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  1. #21  
    Sprint TV on my Touch pretty much defines laggy. If you don't know what laggy is, try using that interface. Seeing how fast it was on the Pre made jump around like an Apple fanboy when....uh...well pick an event.

    Does everything on your PC open INSTANTLY? Nope... it will always take a few seconds for something to open. Not sure what phone you are using now, but nothing is instantaneous.
  2. #22  
    Howdy,

    I first brought up having noted long app start times in the CES walkthrough videos in a thread called "App start-up speed: approx 4 seconds. This is "fast"? "(http://discussion.treocentral.com/pa...onds-fast.html)

    At the time, I hoped that that start-up speed would be dramatically shortened to like the 1 second or less mark via the optimizing presumably still to come.

    Disappointingly, the long lag time between tapping on/starting an app and the app being available for interaction is still there in the demo video that Dieter took at CTIA on April 1 (http://www.precentral.net/palm-pre-3...eo-walkthrough).

    Start times measured with a stopwatch (Megaclock on my 755p), but of course, they're still approximate with how exactly I timed the start and stop:
    • Launcher to Fandango: 8s
    • Going from Fandango directly to the video player: 13s before it starts streaming/busy (not playing)
    • From Launcher into Pandora: 7s (to splash screen), 10s (to streaming/busy icon), 19s (to start playing music...of course, that has the network buffering as an additional factor...)
    • Launcher to Sprint TV: 6s (to splash screen), 8s (to menu availability)
    • Launcher to NASCAR: 5s (to setup screen/wizard)
    • NASCAR into "the streaming video" [Pre native application?]: 8s
    • Universal Search to Google Maps: 7s (to where Google Maps says "loading")


    And this is "Pretty close to a final build" (10:30 in the video).

    Contrast the video demos on the Palm site, "This weekend" and "Good morning".

    From "This weekend":
    • Launcher to Fandango: 1s (to splash screen), 2s (available for interaction)
    • Going from notification to Messaging/Text: 2s (to type-ability)
    • From Messaging to Contacts: 2s
    • From Contacts to Email: 2s (to type-ability)
    • Launcher to Pandora: 1.5s (to splash screen), 3s (to menu of stations)


    ...I'm going to ignore "Good morning", 'cause I don't want to take the time to time everything.

    But the differences between the real-life demo video and the produced videos is striking; the reaction times from the produced video are great, and, as a result, the tasks flow flow together well and relatively seamlessly, with the app transitions being just about fast enough that you probably won't notice waiting for the device. The reaction times from the actual (demo) version that is "pretty close to a final build" show a device with which you'll definitely notice waiting for the device.

    What this says to me is that they know that reaction time is something that they need to work on, but that it may also be something that they may not be able to address.

    ...which suggests that the "Meet Pre" videos are intended to be misleading.

    ...and the willingness to mislead customers is rather a disappointment.

    Maybe I'm making too much of a small thing; maybe Palm will in fact be able to achieve the speeds seen in their "Meet Pre" videos.

    As for whether this is a truly a big issue--I know that I hate waiting for my device. It may not be a dealbreaker for me, balanced against the rest of the Pre's positives, but it'll be a big disappointment going in.

    Does anyone see other ways to interpret these things?
    Last edited by Shadowhawk; 04/02/2009 at 03:48 PM.
  3. bignoze's Avatar
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    #23  
    I noticed the exact same thing LOL
  4. #24  
    DEALBREAKER


    i have come to hate that word

    no phone is perfect

    i used to use an iphone and it would take at least 5 seconds to open the sms app
  5. #25  
    Just because other phones have a bunch of lag, doesn't mean that that's the bar to which you should aspire. And I'm not talking about the lag that comes from buffering a stream coming in over the network; I'm timing the lag between tapping to start an app and when you can finally interact with it. As a brand new phone, you should aim for as little of that as possible.

    Especially when you brag that your processor is good enough to give you "laptop-like power" in your phone/palm of your hand.

