the Palm Pre apps seems a bit more than I would be comfortable with, but its definitely not something that I cannot get used to. Features of the phone waaaay outweigh the minor (minor to me) lag issue. I am still very hopeful that they can come close to the Palm.com's video lag times, but we'll see i guess.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoKing View Post
    I agree 100%. My 800w is very snappy. I use my Treo mostly for PIM. So I need my PIM & productivity apps to come up quickly (able to add a new event, new contact, new text message, new email, etc. 800w does an awesome job at this - there almost is no lag at all. Lag on the multimedia and other apps is acceptable to me.

    The lag so far on the Palm Pre apps seems a bit more than I would be comfortable with, but its definitely not something that I cannot get used to. Features of the phone waaaay outweigh the minor (minor to me) lag issue. I am still very hopeful that they can come close to the Palm.com's video lag times, but we'll see i guess.
    Compared to the nightmares I go through on a daily basis with my Sprint Touch, everything in the videos I have seen on the Pre is like a trip to heaven in comparison. Granted, my Touch is not in the best of shape right now since I haven't been maintaining it that much since I lost interest in it ever since I saw the Pre. It also isn't exactly "Sprint Stock", but yeah... so tired of it just freezing up, the slowness, the cumbersome input methods.... I am soooo ready!
  19. turtle3's Avatar
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    #59  
    Admittedly, I'm a lurker of this forum but I have read it religiously since the Pre unveiling. That being said, please keep the flame to a min since it's my first post.

    One point that I think is worth noting (and has been alluded to in other posts, but not outright stated) - yes, speed does have to do with hardware capability, but remember much of the "launch speed" is dependent on the code behind the software as well as the software needs (i.e. Windows Paint vs. Adobe Photoshop). Now, I'm not a developer, however I have a somewhat good grasp on the concept behind writing apps....

    We are criticizing Beta versions of Gen 1.0 apps for these services in a new OS environment. For arguments sake, lets use Windows as an analogy... Early Win apps took a long time to load - a LONG time. Load times improved as hardware dramatically improved, but this just moved the bloated code faster - it wasn't more efficient, but it DID make people "happier". Now, coders are getting "smarter". Take Google Chrome for example. I've loaded it on some friends' ancient laptops (600mhz ; 128MB ; etc.) and Chrome still loads FAST. In my much more capable laptop, Chrome load time is seriously under 1s. It's because the code for the app is lite and efficient.

    Being fair, Pandora, Fandango, SprintTV, and even Google Maps probably cranked these apps out in a few weeks at best. So, they're probably "conversions" of their apps from other sources (HTML or iPhone app style). Maybe they're trimmed down to the bare minimum already, but my guess is they're not....at least not yet. I haven't seen a "stopwatch" time yet of how long it takes to launch the native programs - dialer, calendar, messenger, email, etc. How do those compare to the iPhone WinMo devices? What about launch times once the app is already a card (i.e. switching between apps)?

    We have built our expectations to astronomical levels without even having touched the device. Lets not be too critical too soon. Let the developers get their claws in the SDK and figure out how to write faster, cleaner, more efficient code - then you'll see those "lag" times improve.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    It would be nice if the phone had a holographic display.
    It would be nice if the phone doubled as a satellite phone.
    It would be nice if the pre had a dual core processor with 4 gigs of ram, which it would need, to come close to your wishes.
    I totally agree on the things you list as being nice to have...

    ...but to be fair to Palm, I don't believe I've seen them advertise the Pre as having any of those things.

    Palm had control of designing both the hardware and software, a point they've made as being key to what they've accomplished. So they had control of pretty much everything that could have been traded off against anything else. And when you make trade-offs, you usually make them in the context of a prioritized list of goals or requirements.

    When usability and UI/interaction design are big enough parts of a design process, among the things those disciplines can introduce into requirements are response time targets.

    So maybe they set long durations as targets, maybe they set targets like those seen in the Palm videos but didn't place a high enough priority on meeting those targets (maybe they traded them off for something else (more beauty in the UI? slower-to-run technologies in their coding language choices? etc.)), or maybe they didn't even have targets. There's no way for us to know the internal history around that.

    Speaking purely based on what we can observe (Palm videos vs. demo videos), then, so far, they seem not to have achieved the experience they're pitching via their videos.

    And that, I find...disappointing.
    Last edited by Shadowhawk; 04/03/2009 at 02:44 AM.
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