Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 30 of 30
  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by vga4life View Post
    Palm - and I mean this in the best possible way - doesn't care about legacy PalmOS users. There aren't enough of them left to make the Pre a success on their own, and they don't want to bring the crappy (by 2009 standards) UI polish of PalmOS to a wide audience with this phone.

    Palm is going after disillusioned iPhone, Blackberry, S60, and Windows Mobile users as well as texter/media/feature-phone users who might have considered those platforms.

    What could sink the Pre (and Palm) is one or more of the following:
    • The Pre is late. This phone needs to be shipping in quantity by July.
    • The Pre or its required Sprint plan is too expensive when it finally ships. $299 with a 2 year contract is too expensive. $69/month (per line, pre-tax) plans are too expensive. $199/$50 for a minimal plan (400 minutes, unlimited sms, unlimited data) would be a punch in the gut for Apple and AT&Tingular in this economy.
    • The Pre is buggy when it ships. Palm cannot survive a Blackberry Storm debacle.
    • The GSM (EMEA/ROW) version launches too late or Palm repeats Apple's arrogance in plan pricing/requirements. The iPhone's plans are expensive in the US; they are breathtakingly exorbitant in Europe - and adoption has suffered accordingly.
    The points you make are reasonable.

    They are not in contravention of what I'm saying though -- which is that at little incremental cost or effort, Palm could have done much to bring the existing POS user base to the Pre at launch -- when their enthusiasim will be most needed and valuable.

    Unfortunately the truth is, with their announcement of the Pre, Palm in effect declared themselves actively hostile to the POS. (or as I've said previously, that they would not be happy until the mere mention of it was expunged from Wikipedia).

    Palm OS developers -- many small companies that had loyally been developers for the increasing small ecosystem that is the POS, were eviserated overnight.

    Palm essentially screamed: "a bad word !!" (Pre sanitized for your safety) at their legacy developer community. The announcement that the Pre would be without ANY POS compatibility effectively killed many of these small developers. Competing in the already diminished Garnet universe while attempting to survive in a world of global economic despair, Palm delivered what may well be the final blow to them by telling their customers that Garnet is a dead end -- but this new "spectacular" OS is still months way.

    Even if they want to create for the new OS, many won't have the resources to wait until this new operating environment takes off.

    For them the emulator issue is almost entirely irrelevant.

    As others have rightly observed, in any event relatively few would have bought NEW versions of POS applications to use on the Pre -- when that would require an emulator to work at all, and they would likely not work as well as natively written apps.

    My point in raising this issue here is that by not cooperating with developers like StyleTap that might want to write an emulator, Palm is also effectively saying: "a bad word !!" to its loyal users -- folks that may well have a library of essential apps unavailable at launch -- or perhaps even a year or more at least.

    By being so antagonistic to its own legacy, Palm ironically, is potentially doing great damage to itself.

    Given the cataclystmic economic straits that the world has been left in by (the tooth fairy), Palm can ill afford to not have every possible Pre sold. The existing community of Palm loyalists were and are a resource that they should have more sensitively courted -- at little cost.

    I say all that with regret -- not anger. I hope the Pre is a success.
    Last edited by BARYE; 02/17/2009 at 08:07 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    They are not in contravention of what I'm saying though -- which is that at little incremental cost or effort, Palm could have done much to bring the existing POS user base to the Pre at launch -- when their enthusiasim will be most needed and valuable.
    And what I'm saying is that PalmOS emulation would *subtract* value from the Pre from a marketing perspective.

    I've been a PalmOS user since I bought a USRobotics Pilot 5000 in 1996 and still use a Centro (bought on launch day) today. In 1996, PalmOS was elegant and well suited to the needs and hardware of the time. In 2009, PalmOS Garnet is Frankenstein's monster - mostly functional, demonstrating flashes of real UI brilliance, but fundamentally an ugly pile of hacked-up and bolted-together parts. Palm will repel prospective buyers if they make PalmOS even part of their pitch - if it ever comes to the Pre it will be a downloadable 3rd-party emulator.

