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  1.    #21  
    Just getting back to basics and not caring too much over aGPS or whatever, i want the Pre, when powered on, to be able to act like a Garmin unit. I'll test it and such when it comes out but was basically looking to see if this is how Sprint Nav worked.

    Part of me thinks its just common sense that if the program is caching pages to perform its thing, then it must be in a sprint area to do so or in other words use Sprint Navigation.

    But to get around this, one has to download a garmin, tomtom, or similar map app that can use the device's gps and if it can.. I guess the conflict comes down to whether this will be the case or not because Sprint wants you to use theirs..but..i'm not sure why they care if you have to have an Everything plan and you're ALREADY PAYING for sprint nav..
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by frantid View Post
    If being outside of cdma is a indicator for you, then the demo being at MWC in Europe certainly satisfies that one. I think aGPS can certainly work outside of CDMA, so I'm not sure if non-CDMA is a true test of GPS vs aGPS. But you seem to have knowledge of it's importance, I do not.
    aGPS only will not work out of CDMA on a CDMA phone. On a GSM phone at MWC (which occurred in GSM coverage) working GPS doesn't not guarantee standalone GPS function because that could have had a aGPS requirement too!

    Teh question is will the GSM version work here for GPS and will the CDMA version work in Europe for GPS, this is how you woudl determine if it had standalone (like Treo Pro and HTC Touch pro will work anywhere despite theri phone band)

    Quote Originally Posted by frantid View Post
    As far as time, all GPS systems require accurate time to determine a fix. Standalone and aGPS systems all have clocks inside them.
    No.The last Sprint phone for Palm actually released, the Treo 800w standalone GPS was specifically broken by forcing a an aGPS requirement called accurate time assistance. In other words the standalone GPS should have worked but in fact 800w cannot even initiate GSP without first getting the atomic time from a tower! (Ironically the tower is just relaying the time from a satelite, something standalone GPS gets from satellites alone as well.)

    This meant the device was advertised as having total independence from towers (standalone or autonomous GPS), but of its several agPS modes, one was ALWAYS required, for the sole reason that it could not acquire time from satellites.

    I did not pull the issue of accurate time out of the air..the very last Sprint Palm phone to be released had busted Standalone for that very reason

    Quote Originally Posted by frantid View Post
    Since the satellite signal also includes time information, it is not required.
    Not required, but Palm is the only company to require time information from Towers to even start any and every mode of GPS in the very last model it sold on Sprint while it claimed it was "standalone."

    Palms legal position is that a tower requirement can exist on a product advertised as having "Standalone GPS". The fact that you I and no one else ,including experts, agree is another thing.

    I am a half glass full person too. I hope they do implement both aGPS and Standalone, it is a strong value.,
  3. #23  
    cardfan,

    We don't know yet. What I do find promising is that the development handbook states there are available api calls for location. Also the google demonstration, means the gps is not locked to the carrier in the GSM version. Hopefully, this carries over to the Sprint version and TomTom, Garmin will write an app that will work or google will come up with something in their html 5 implementation that allows for local offline map storage.
    French Pre3, UK Pre2, US Veer, German gsm Pre, 680, garmin ique 3600 & still have my working palm pilot 1000 with the 1 Mb adapter

    Please remove UberCalendar and google sync behavior patches prior to system updates.
    patch Google calendar sync behavior for 2.x.x and TouchPad (Oauth2 and advanced sync requirements enabled)
    Preference guide for MetaView's UberCalendar patch
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post

    I am a half glass full person too. I hope they do implement both aGPS and Standalone, it is a strong value.,
    I'm with you. Sounds like a coding shortcut on the 800w, too bad.
    French Pre3, UK Pre2, US Veer, German gsm Pre, 680, garmin ique 3600 & still have my working palm pilot 1000 with the 1 Mb adapter

    Please remove UberCalendar and google sync behavior patches prior to system updates.
    patch Google calendar sync behavior for 2.x.x and TouchPad (Oauth2 and advanced sync requirements enabled)
    Preference guide for MetaView's UberCalendar patch
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    But to get around this, one has to download a garmin, tomtom, or similar map app that can use the device's gps and if it can.. I guess the conflict comes down to whether this will be the case or not because Sprint wants you to use theirs..but..i'm not sure why they care if you have to have an Everything plan and you're ALREADY PAYING for sprint nav..
    Good points. But keep in mind that GPS data available to programs adn the user can be used for hundreds of things that don't involved paid programs.

    I gps tagged my grandparents and great grandparents graves and former homes in Europe using my kids Sprint HTC touch, something I could do with my 800w

    On full feldged nav programs, two big makers Garmin (second largest int eh workd) and Naviogon (thrid largest) currently sell for win mobile. But that takes into account:
    a) 10 million or so WM phones when they started
    b) 50 million windows mobile phones today
    c) and the fact that they long had software since wince (which navigon still uses as its shell in its dedicated devices)

    For Palm Pre I don't suppose we will see 10 million in the next 12 months, so there is a lower developer interest.

