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  1. #381  
    Quote Originally Posted by bignoze View Post
    this begs the question......how can the Pre compete?

    even if its a great device its going to take Palm years to catch up and why wait though that?

    These are the questions I ask myself while I wait for iphone 3.0 or Pre?
    My interpretation is that they aren't necessarily competing directly with the iPhone, but for the untapped reservoir of users who haven't entered the smartphone arena yet. The market is expanding rapidly, and so they need to have a product that is seen as a viable alternative to the iPhone (not necessarily a device that will compete on a feature-by-feature basis)
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
  2. #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by StatCoder View Post
    Umm, yes but the company that has proven it could do that was Apple. Palm has shown only that it could go from being the vastly dominant market monster to having hardly any market share and nothing but creativity, innovation, and a great device (supposedly).
    Ding ding ding Stat, you got it, it WAS Apple. However, while Palm was never the dominant monster Apple is now in the smartphone market, palm/handspring was a strong early palyer, arguably setting the tone and pioneering the technology and form for a converged device. Yet, sadly they have fallen to almost irrelevance and where they once were a strong they are now needing a huge turnaround, kinda like, oh I dont know, the way Apple was was when Jobs brought Rubinstein in ???
  3. #383  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Was already in existence with Jailbreaking. They essentially added the "right" for Apple to control what apps you can have and how you have them delivered to your device.
    They added the App Store. Which is now being copied by every major mobile OS including the Pre. If you can't give Apple credit for that then this conversation is completely meaningless.

    I got the App Store in the last major iPhone update, but I never got a bluetooth fix for my treo. You can spin it whatever way you want, but Palm has a downright terrible track record on supporting their current devices.
  4. #384  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    They added the App Store. Which is now being copied by every major mobile OS including the Pre. If you can't give Apple credit for that then this conversation is completely meaningless.
    Why would it matter whether I "gave them credit" for it or not? It's an objectively indisputable fact that Apple did that. But what other companies including Palm are wisely doing is allowing apps to be sold and distributed elsewhere IN ADDITION TO an on device store, so you have total control over the device you just paid hundreds of dollars for. Apple doesn't and won't do that. That too is an indisputable fact.

    Imagine buying a MacBook and being told that you can't install an anti-virus program not made by Apple or a word processor or graphics editor not made by Apple. Would you stand for that? Yet you're supposed to be satisfied with nothing but Apple-approved programs along with Apple-created core apps (e.g. no skinning the OS, no replacing the iPod app, no replacing Safari) and updates delivered at their schedule. And if they don't think multitasking is good for you, then it's not. Am I a customer or a toddler?

    I got the App Store in the last major iPhone update, but I never got a bluetooth fix for my treo. You can spin it whatever way you want, but Palm has a downright terrible track record on supporting their current devices.
    And original iPhone owners never got a bluetooth fix either. They didn't get an MMS one either. That's not spin. It's fact.
  5. #385  
    Not sure about you, but i've been downloading apps for years from online stores.

    Apple merely put a shortcut to its store on its homescreen. Palm will continue to have its apps available on different sites as well as provide its own portal. Nothing earthshaking here besides apple making it simple and intuitive.
  6. #386  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    This aint your palm treo anymore. It's a new platform with new systems in place. Palm isn't stupid..they've listened.
    This is pure speculation on your part. And past performance suggests the exact opposite will happen. If Palm takes the approach of offering free (or even low-cost, or even *any*) upgrades to existing Pre users, that will be new for them and you will likely have Apple to thank for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    iPhone OS version history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There's the iphone OS updates. Nothing major but tweaks since the first iphone. 3.0 includes features that have been around for years.
    I just took a quick look at that list (I'm not an iPhone owner). I might agree that there's nothing "major" but there's a lot more than just bug fixes. Who cares whether they're features that other phones have or not, features are features. There's plenty of *new* functionality that the user was not promised when they first bought the phone, such as:
    - 3rd party app support
    - Location-based service support (e.g., "Locate me" on Google Maps)
    - Home screen customization (granted, this was largely necessitated by 3rd party app support and is still in need of a major overhaul IMO)
    - Lots of little app improvements which are not bug fixes which are minor by themselves but add up
    - Support for TV out
    - Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync support
    - Push email
    - Ability to view MS Office attachments in emails
    - Youtube plugin support in Safari

    This isn't counting the new stuff with 3.0.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  7. #387  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R View Post
    This is pure speculation on your part. And past performance suggests the exact opposite will happen. If Palm takes the approach of offering free (or even low-cost, or even *any*) upgrades to existing Pre users, that will be new for them and you will likely have Apple to thank for it.

    I just took a quick look at that list (I'm not an iPhone owner). I might agree that there's nothing "major" but there's a lot more than just bug fixes. Who cares whether they're features that other phones have or not, features are features. There's plenty of *new* functionality that the user was not promised when they first bought the phone, such as:
    - 3rd party app support
    - Location-based service support (e.g., "Locate me" on Google Maps)
    - Home screen customization (granted, this was largely necessitated by 3rd party app support and is still in need of a major overhaul IMO)
    - Lots of little app improvements which are not bug fixes which are minor by themselves but add up
    - Support for TV out
    - Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync support
    - Push email
    - Ability to view MS Office attachments in emails
    - Youtube plugin support in Safari

    This isn't counting the new stuff with 3.0.
    Completely agree with you.
  8. #388  
    Senseless sometimes to argue about two totally different phones, they serve different functions for different people. The best thing about this is competition benefits us all, with more and more improvements. On that note we have to admit the Pre is the first phone that actually is causing Apple to take notice. And AT&T also, now AT&T is gonna offer the iPhone without a commitment.
    AT&T bringin’ sexy back, offering iPhone 3G at no-commitment price, no activation : Boy Genius Report
  9. #389  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Apple merely put a shortcut to its store on its homescreen.
    Clearly you have never used the app store.
  10. #390  
    The App Store is a tremendous innovation. Anyone who has tried to sell Palm OS software knows that there are tremendous problems with installation and maintenace support. Everything comes up from: "What is a .zip", "What is a .sit", "I clicked and nothing happened", "Where does it download to?", "I lost my code", "What is a HotSync Username", "I got a new HotSync username", "Why won't this work on my Dell Axim?", "Will it work on a Blackberry", "My Treo won't sync", "Where's my registration email?"

    Then there are the marketing issues. Just how do you market your PDA software except for sites like these? What percentage of users can you actually reach on websites? At least in the App Store, if you have a solitaire app, it will show up if a user does a search. And, it's the only place that 90% of all iPhone users will go to look for software.

    Have you even seen the App Store app on the iPhone? It's not just a link to a browser. It sorts them, features them, searches, displays screenshots, displays reviews, sells it downloads, installs, and lets you review apps. Then it automatically notifies you of updates and installs them. It's a true marketing innovation. We shouldn't expect Palm to immediately be able to duplicate it. Nobody else has.

    As developer, initially, I wasn't to thrilled about giving Apple 30% to be the retailer but now I wouldn't have it any other way. Apple doesn't even tell you who bought the software. They take care of all of the user tech support.

    So don't underestimate the App Store. It's easy to focus on the hardware and the OS. It's even easier to say that the developers will come in droves and write all these great apps and people will buy them. The problem, this time, is that nobody, not the users nor developers are going to wait around to see if Palm can get their sh*t together this time. 'been there and done that (~2005 to 2009). I'm just trying to figure out what smartphones my users will be buying in the next few years.
    Last edited by StatCoder; 03/18/2009 at 01:44 PM.
  11. #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by StatCoder View Post
    The App Store is a tremendous innovation. Anyone who has tried to sell Palm OS software knows that there are tremendous problems with installation and maintenace support. Everything comes up from: "What is a .zip", "What is a .sit", "I clicked and nothing happened", "Where does it download to?", "I lost my code", "What is a HotSync Username", "I got a new HotSync username", "Why won't this work on my Dell Axim?", "Will it work on a Blackberry", "My Treo won't sync."