    Unfortunately the truth is, with their announcement of the Pre, Palm in effect declared themselves actively hostile to the POS. (or as I've said previously, that they would not be happy until the mere mention of it was expunged from Wikipedia).
    Palm has to get beyond Garnet. Again, it's Frankenstein's monster.

    Palm OS developers -- many small companies that had loyally been developers for the increasing small ecosystem that is the POS, were eviserated overnight.
    No. They were slowly bled to death over a period of years while Palm flailed in its OS strategy. The writing has been on the wall for the last 2 years - it was always obvious that PalmOS had nowhere to go from the Centro.

    Palm essentially screamed: "a bad word !!" (Pre sanitized for your safety) at their legacy developer community. The announcement that the Pre would be without ANY POS compatibility effectively killed many of these small developers. Competing in the already diminished Garnet universe while attempting to survive in a world of global economic despair, Palm delivered what may well be the final blow to them by telling their customers that Garnet is a dead end -- but this new "specatular" OS is still months way.
    Garnet is a dead end. That's been obvious for much more than 2 years. Garnet never had the horsepower and programming interfaces to create slick, media-rich applications like the iPhone - it couldn't even beat Windows Mobile in its later incarnations.

    I have an extensive library of paid-for PalmOS software, but the reality is it is almost all obsolete - they were mostly databases, basically, and the internet replaced them.

    The only 3rd-party apps I use on my Centro are Chatteremail and Scrabble. Everything else is covered by built-in apps that will all have (presumably better) replacements on the Pre - and it's known that the Pre will have IMAP IDLE support covering my need for Chatter.

    Even if they want to create for the new OS, many won't have the resources to wait until this new operating environment takes off.
    That's business. Anyone paying attention diversified into WinMo, S60, J2ME/BREW, etc. long ago. Those that didn't, get left behind.

    For them the emulator issue is almost entirely irrelevant.

    As others have rightly observed, in any event relatively few would have bought NEW versions of POS applications to use on the Pre -- when that would require an emulator to work at all, and they would likely not work as well as natively written apps.
    Yep. Palm is right to promote the better experience by making a clean break. I wouldn't be surprised to see Access port their Garnet VM to the Pre (if StyleTap doesn't) but Palm would be stupid to encourage anyone - especially developers - to cling to the PalmOS.

    My point in raising this issue here is that by not cooperating with developers like StyleTap that might want to write an emulator, Palm is also effectively saying: "a bad word !!" to its loyal users -- folks that may well have a library of essential apps unavailable at launch -- or perhaps even a year or more at least.
    Or maybe, Palm sees more value in spending energy getting the Pre out the door with high-quality built-in software and polished interfaces than in spending energy catering to the a backward-looking developer like StyleTap.

    By being so antagonistic to its own legacy, Palm ironically, is potentially doing great damage to itself.
    Nope. Palm only gets one bite at the apple for product reviews. They don't want Walt Mossberg or any other high-profile user getting bitten by an unpolished experience. They don't want a paragraph describing or god forbid a screenshot showing an emulated PalmOS app.

    Apple followed the same playbook with the iPhone too - remember there was no real SDK or 3rd-party apps when it came out. They played the same "web apps" dodge (less well than Palm, I might add - Palm is smart to hook up with Adobe for Flash 10 support) in order to buy engineering time to get the built-in package out the door with an appropriate level of quality.

    Given the cataclystmic economic straits that the world has been left in by (the tooth fairy), Palm can ill afford to not have every possible Pre sold. The existing community of Palm loyalists were and are a resource that they should have more sensitively courted -- at little cost.
    I'm a Palm loyalist, too. I might stick with my Centro for another 2 years - but it will be because Sprint wants to jack up my monthly rates to get the Pre and because Garnet is good enough, enough of the time. It surely won't be because I'll miss the Palm OS on the Pre.

