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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Pooh View Post
    I have found that with rubberbanding and finger flick scrolling, the d-pad quickly becomes antiquated. I don't think my post will ever convince anyone differently, but hey everyone has a different opinion.
    Sure everyone has their opinion, but dismissing an older method as "antiquated" is a bad as resisting a new method just because it's different.

    Anyone who works with their hands for a living (i.e. a musician) can tell you the importance of touch/feel in repetitive tasks and how it allows actions to become second nature. If you can't see that there are advantages to both, then as you said...
  2. #42  
    I think holding the phone and gesturing with one hand is not going to be the most convenient thing in the world outside of some basic flicks. Most people I see with iphones and other multi-touch phones are using two hands to navigate. One to hold and the other to navigate.

    I think I talked about the loss of the d-pad on the intro day. It did seem to take a backseat to the lack of a card slot and desktop sync. As much as I like this phone and will probably buy it, I hate how it seems they've caved to copying the iphone with abandoning certain basic features that people have come to rely on with treo phones. The Storm and Touch didn't lose the card slot or ability to desktop sync. They lose the card slot and only give you 8gigs when flash memory is getting cheaper and cheaper. iPhone already has 16gb, and I'm sure the next one will have 32gb. You're this late in the game with a new device, why not one up and put 16gb on there especially if you're limiting us without a card slot.

    For one handed use I think the d-pad is very efficient. Why would you not put a d-pad where you have the center button? Nobody else does, so why should I? Because nobody else does. It was your bread and butter for one handed navigation for so long. Why limit yourself to gestures just because the phone is touch based? I am quicker with a stylus and the d-pad than any single type of input. I'm sure I'll adjust to using my finger instead of a stylus, but losing the d-pad to gestures, some of which require two fingers? I think the combination of a d-pad with the touch interface would make other companies make better use of their center buttons in future models. Why not lead in the actual phone design instead of follow.

    And how about the one person's suggestion to give buttons in the gesture area zune like touch. They could be flush with the face, but still be programmed as one touch buttons for apps, bookmarks or what not. You could gesture over them, but still press them for immediate access.

    I just hope I can apply one touch buttons to the thumb board when it's open. I have quite a few one touch keys including the web, google, a few phone numbers, clock (since I use the alarm religously), backup, camera, and google maps. I highly doubt I'll use the same amount of keystrokes or gestures to get to programs or numbers I have on one touch.

    At least they finally accomplished the one thing they've never been able to do. Make a thin device, and no the Foleo doesn't count.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Pooh View Post
    I have found that with rubberbanding and finger flick scrolling, the d-pad quickly becomes antiquated. I don't think my post will ever convince anyone differently, but hey everyone has a different opinion.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I don't agree, I prefer the D-Pad and I use both devices every day.

    You prefer up, down, left, right to the full 360 degree control of a trackball?
  4. machx's Avatar
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    #44  
    Treo users, meet 2009
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    I think holding the phone and gesturing with one hand is not going to be the most convenient thing in the world outside of some basic flicks. Most people I see with iphones and other multi-touch phones are using two hands to navigate. One to hold and the other to navigate.

    I think I talked about the loss of the d-pad on the intro day. It did seem to take a backseat to the lack of a card slot and desktop sync. As much as I like this phone and will probably buy it, I hate how it seems they've caved to copying the iphone with abandoning certain basic features that people have come to rely on with treo phones. The Storm and Touch didn't lose the card slot or ability to desktop sync. They lose the card slot and only give you 8gigs when flash memory is getting cheaper and cheaper. iPhone already has 16gb, and I'm sure the next one will have 32gb. You're this late in the game with a new device, why not one up and put 16gb on there especially if you're limiting us without a card slot.

    For one handed use I think the d-pad is very efficient. Why would you not put a d-pad where you have the center button? Nobody else does, so why should I? Because nobody else does. It was your bread and butter for one handed navigation for so long. Why limit yourself to gestures just because the phone is touch based? I am quicker with a stylus and the d-pad than any single type of input. I'm sure I'll adjust to using my finger instead of a stylus, but losing the d-pad to gestures, some of which require two fingers? I think the combination of a d-pad with the touch interface would make other companies make better use of their center buttons in future models. Why not lead in the actual phone design instead of follow.

    And how about the one person's suggestion to give buttons in the gesture area zune like touch. They could be flush with the face, but still be programmed as one touch buttons for apps, bookmarks or what not. You could gesture over them, but still press them for immediate access.

    I just hope I can apply one touch buttons to the thumb board when it's open. I have quite a few one touch keys including the web, google, a few phone numbers, clock (since I use the alarm religously), backup, camera, and google maps. I highly doubt I'll use the same amount of keystrokes or gestures to get to programs or numbers I have on one touch.