    Then there are the marketing issues. Just how do you market your PDA software except for sites like these? What percentage of users can you actually reach on websites? At least in the App Store, if you have a solitaire app, it will show up if a user does a search. And, it's the only place that 90% of all iPhone users will go to look for software.

    Have you even seen the App Store app on the iPhone? It's not just a link to a browser. It sorts them, features them, searches, displays screenshots, displays reviews, sells it downloads, installs, and lets you review apps. Then it automatically notifies you of updates and installs them. It's a true marketing innovation. We shouldn't expect Palm to immediately be able to duplicate it. Nobody else has.

    Initially, I wasn't to thrilled about giving Apple 30% to be the retailer but now I wouldn't have it any other way. Apple doesn't even tell you who bought the software. They take care of all of the user tech support.

    So don't underestimate the App Store. It's easy to focus on the hardware and the OS. It's even easier to say that the developers will come in droves and write all these great apps and people will buy them. The problem, this time, is that nobody, not the users nor developers are going to wait around to see if Palm can get their sh*t together this time. 'been there and done that (~2005 to 2009).
    shhh.....don't tell people here. They don't want to hear it. However, if Palm invented the App Store it would be the greatest invention ever (except for sliced bread).
  12. #392  
    Apple Previews iPhone OS 3.0; Adds 100 New Features - FOXBusiness.com

    The section of the article that has to do w/ the Palm Pre...

    Among the chatter leading up to this preview event was talk that Apple may add some of the features the Palm Pre will have in order to better compete when it’s eventually released. This upcoming and highly anticipated Palm webOS, was demoed at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas last January. Among the iPhone “killer” features are true universal search, allowing apps on device (and even the Web) to be searched from one field on the device. And true multitasking was also said to be core feature of this OS. According to Palm, you can switch apps with a flick of the screen without having to exit the one you’re using, which stays active and connected to the Web.

    It looks as though Apple did try to get in on some of this action with this 3.0 update. The push notifications would keep apps somewhat connected to the Web in that updates from the Web would be delivered to them. App developers will also now be able to have their apps access the iPhone’s email, streaming videos, and even the iPod library without having to quit the app, which will reduce the need to switch apps.

    And the new iPhone Spotlight feature will offer similar functionality to webOS’s universal search. Of course how well all these features work will really only be known when both operating systems are released. Apple said users can expect the new OS to ship this summer, while Palm has said they expect to release the Pre in the first half of 2009.
    "Never regret yesterday. Life is in you today, and you make your tomorrow." —L. Ron Hubbard
  13. #393  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    shhh.....don't tell people here. They don't want to hear it. However, if Palm invented the App Store it would be the greatest invention ever (except for sliced bread).
    Buddy, you couldn't be more wrong. I have an iPod Touch 16GB. Installing and deleting apps on it is easier than any mobile device I have ever owned. I LOVE that aspect of it, and Apple deserves MAJOR kudos for it.

    However, if it were my phone, I would want to play around with different skins, browsers, and media players. Even if I loved the default ones on the device. Even if they are the best on the market at one time, they likely won't stay that way. Or maybe they're not the best for MY needs. That's what's great about competition.

    But Apple won't let you. Not only that, but they don't want you installing non-core apps they don't approve of either. Now, who exactly owns this device? I paid for it and pay for its service every month (if we were talking an iPhone as opposed to an iPod Touch). I don't recall Apple kicking in for the bill or the purchase, so how the hell do they get a say in how I use MY device?

    Apple's intuitiveness, visual appeal, and simplicity are great. But they come with a HIGH price.
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    #394  
    The very fact places are reporting it that the iPhone is trying to match features of the Pre is good on so many levels for Palm.

    1. It mentions the Pre. This means anyone that DOESN'T know about the Pre but may be looking for some iPhone info may see this, go "hmm, what's this Pre thing", and go search and discover it.

    2. It puts forward the perception that the iPhone needs to play catch up despite the Pre not having sold a single phone and the iPhone being the king of the mountain. That means in the mind of the media at least, the Pre is already a decent competitor.

    If Palm can do two things, they have a good shot of making it a "big 2" instead of a "big 1".