    I say all that with regret -- not anger. I hope the Pre is a success.
    Buck up, little camper. Nothing lasts forever, especially not software.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    They are not in contravention of what I'm saying though -- which is that at little incremental cost or effort, Palm could have done much to bring the existing POS user base to the Pre at launch -- when their enthusiasim will be most needed and valuable.
    Define 'little incremental cost or effort'. How much per device would they have to pay to Access? Since we don't have access to webOS, how much effort would then be involved to make POS work seamlessly through it? Should we assume you're talking about a fully functional emulator that can still sync to the Palm Desktop (and associated plugins) and then share that information with webOS PIM applications?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #24  
    I had to put my dog to sleep late last year. I loved that dog, but she was old and crippled and needed to be euthanized. RIP old friend.
    RIP Palm OS.
    If you found my post useful then please sign up for a Dropbox Account, I could use the extra 250mb of storage.

    HOW TO: Zip/Unzip via Pre/Pixi using Terminal
    HOW TO: Modify DTMF audio (webOS 1.4.5 or earlier)
    Palm Pre wallpapers
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Define 'little incremental cost or effort'. How much per device would they have to pay to Access? Since we don't have access to webOS, how much effort would then be involved to make POS work seamlessly through it? Should we assume you're talking about a fully functional emulator that can still sync to the Palm Desktop (and associated plugins) and then share that information with webOS PIM applications?
    StyleTap has expressed the willingness and capability to write an emulator (since Palm won't).

    StyleTap appparently believes that a market would exist sufficient to make the effort profitable -- profitable even with the costs incurred in developing, marketing, and distributing the emulator -- as well as any added cost associated with royalties demanded by Access.

    There would, by its nature, likely be a narrow window when an emulator market would be large enough for it to be profitable. Demand would clearly be strongest in the early days of the WebOS's introduction.

    Over time inevitably this market would decline as users find substitutes for required software -- or they become dissillusioned and move eleswhere.

    It is both in our, StyleTap's, and Palm's interest that this functionality be available at launch.

    StyleTap has asked nothing of Palm to write a Garnet emulator (which they've done previously for other operating systems) except some modest cooperation in getting access to WebOS APIs.

    Palm has in effect spit in their face.

    Clearly a seamlessly executed emulator would at the minimum enable local sync to the legacy desktop contact data.

    Others users will have specific applications that they depend on -- some of which are niche in nature, and are unlikely to be recreated any time soon for the new OS.

    An emulator would provide a soft transition to this new platform -- for customers that Palm should be seducing, not spitting on.
    Last edited by BARYE; 02/18/2009 at 04:06 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. Gerorne's Avatar
    Posts
    506 Posts
    Global Posts
    553 Global Posts
    #26  
    Style tap said it would theoretically be possible, and they would like to know how much interest there is. Unless you have more recent info than this article:

    StyleTap Considering Creating a Palm OS Emulator for webOS

    Your first claim is slightly exaggerated, but probable, but your second one just not true. Wanting to know how much interest is out there, is very different from believing there is a large enough market to be profitable.
    Vx --> M515 --> T|T3 --> T|T5
    --> Treo 650 --> Centro --> Dinc

    Smart Jones - a smartphone webcomic
  7. #27  
    Wow...a lot of words, and yet you managed to completely dodge answering the questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    StyleTap has expressed the willingness and capability to write an emulator (since Palm won't).
    Theoretically. ...assuming that they can have the planets align just right.
    StyleTap appparently believes that a market would exist sufficient to make the effort profitable -- profitable even with the costs incurred in developing, marketing, and distributing the emulator -- as well as any added cost associated with royalties demanded by Access.
    Really? You read a lot into soliciting interest in a theoretical product. Also, I was referring to Palm including an emulator. Styletap doesn't pay any royalties or license any technology from Palm or Access. It'll be interesting to see if Access pursues any action if they come out with an iPhone app. Lots of potential emulator running devices combined with potential losses from POS licensing revenue can make for a very bad combo.
    There would, by its nature, likely be a narrow window when an emulator market would be large enough for it to be profitable. Demand would clearly be strongest in the early days of the WebOS's introduction.
    Based on??
    Over time inevitably this market would decline as users find substitutes for required software -- or they become dissillusioned and move eleswhere.