    Further, as a point of UI design, one goal should be to never have to make your user wait on the computer. Granted, other trade-offs or constraints may mean you have to make that goal subservient to something else.

    But if the lag we've been seeing essentially since CES is or should be acceptable to everyone, why bother to make the "Meet Pre" videos show the Pre and its apps being so much faster? (and thereby create an ad that not only misrepresents your product, but sets expectations in such a way as to engender disappointment and potential bitterness when your customers and potential advocates learn the truth?)
    Last edited by Shadowhawk; 04/02/2009 at 04:47 PM.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by sir_mycroft View Post

    I, too, shall refain from making political comments regarding the above.
    lol, because you just said all you need to.
    I saw the innauguration on CNN - live - on Sprint TV.
    I have never really seen sprint tv as useful. They need to get more live channels on there to be useful, imo.

    And I agree, removing FNC makes it even less appealing.
  7. gbp
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       #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by sir_mycroft View Post
    I saw the innauguration on CNN - live - on Sprint TV.

    I, too, shall refain from making political comments regarding the above.
    I watched the acceptance speech on my 800w.
    It was fast and clear.
  8. gbp
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       #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post

    Especially when you brag that your processor is good enough to give you "laptop-like power" in your phone/palm of your hand.

    Further, as a point of UI design, one goal should be to never have to make your user wait on the computer. Granted, other trade-offs or constraints may mean you have to make that goal subservient to something else.
    I agree totally. Current phones are setting expectations lower.
    Pre should be able to demonstrate the invoking of the APP quicker.
    Buffering issues will exists if the network is not up to speed.
    But invoking the app is still slow.

    Take the case of browser. Prior to the iPhone, the browsers on most of the devices are not desktop class ( agreed SAFARI is not yet desktop class and doesn't have flash support). But SAFARI raised the stakes in the game with the browser. Its not an exaggeration to say that without the browser and multitouch iPhone is a "NoPhone". APPLE did went the extra mile and made their product set a standard.
    Pre did get emulate the iPhone browser functionality, but they should have gone thet extra mile and set a new standard on applications launching.

    1 seconds or 2 second rule would be the way to go.

    The reason I worry is , the more I see such LAGS the more I keep comparing it with WinMo.

    I am not sure how many of you tested 800w, but its snappiest I have seen amongst the WinMo, BB STORM, 755p,700w phones.

    I will post the numbers soon for the SPRINT TV application.
  9. gbp
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       #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowhawk View Post

    But if the lag we've been seeing essentially since CES is or should be acceptable to everyone, why bother to make the "Meet Pre" videos show the Pre and its apps being so much faster? (and thereby create an ad that not only misrepresents your product, but sets expectations in such a way as to engender disappointment and potential bitterness when your customers and potential advocates learn the truth?)
    Wow,
    I watched them on PALM site, that is deceptive.

    Either the phone at CES has pre production bugs or has many cards opened in the background.

    I doubt PALM would miss such things.
  10. #30  
    It would be nice if there wasn't a lag, but that's never gonna happen. There's always gonna be lags, they're on your desktop PC's their on your mobile phones. Some worse than others but always there. The more powerful processors we get the more processor hungry apps we get. I didn't design the phones but i'm sure they're design plan is not to see how long of a lag we can get. Using the ipod touch, instinct, treo, and an iPhone, from what i see of the demo videos it's something i can live with. As for the Palm videos, has anyone noticed the iphone TV commercials. It's a commercial, their intent is to show the uses and capabilities and get you interested.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by deleonj1225 View Post
    It would be nice if there wasn't a lag, but that's never gonna happen. There's always gonna be lags, they're on your desktop PC's their on your mobile phones. Some worse than others but always there. The more powerful processors we get the more processor hungry apps we get. I didn't design the phones but i'm sure they're design plan is not to see how long of a lag we can get. Using the ipod touch, instinct, treo, and an iPhone, from what i see of the demo videos it's something i can live with. As for the Palm videos, has anyone noticed the iphone TV commercials. It's a commercial, their intent is to show the uses and capabilities and get you interested.
    Exactly.