    At least they finally accomplished the one thing they've never been able to do. Make a thin device, and no the Foleo doesn't count.
    I could not agree with your statement anymore! One hand navigation is unmatched in my view. I can't wait to try out the Pre but using one finger (the so-called other free hand) to move several pages, cards, etc. simply does not seem that appealing after a while. I'm not stuck on past Treo functions (nav-button). I just favor practical methods.
  6. #46  
    are you using your trackball like a mouse? no. you're going from field to field, across or up/down a page and so on. With a trackball you can easily over or under shoot your mark. The d-pad is distinct key presses. If I know I need to go ahead five characters or three fields, I can do it with my eyes closed. You can't do that with a trackball. I also used an 8830 for quite awhile, and I prefer the d-pad.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    You prefer up, down, left, right to the full 360 degree control of a trackball?
    and not that I condone using your phone while driving, isn't it easier when you have pre-programmed one touch buttons along with simple one handed operation instead of possible two handed use or more complicated one handed gestures along with more steps to do the same function? Especially when I'm holding it up in line with the top of the wheel so my eyes are a little more keyed in on the road instead of having the phone sitting in a dock that takes my focus off the road more (though freeing up one hand).

    Speaking of which, has there been any mention of voice activated dialing? Now that would be intuitive. This way I can save my gestures for the jerks on the road.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by crogs571 View Post
    are you using your trackball like a mouse? no. you're going from field to field, across or up/down a page and so on. With a trackball you can easily over or under shoot your mark. The d-pad is distinct key presses. If I know I need to go ahead five characters or three fields, I can do it with my eyes closed. You can't do that with a trackball. I also used an 8830 for quite awhile, and I prefer the d-pad.


    and not that I condone using your phone while driving, isn't it easier when you have pre-programmed one touch buttons along with simple one handed operation instead of possible two handed use or more complicated one handed gestures along with more steps to do the same function? Especially when I'm holding it up in line with the top of the wheel so my eyes are a little more keyed in on the road instead of having the phone sitting in a dock that takes my focus off the road more (though freeing up one hand).

    Speaking of which, has there been any mention of voice activated dialing? Now that would be intuitive. This way I can save my gestures for the jerks on the road.

    Actually, yes- I do use the trackball like a mouse with the web browser. With the rest, it is nice to have the thumb on the trackball and just roll it around without having to physically remove the thumb and tap from top to buttom, left to right- but you do make a good point about going from field to field, although a trackball still does this to some extent.

    As far as one touch buttons, can't this still be done with the keypad on the Pre? Seems like the keys could still be set up as speed dials or shortcuts to programs, etc. like the old Treos. In addition, that black area at the bottom of the Pre where the standard virtual buttons pop up looks pretty neat.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    You prefer up, down, left, right to the full 360 degree control of a trackball?
    Yes I do, the BB doesn't have a mouse pointer.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    Actually, yes- I do use the trackball like a mouse with the web browser.
    Web browsing pretty much sucks on both PalmOS and the BB. That said, I much prefer a touch screen for selecting links to follow.
  10. ksom's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    As far as one touch buttons, can't this still be done with the keypad on the Pre? Seems like the keys could still be set up as speed dials or shortcuts to programs, etc. like the old Treos. In addition, that black area at the bottom of the Pre where the standard virtual buttons pop up looks pretty neat.
    This is an interesting idea. I can see using the '2', '4', '6' and '8' keys on the keypad as the 4 directions and space as select. Maybe add a little nub on the key to make finding them by touch easier.
    Palm V -> Treo 600 (lost) -> Treo 650 -> Centro -> Pre -> Photon
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    You prefer up, down, left, right to the full 360 degree control of a trackball?
    I too prefer the d-pad. I played with my brothers blackberry and I don't like how you have to keep on scrolling and scrolling and scrolling to go down but with the d-pad I like how you just hold and and it will scroll down for you. No need to keep on flicking.
  12. #52  
    ahh...never used it that way with the 8830.

    And I'd hate to assume you'd be able to do the one touch with the slide down thumboard. They've ditched so many tried and true things from the Treo line. Why should this be any different. I do like the virtual button idea, but I don't like it's at the expense of screen real estate when the tech is there to have buttons blend in seamlessly with the gesture area.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    Actually, yes- I do use the trackball like a mouse with the web browser. With the rest, it is nice to have the thumb on the trackball and just roll it around without having to physically remove the thumb and tap from top to buttom, left to right- but you do make a good point about going from field to field, although a trackball still does this to some extent.

    As far as one touch buttons, can't this still be done with the keypad on the Pre? Seems like the keys could still be set up as speed dials or shortcuts to programs, etc. like the old Treos. In addition, that black area at the bottom of the Pre where the standard virtual buttons pop up looks pretty neat.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Yes I do, the BB doesn't have a mouse pointer.

    Yes it does. Haven't you ever used the web browser on a BB?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by LupeValenz View Post
    I too prefer the d-pad. I played with my brothers blackberry and I don't like how you have to keep on scrolling and scrolling and scrolling to go down but with the d-pad I like how you just hold and and it will scroll down for you. No need to keep on flicking.
    There are shortcuts with a lot of the programs that get around this. For example, with the web browser, you can press the space bar and it scrolls down one screen length. Hold the space bar down, and it keeps scrolling. I'm sure they'll do something like this on the Pre.
  15. #55  
    The D-Pad is in the terms it allow one handed use of device. If pre is one handed use capable, it doesn't matters if there is a D-Pad or any other solution. And it seems to be one handed use capable.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    Yes it does. Haven't you ever used the web browser on a BB?
    I avoid my BB's web browser because it is so bad it actually makes the web browser on my Centro (blazer) look good in comparison. For following links the touch screen on PalmOS devices works much better anyway.

    I am not sure I really like the trackball on the BB. The side wheel on my older BBs seemed faster. Perhaps I am just an old fuddy duddy.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    The D-Pad is in the terms it allow one handed use of device. If pre is one handed use capable, it doesn't matters if there is a D-Pad or any other solution. And it seems to be one handed use capable.

    Are you saying the Pre appears to be designed for one-handed use and as such no D-pad is necessary?

    My only question/concern is how do you turn pages, cards with one hand comfortably? I assume we have to use the thumb (thats holding the phone)left/right swipe but that may not be as simple as I expect it to be. In my experience the D-pad addressed that concern and those who became use to it just would like it on the Pre too. I'm not passing judgement on the Pre, yet. We all have to just wait and see what the final product will look like then we can debate the pros/cons
  18. #58  
    I think it'll be one of those things I'll miss when it's gone
    Nokia American Idol Phone< Motorola RAZR<Nokia Flip Phone<Sidekick Slide<Palm Centro<HTC Snap

    Currently Enjoying: Palm Pixi
  19. #59  
    Without a doubt, based on the videos I have seen the Pre will not be a one handed device if you want to take advantage of all of it's features. The following is what I posted in another thread:

    "If the keyboard is pulled out on the Pre, will I be able to access all of the features of the Pre from the keyboard & the lower portion of the screen or will I have to hope my thumb will grows about 2 more inches?"

    If I want to activate what ever the swiping eables, I'll have to close the keyboard and or shift the device in my hand.

    Currently, there is very little I can do with one hand. (typing is one of them)

    I guess I could adjust but getting over not syncing Outlook and SpashID directly to my laptop is another issue.

    Good Luck
    iPhone 4S
    Former Treo & Storm Owner
    Cigar Lover
  20. #60  
    I'm bumping this thread after doing a search here, as it seems like this is the most active/recent thread discussing this topic. I've been thinking about this more and more lately, and I've come to the conclusion that I'll most likely be disappointed with the usability of the Pre.

    I've had Treos for a long, long while (300 -> 600 -> 650 -> 700p) and have occasionally tried switching over to Windows Mobile devices, always returning to the Palm OS. After the announcement of the Pre, I got itchy for a new gadget again, and decided to reactivate my Sprint Touch which had been sitting in its box for a long time. I figured I'd install some of the latest iPhone-esque apps as well as the Android OS.

    WM OS still leaves me unimpressed, but the Android OS is quite impressive. The web browser is great, but I'm still not convinced of the entire concept of showing a full website, instead of a mobile-optimized version. EVDO seems up to the task speed-wise, but until we have phones with 800-pixel-wide screens, you'll always need to zoom in and out, which gets tiresome. But the Sprint Touch w/Android seems like a pretty good preview of what the Pre will feel like in terms of usability. Like the Pre, there's no always-available keyboard, and the screen sizes seem to be pretty close. A lot of people here are arguing that the usability of the iPhone is great, so the Pre will be no worse. First, I don't necessarily agree that the *efficiency* of the iPhone is as good as the classic Palm OS (Garnet). As others have stated here, the always-available keyboard and numerous quick-launch buttons make for a more efficient UI. But because the Pre's screen is smaller than the iPhone's, you're also going to end up mis-hitting things on the screen more often than with an iPhone (and it's not that uncommon with an iPhone either), which is something that I frustratingly deal with regularly with the Sprint Touch w/Android.

    Later today I plan on re-deactivating my Sprint Touch and switching back to the Treo 700p. It was fun to play with Android, but the day-to-day usability/efficiency compared to Garnet just isn't there.

    I really think Palm has made a mistake with the Pre. I think they should have stuck with the concept of the keyboard/D-pad as primary input and the touchscreen as input for situations where it made more sense (e.g., games). I think they should have started with something like the Treo Pro design, and made the screen a bit taller (see the Benq P50 as what I have in mind: BenQ P50 pictures, official photos)

    Also, I see multitouch as more of a gimmick than anything on the iPhone, and I think that multitouch will be even less useful/usable on the Pre due to its smaller screen.

    I'm not sure where I'll end up. I can't see myself sticking with the outdated 700p for much longer. I may end up getting a Pre, despite my criticisms, simply because it, at least, still has a physical keyboard. Or I may end up with an iPhone, which at least made up its mind which way to go (all touchscreen), so you have a larger touchscreen which will make selecting things on-screen less error-prone.

    It's also possible that we could see an Android phone in something like a classic Treo form-factor (in fact, I imagine that it should be fairly easy for someone to get it up and running on the Treo Pro), which could give us the always-available keyboard and D-Pad combined with a modern mobile OS.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
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