    It is both in our, StyleTap's, and Palm's interest that this functionality be available at launch.
    Why? Much as I am invested in POS apps, I am not averse to there possibly being better options on the horizon.
    StyleTap has asked nothing of Palm to write a Garnet emulator (which they've done previously for other operating systems) except some modest cooperation in getting access to WebOS APIs.
    No, they're saying that they want C/C++ APIs which may or may not exist.
    Palm has in effect spit in their face.
    You're being a tad melodramatic.
    Clearly a seamlessly executed emulator would at the minimum enable local sync to the legacy desktop contact data.
    And does the existing emulator have this capability? I'll answer that for you. No. Desktop conduits are not supported. That's exactly my point that you chose to ignore. Things are not as simple or easy as you'd like to think.
    Others users will have specific applications that they depend on -- some of which are niche in nature, and are unlikely to be recreated any time soon for the new OS.
    And if there's significant enough niche to justify emulator development, it could easily follow that there's a significant enough niche for a developer to develop for a more modern platform.
    An emulator would provide a soft transition to this new platform -- for customers that Palm should be seducing, not spitting on.
    Funny. I don't feel any wetness.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #28  
    All right ... humor me ... what would you hard-core PalmOS users pay for an emulator -- $15, $30, $45, $60, $99?

    Even if you're willing to pay $60, I'm not convinced that Styletap or anyone could make a profit on it. Barye mentions profitability even with costs "developing, marketing, and distributing the emulator". How about supporting? That could be the largest cost. Emulators aren't easy to write. It's even harder for them to emulate *everything* -- legacy sync, hardware that's not in the current device (IR), 1000's of existing apps ... etc., etc. First support call eliminates most of your profit. Two or three incidents and you're in the hole.

    Is $60 multiplied by a few hundred users going to be profitable? Yes, I said a few hundred. I may be naive, but I can't imagine thousands of people buying an emulator, when they could potentially get new webOS apps to replace their 4-6 key PalmOS apps for maybe the same amount of cash.
    Sprint Treo 755p
  9. #29  
    I moved to WM from POS.
    Never saw a need for Stytap.
    The few apps I tried it with were not fully functional in the Emulated state.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by pilot1000 View Post
    All right ... humor me ... what would you hard-core PalmOS users pay for an emulator -- $15, $30, $45, $60, $99?
    Nothing. That's my point. I've been a PalmOS user for about 10 years. Used WinCE before that. PalmOS has been adequate for what I've been doing. If something better for my uses comes along, I'd jettison it in a heartbeat. My only 'killer app' that's still keeping me on POS is Pocket Quicken. But that's only because I already have it paid for. It's only utility is that it keeps in sync with my desktop finance app, so I can enter debit card transactions on the go and have them automatically show up on the desktop. It would be useless to me even with StyleTap because the conduit functionality wouldn't be there.
    Even if you're willing to pay $60, I'm not convinced that Styletap or anyone could make a profit on it. Barye mentions profitability even with costs "developing, marketing, and distributing the emulator". How about supporting? That could be the largest cost. Emulators aren't easy to write. It's even harder for them to emulate *everything* -- legacy sync, hardware that's not in the current device (IR), 1000's of existing apps ... etc., etc.
    Assuming by 'harder' you mean practically infeasible, I'm in complete agreement.
    First support call eliminates most of your profit. Two or three incidents and you're in the hole.

    Is $60 multiplied by a few hundred users going to be profitable? Yes, I said a few hundred. I may be naive, but I can't imagine thousands of people buying an emulator, when they could potentially get new webOS apps to replace their 4-6 key PalmOS apps for maybe the same amount of cash.
    Exactly.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions