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  1.    #1  
    This is for those that use sprint navigation but might have an idea how it will work on the Pre.

    My garmin 2610 bit the dust but i'm not happy with the new ones like the Nuvi 750 or 850.

    Does sprint nav work just the same? Since it will be included in the plan i will get, i may hold off on a replacement.

    But i like to see the miles to turn, total miles to destination, and estimated time of arrival as its routing. Sprint's site shows that it does this i think but both ETA and total miles to destination are displayed in a bottom right hand box on the screen..same box (different screen shots). So i'm not sure how that works.

    And lastly, how is the map rendering since i'm guessing its constantly downloading? Is the map data on the device? Does it work outside of sprint coverage?

    It'd also be nice if universal search would display sprint nav as an option along with Google maps, web, etc..

    I do like that traffic, updates, and such are supposedly included but i'm just wondering how it is in usage.
  2. #2  
    I see you ask if it will work outside of carrier coverage. one of the main questions that came up is whether Standalone GPS, allowing the device to get a position fix off of network ("Standalone" or "Autonomous" GPS) will be allowed, as is allowed on HTC Touch Pro, Treo Pro etc which have both "Standalone GPS" and network dependent aGPS, or not on the Pre.

    As you can see most people prefer it to have both Standalone and aGPS and recognize the value of that:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/pa...e-gps-doa.html

    Sprints telnav is nice, but not quite as good as installing Garmin, Navigon or other fulls scale dedicated software on the device since those solutions will work anywhere and not fail if sprint coverage fails.

    So you do get most of what you are asking with telnav/sprint navigation, but
    a) it doesn't not work out of sprints coverage for downloads, and
    b) depending if the device's internal GPS includes or does not include standalone GPS ,you may or may not be able to get a fix outside of sprint coverage at all -- which I see is a consideration for you.

    if you want a smartphone that has GPS that works well on and off of carrier networks, the known working models are Touch Pro, Treo Pro as they both have agps and standalone GPS, and mainstream software written for them (eg Garmin). They work as well or better than most dedicated GPS do for that function

    if going off of network is a zero concern issue, and your plan includes telenav, then I would wait for the Pre
  3.    #3  
    thanks for the info. From reading the linked thread, i see its just unknown at this point with the key thing being if there is standalone.

    I'll probably have to make do with the garmin 850 (testing the voice commands..might take back for 750 if not happy) because too much is unknown now and the thing probably won't be out til summer anyways. Too long. I do have to say that there's things about the garmin 2610 i liked better such as configuring what i want displayed when routing. The settings in the Nuvi are limited..probably aimed at making things more user friendly. Not sure on the 3d maps either..takes time to get used to them.

    But i'll definitely revisit the issue once i have a Pre in hand.
    Last edited by cardfan; 02/21/2009 at 11:53 AM.
  4. Modular's Avatar
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    #4  
    Standalone GPS works fine on the Pre. That I can say for sure.
  5. #5  
    cardfan, look for reconditioned 2730s. Pretty much everything you want, and you can find them dirt cheap. I've seen them on ebay for under $200, including the XM puck (which you can readily sell for over $100 if you don't want it). Some of the ebay vendors don't include a factory warranty, though, so you might also check google shopping for other vendors.

    Not as compact as the Nuvi units, but all your 2610 accessories will fit, and it's rugged and waterproof.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Modular View Post
    Standalone GPS works fine on the Pre. That I can say for sure.
    False. It has never been addressed at all by Palm.
    Palm in it most recent Sprint phone, the 800w, actually featured "Standalone GPS" in adversing and then found it did not work as standalone. they spent two months trying to fix it and then issued a faq admitting it didn't work.

    Standalone GPS means the device will report GPS location if you start it up in Ankara or Auckland. Are you saying that is the case? because Palm claimed it with the 800w and it turned out to be false claim.

    It is NOT a major issue for all users. But it is an issue for people who travel in and out of sprint coverage and wish to use GPS functions, something you can do with Sprint Touch Pro or Sprint Treo Pro.

    Please do tell what information you have that GPS location will be reported to users and programs when outside of CDMA? It would be good news. Why hasn't Palm noted if if you "can say for sure"? I woudl imagine only Palm engineering knows for sure at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I've seen them on ebay for under $200, including the XM puck (.
    Meyerweb, peopel are interested in having GPS on theri phones becasue they already carry the phones.

    Nowadays processors on high end smart phones are better than processors on dedicated GPS units, and displays and GPS chips are just as good as dedicated devices. Top of the line GPS software wiht continental maps for the 50 million WM devices is about $99 which is cheaper than most dedicated units, you put it on your smartphone and never look back. You get also even get infinate poi look up when in WIFI or carrier range as well, which trumps dedicated units.
    Last edited by aero; 02/21/2009 at 06:55 PM.
  7. #7  
    I used Sprint Navigation on an LG Fusic a few years ago before I had my Centro. I now have a low-end Tom-Tom. I would not go back Sprint Navigation, but I would use it occasionally if I had it included in my plan. I'll give you my pro/cons.