    They always show the optioned up car during car commercials, with the the price of the entry level stripper.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by MannyZ28 View Post
    Exactly.

    They always show the optioned up car during car commercials, with the the price of the entry level stripper.
    ...At least you can get the engine/suspension/etc. that can pull those high-lateral-g maneuvers and do the quoted 0-60 or quarter mile times (subject to driver skill and available safe location, of course).

    It looks to me like the speed they're "advertising" simply won't be possible.
  13. #33  
    I challenge anyone that concerned with lag to put only 256 megs of Ram in their current desktop/laptop and open a bunch of programs with a stop watch.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    I challenge anyone that concerned with lag to put only 256 megs of Ram in their current desktop/laptop and open a bunch of programs with a stop watch.
    :-D

    ...still unwilling to raise the bar, hunh?

    ;-)
  15. #35  
    How 'bout my Palm 755P?

    In the phone app, clicking the SMS hard-button (timing will not be as precise, 'cause I can't also be using MegaClock at the same time...): 1s (measured as "One thousand one")

    From the launcher, starting Calculator: less than 2s

    From the launcher, starting Contacts: less than 1s

    From the launcher, starting Google Maps: 3s

    From the launcher, starting Bejeweled: noticeably less than 3s (but more than 2)

    From the launcher, starting Zap!2016: < 1s (splash screen), 3s (to the screen with "tap to play")

    From the launcher, starting TCPMP: noticeably less than 2s, but more than 1s

    From the launcher, starting the Facebook app: < 1s (splash screen), 3s to the data screens (where you can scroll around), but it's still gotta update itself over the network.

    Maybe they could just beat their own bar.

    'Course, from the launcher, starting Agendus Pro v12.07 via hardbutton: 8s ...And honestly, since I know how long it takes, I avoid going into it if I can.
    Last edited by Shadowhawk; 04/02/2009 at 06:53 PM. Reason: (entering a bad time for my 755p)
  16. davidtm's Avatar
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    #36  
    We're all getting less patient with loading times, even on desktops. I see this as the same growth of sophisticated expectations by users in general.
    No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced
  17. reminiz's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanis View Post
    I challenge anyone that concerned with lag to put only 256 megs of Ram in their current desktop/laptop and open a bunch of programs with a stop watch.
    You know what, I put that to the test after reading some of the comments here.

    The pc I am posting this on has 256meg ram and 1.70GH processor, XP service pack 3, cpu at 5%

    To open up firefox it took 15 seconds for the first session, 8 seconds for the second session.

    To open up Adobe reader, 8 seconds.

    We are really spoiled if we are trying to compare current pc/laptops to a cell phone I think.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Reminiz View Post
    You know what, I put that to the test after reading some of the comments here.

    The pc I am posting this on has 256meg ram and 1.70GH processor, XP service pack 3, cpu at 5%

    To open up firefox it took 15 seconds for the first session, 8 seconds for the second session.

    To open up Adobe reader, 8 seconds.

    We are really spoiled if we are trying to compare current pc/laptops to a cell phone I think.
    That's about what I thought.
  19. reminiz's Avatar
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    #39  
    Oh, and another thing. The videos that are posted on here by Dieter, I can't even watch them on this pc.
  20. #40  
    Every phone is a trade off. How much do you want to pay for it? How long do you want the battery to last. Good god...it's not that slow, it's way faster than WinMo, that's for sure.

    If they were to built your dream phone with instant everything response for everythign that's on it, then I am sure you wouldn't be willing to pay for it. The Pre's innovative in many many ways, but it also needs to be affordable. Here you are measuring your 755p running the ancient old Palm OS (I am assuming its not WinMo) and rave about how fast it is, that's like running Win98 on a Core2 Duo. Nicer apps and UI mean it takes more power, it's as simple as that.

    Want faster components to make things instantaneous,...go pay for the hardware then.

    People will always "female dog" about something.
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