    But I do think we will se a bunch of nifty free and inexpense GPS apps for Pre come onstream at release and soon.
  6. Modular's Avatar
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    #26  
    I have not taken it out of the country to test, but I have received a Standalone GPS fix in flight mode and on an unactivated device.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Modular View Post
    I have not taken it out of the country to test, but I have received a Standalone GPS fix in flight mode and on an unactivated device.
    Modular. Thanks. Sadly the Treo 800w did that in the tests as well. that was the mistake the Palm engineers made in the 800w test. Tht is why they claimed for a month that no tower contact was necessary to start GPS and then found it absolutly failed without a tower.

    Flight mode on 800w allowed contact with sprint towers for accurate time assist, even on unactivated device. I can full rtn clear and get time on an 800w.

    Activation didn't matter. for exampled an inactivated sprint phone will get time from a tower.

    If you are with Palm, why don't you ask the 800w team guys who worked hard on the 800w to no avail, because that exact test caused a false positive.

    Again I am not saying standalone is not present, just that exact test can false positive for reasons the 800w team at Palm was surprised to learn as well.

    The valid test, which they finally did was hard reset in area of absolutely zero cdma in the unit frequency bands present. They could get no fix even after 8 hours. As you know the 800w device was advertised as standalone. It was the third listed feature: Standalone and aGPS. When I first called Palm support they assured me it would work worldwide. They changed the footnotes on that in September after proper tests and yet after advertising it a standalone for eight weeks prior.
    Last edited by aero; 02/22/2009 at 01:11 PM.
  8. Modular's Avatar
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    #28  
    Aero, thanks. I was unaware of the Standalone problem on the 800w. I'll find out if the proper tests are being done to determine if Standalone would work internationally on the Pre CDMA device.
  9. Padre's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Modular View Post
    Aero, thanks. I was unaware of the Standalone problem on the 800w. I'll find out if the proper tests are being done to determine if Standalone would work internationally on the Pre CDMA device.

    It's nice to see something constructive come from a thread others found to be of a 'bickering' nature.
  10. #30  
    Wait sorry, so will I have to connect to the internet to get GPS? Or does it work like a stand alone in car unit?
    Treo 650p --> Treo 755p --> Pre
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Modular View Post
    Aero, thanks. I was unaware of the Standalone problem on the 800w. I'll find out if the proper tests are being done to determine if Standalone would work internationally on the Pre CDMA device.
    Thank you very much. I will send you some of the observations and tests I did on other units in a Private Message tomorrow.

    For anyone follwoing this here, Standalone GPS it is not as important on Pre as it is one windows mobile devices for the reasons that on Windows mobile, several full featured top of the line navigation programs exist, for windows mobile devices, including Navigon and TomTom.

    This is less of an issue with Pre as no such independent loadable programs exist on webOS (yet) and proably for the next year the only alternative for full nav is sprints service which already requires a sprint signal to start.
    So certainly good agps implementation alone will be adequate for most users for that need.

    But one should keep in mind though that we can quickly expect to see many smaller, interesting, fun and useful GPS utilizing programs and exploits by third parties for the the Pre, many of them free and many useful off network. For example being able to tag photos with GPS coordinates,etc.

    Cloud usage, cloud exploitation is exciting, but cloud dependence is another matter and can be limiting. If you don't see a need for the deivce's functions to work off network, you may ask yourself why WiFi has become mandatory on serious devices over the years.

    So I don't think it is a deal killer for most if it doesn't have standalone GPS along with aGPS, but their is a strong utility for some, and some utility in fact for all, and more clarity on features the better.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Walter E Kurtz View Post
    Wait sorry, so will I have to connect to the internet to get GPS? Or does it work like a stand alone in car unit?
    We are working to find that out when it comes to location, whcih can be used for scores of uses, from geocacheing, to full out navigation.

    Obviously at this early point, unlike established operating systems, like windows mobile*, no off the shelf installable full navigation programs exists for WebOS so you would need a Sprint signal anyway to get its service (Sprintnav/telnave) in order to use full navigation.

    If you want full navigation on your smartphone absent Sprint signal,and this is a deal or no deal issue for you, you would want a WMobile device with standalone GPS like HTC Touch Pro or Palm Treo Pro.

    * 50 million smartphones use windows mobile that was a user base creates a big market. Also a number of major full scale Navigation Device makers use WinCE as their OS (it is in background so you don't see it) so it was very easy for them to port to Windows mobile in the first place with minimal development costs.
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