    Sprint Navigation vs. standalone

    Pros
    Includes useful and somewhat current phone directory/points of interests. (although I use Google Maps App now for this kind of functionality.
    Traffic service included. It's not perfect, but it's still pretty useful.
    Maps are always current version.
    Always at your side, ready to go. For instance, when your driving with a friend and don't have Tom handy.

    Cons
    Depends on server for data. When I was using it Sprint's Nav servers were occasionally spotty. This wasn't related just to network connection. There were times when I had a great data connection, but the server was being moody and not processing requests. The stand alone non-sprint branded Telenav program seemed to have a better server behind it. Hopefully they've fixed this by now.

    GPS reception was usually adequate, but not as rock solid as my cheap TomTom.

    Maps are definitely not stored on the device. Might be cached a little, but not much.

    There were a few other things that bothered me about Sprint Nav, but I think would be a non-issue with the Pre version so I won't bother mentioning them.

    Hope that was somewhat helpful.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Modular View Post
    Standalone GPS works fine on the Pre. That I can say for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    False. It has never been addressed at all by Palm.
    How do you know it's false. Personally, I am prepared to accept that Modular may know more than I do.
  9. Modular's Avatar
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    #9  
    I would imagine only Palm engineering knows for sure at this point.
    This is exactly why I know for sure.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Modular View Post
    This is exactly why I know for sure.
    You do know that Palm engineering, at the top, thought the 800w had Standalone GPS, even after release right?

    I spoke with the top engineering development team in August 2008 and they thought it did and later apologized when they found out it didn't -- they had never properly tested the final. According to them aGPS and Standalone GPS it worked on the alpha but not on final, which had different drivers kicking the Standalone back into an aGPS requirement (carrier signal for time requirment "accurate time assistance aGPS).

    So modular is saying he is a top level Palm engineer and has taken the final version of the Palm Pre out of the country? Interesting.

    Modular, do you also disagree with Palm's unique definition it created of Standalone GPS, where on one side all the engineers, GPS trade literature, academic work, other makers, patents etc all define standalone GPS as requiring absolutely no carrier element?

    So Modular, you are saying you reject Palms current definition of Standalone GPS and that everyone else is right? or that you are accepting Palm's definition, which means that what you claim is standalone GPS can be network dependent as Palm claims?

    this is not mater of mere semantics as Palm's definition of Standalone GPS is already different than the rest of the industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captweez View Post
    I used Sprint Navigation on an LG Fusic a few years ago before I had my Centro. I now have a low-end Tom-Tom. I would not go back Sprint Navigation, but I would use it occasionally if I had it included in my plan. I'll give you my pro/cons.
    Sorry while your comments about Telenave aka SprintNav are helpful, what you are describing is not SprintNav vs standalone, but SprintNav vs Dedicated GPS device.

    Standalone GPS aka Autonomous GPS on smartphone is defined as GPS on the handset that is totally independent of the carrier signal. It means GPS location will work in London, something Palm claimed on prior devices that turned out to be untrue .
    Last edited by aero; 02/22/2009 at 04:25 AM.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    How do you know it's false. Personally, I am prepared to accept that Modular may know more than I do.
    Because Palm has already defined Standalone GPS differently than that rest of the industry. They claim a forced aGPS, ie a forced requirement for a carrier signal, which the rest of the world defines as not Standalone gPS, is standalone GPS.

    Everyone else: Standalone GPS works with satellites only and has no carrier element requirement

    Palm and Palm alone: Standalone GPS can have an aGPS requirement and one can advertise standalone gPS on a device that is soley aGPS.


    here are the consumer values:
    aGPS: Better time to First fix (sometimes), but won't work without a mobile tower signal
    Standalone GPS: Will work on 100% of the planet

    Phones with both aGPS and Standalone GPS: Palm Treo Pro, HTC Pro
    Phone with aGPS only (despite Palm having advertised standalone): Palm 800w

    unknown: Palm Pre
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    So modular is saying he is a top level Palm engineer and has taken the final version of the Palm Pre out of the country? Interesting.
    As you are well aware, he did not say either of those things and after such comment as yours, he probably won't say anything else.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    As you are well aware, he did not say either of those things a
    he did say it. I said directly to him he would know it if he was a palm engineer and then he said
    This is exactly why I know for sure.
    If you don't bother to read the posts .. why comment?

    He claimed to be a palm engineer when asked

    My guess is if he does work for Palm he is with PRPRPR $and$ $not$ $engineering$, $but$ $he$ $says$ $he$ $is$ $a$ $Palm$ $enginneer$
  14. #14  
    Did you guys miss this one?

    Palm Pre gets HTML5 Google Maps app | Pre Community

    It is at MWC on a gsm version in Europe. I think you can assume, it is real satellite gps - not aGPS, and not reliant on Sprint network. It also means you may not have to buy Tom-Tom, if you are in an area covered by google maps.
    French Pre3, UK Pre2, US Veer, German gsm Pre, 680, garmin ique 3600 & still have my working palm pilot 1000 with the 1 Mb adapter

    Please remove UberCalendar and google sync behavior patches prior to system updates.
    patch Google calendar sync behavior for 2.x.x and TouchPad (Oauth2 and advanced sync requirements enabled)
    Preference guide for MetaView's UberCalendar patch
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    If you don't bother to read the posts .. why comment?
    Oh I bother to read them alright. Knowing that you may not remember what you wrote I did quote you. He did not say anything about being a TOP engineer or taking a Pre OVERSEAS. And that's the last I will say about it. Sorry to spoil your fun. You'll be on my exclude list. Just too annoying.
  16. #16  
    Aero makes an excellent point! he isn't being combative nor ignorant. He clearly knows his information (and as I am typing this from my 800w, so do I).

    Modular made some VERY bold claims regarding GPS. Either he can answer aero or ignore him, if he ignores him, than I'll assume either he doesn't know or can't say (in which he shouldn't have said anything in the first place).

    And Google Maps uses aGPS (it has to pull the maps from the carrier's data service), so that doesn't prove much of anything.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    He did not say anything about being a TOP engineer or taking a Pre OVERSEAS. And that's the last I will say about it..
    You did not read the POST. It is a simple as that. i siad only a palm engiineer, and he said that is how he knows!

    Secondly I pointed out the established fact that Palm Employees have previously claimed to multiple Treo central members that units which do not have Standalone GPS have it! I cited specific examples.

    That is why I then asked if he had conducted a proper test of the final version of the Pre to make such an unequivocal claim! Or whether he was going by Palm's unique-in-the-in industry and on the record claim that Standalone can be dependent on tower signals -- something every other GPS expert rejects.

    I don't know why you are getting so upset and flustered. I was pointing to prior claims by Palm on this very subject of Standalone that we all now know were incorrect.

    Palm is the only company on the planet to advertise as standalone GPS units that are in fact tied to towers for GPS in all modes.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by frantid View Post
    DPalm Pre gets HTML5 Google Maps app*|*

    I think you can assume, it is real satellite gps - not aGPS, and not reliant on Sprint network. .
    An ENTIRELY different issue. Standalone GPS refers to getting location from satellites only, as opposed to aGPS which is satellites and carrier dependent information like accurate time, ephemeris, alamanc etc from a tower plus satellites..

    There are a million things a smart device can do with the location information, from tagging your photos with coordinates, to full blown nav programs and scores of things in between. There are a zillion free GPS apps for Windows mobile, iphone, symbian etc.
  19. #19  
    Yes, google maps uses a data connection for maps. It can use Standalone GPS, aGPS or triangulation as a reference. Just having google maps mobile running on the Pre is not an indication of anything. I am aware of the various uses of location "aware" software. I am referring to just getting the location. In the video, there is not the typical light blue circle google mobile maps uses to indicate lack of a gps based fix.

    If being outside of cdma is a indicator for you, then the demo being at MWC in Europe certainly satisfies that one. I think aGPS can certainly work outside of CDMA, so I'm not sure if non-CDMA is a true test of GPS vs aGPS. But you seem to have knowledge of it's importance, I do not.

    As far as time, all GPS systems require accurate time to determine a fix. Standalone and aGPS systems all have clocks inside them. I see no difference in a clock inside a phone or a clock inside a Garmin nuvi, as most phones can tell time without using the network. Having an accurate initial clock helps in determining the location, mostly in the speed of obtaining an initial estimate of location. Since the satellite signal also includes time information, it is not required. You are absolutely right about almanac and ephemeris information.

    Since the Omap processor is capable of both aGPS and standalone GPS, in the end it will be how Palm implements it that determines the characterization. I had no idea of Palm's previous mis-steps in dealing with GPS. However, if the previous Palm "standalone" gps could not work outside of CDMA - I take it as a good sign that the Pre works at MWC. It is a step in the right direction from the previous doesn't work in Europe version and hopefully means they got it right this time.

    yes, I'm a half-full glass person
    French Pre3, UK Pre2, US Veer, German gsm Pre, 680, garmin ique 3600 & still have my working palm pilot 1000 with the 1 Mb adapter

    Please remove UberCalendar and google sync behavior patches prior to system updates.
    patch Google calendar sync behavior for 2.x.x and TouchPad (Oauth2 and advanced sync requirements enabled)
    Preference guide for MetaView's UberCalendar patch
  20. #20  
    I'd love to reply to all of that... however, typing it out on the Treo Kb isn't something Id be willing to do when I know aero is feverishly pounding away a response. Needless to say, there are some holes in your reasoning, which is ok since you weren't really aware of the 800w issue. Quartz clocks are cheap... its a shame they didn't put one in the 800
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