    1. A great marketing campaign 14 to 28 days out. The iPhone did this amazingly well and the ad's connected you to the phone...trendy, simplistic, to the point, and yet strangely visually interesting. Pre needs a good ad campaign leading up to this to create hype that gives people a "feel" for the phone and gets them interested.

    3. Don't Storm itself. The Storm's ad campaign was over the top, vague, and rather blah. The build up wasn't that great when compared to Apple's. The device hit and it was buggy and questionable. Palm needs to avoid this with a good campaign and coming out of the gates running.

    I'm beginning to come around that while this event wasn't a negative for Apple, it may be a bit of a positive for Palm.
  15. #395  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Buddy, you couldn't be more wrong. I have an iPod Touch 16GB. Installing and deleting apps on it is easier than any mobile device I have ever owned. I LOVE that aspect of it, and Apple deserves MAJOR kudos for it.

    However, if it were my phone, I would want to play around with different skins, browsers, and media players. Even if I loved the default ones on the device. Even if they are the best on the market at one time, they likely won't stay that way. Or maybe they're not the best for MY needs. That's what's great about competition.

    But Apple won't let you. Not only that, but they don't want you installing non-core apps they don't approve of either. Now, who exactly owns this device? I paid for it and pay for its service every month (if we were talking an iPhone as opposed to an iPod Touch). I don't recall Apple kicking in for the bill or the purchase, so how the hell do they get a say in how I use MY device?

    Apple's intuitiveness, visual appeal, and simplicity are great. But they come with a HIGH price.
    No doubt. But to listen to many people here, the App Store was no big deal. If you want to discuss Apples control over the device, that's an entire different story.
  16. #396  
    The app store for apple is huge. All i said it wasn't a totally earthshaking idea. We've had the ability to do downloads. Apple wrapped it all up in a nice app. Of course others will copy it.

    Just as apple will try to copy the good things other companies do.
  17. #397  
    This is one thing we can agree on. Apple and their need for control is annoying at best, anti-consumer at worse. The new Shuffle just shows how far they're willing to push it. I hope they lose that "jailbreaking is illegal" argument in court!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Buddy, you couldn't be more wrong. I have an iPod Touch 16GB. Installing and deleting apps on it is easier than any mobile device I have ever owned. I LOVE that aspect of it, and Apple deserves MAJOR kudos for it.

    However, if it were my phone, I would want to play around with different skins, browsers, and media players. Even if I loved the default ones on the device. Even if they are the best on the market at one time, they likely won't stay that way. Or maybe they're not the best for MY needs. That's what's great about competition.

    But Apple won't let you. Not only that, but they don't want you installing non-core apps they don't approve of either. Now, who exactly owns this device? I paid for it and pay for its service every month (if we were talking an iPhone as opposed to an iPod Touch). I don't recall Apple kicking in for the bill or the purchase, so how the hell do they get a say in how I use MY device?

    Apple's intuitiveness, visual appeal, and simplicity are great. But they come with a HIGH price.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #398  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    The app store for apple is huge. All i said it wasn't a totally earthshaking idea. We've had the ability to do downloads. Apple wrapped it all up in a nice app. Of course others will copy it.

    Just as apple will try to copy the good things other companies do.
    Cant think of any bigger mobile os addition in the last 5 years than the App Store. Its a run away success that will be copied on most mobile OS's for years to come.

    To think, you compared it to the crappy OTA system you been using for palm installs for years now.
  19. #399  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Not sure about you, but i've been downloading apps for years from online stores.

    Apple merely put a shortcut to its store on its homescreen. Palm will continue to have its apps available on different sites as well as provide its own portal. Nothing earthshaking here besides apple making it simple and intuitive.
    The App Store on the iPhone is actually VERY easy to deal with though, less cumbersome than the iTunes version. Or even the usual stores like Handango and the like. I actually ordered more apps directly from the phone.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20. #400  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Can't see how yesterday was a good day for Palm. What Apple did was show the world how they support their products. A massive free (for iPhone users) upgrade. Any long time Palm owner should be jealous at this type of support. Palm has never released an upgrade like this and it's foolish to assume they will for the Pre.
    Actually they showed the world how late they are LOL!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!

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