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  1. tirk's Avatar
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    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    You can either have a screen good for fingers (capacitive) or one good for stylus (resistive). If you want it to be good for both you'll be needing two screens.
    Have you tried screen on the HTC Touch HD? Seems more than acceptable for either finger or stylus to me.
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jochen K. View Post
    What is modern about not giving customers the choice between OTA and card based file handling as the occasion requires?
    I dunno. Perhaps the fact that the (arguably) most modern OS - iPhone - has forgone that choice to no detriment to either their bottom line or the health of the most explosive mobile development community in years? Those are two things - a healthy bottom line and a resurgent development community - Palm would love to have. Why not follow then surpass the current market leader?

    What is modern about not giving customers the choice between using their fingers or a stylus - whether they always want to use one method or again choose as the occasion requires?
    Because there are NO modern styli-based mobile OS. NONE. Android, WebOS, iPhone...all moving toward simpler, touchable interfaces. Even the ancient relics - Windows Mobile and Blackberry - are getting simpler, and each OSes best seller is currently a touchscreen device.

    And finally - and most importantly: what is modern about telling the millions of folks who once bought Palm OS devices "Either buy - and exclusively use - the shiny new programs (which may eventually appear in numbers) for our shiny new device, or GET LOST"?
    Doesn't the old rule of thumb which is often quoted by German trade folks "it takes about as much effort and money to acquire one new customer as it does to keep ten customers that you already have" not apply to the US of A?
    Everyone else has nabbed this already, but Palm lost so many customers BECAUSE they were so focused on tweaking older form factors and their ancient OS. Any continued effort to follow that path would be suicide.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Palm lost so many customers BECAUSE they were so focused on tweaking older form factors and their ancient OS. Any continued effort to follow that path would be suicide.
    So, they've decided to lose customers because their "modern" OS won't:

    1) offer more data than 7.5GB onboard (but the "ancient" iPhone does)

    2) allow expansion (but the "ancient" Treo, RAZR and nearly every other phone released over the past few years does)

    3) run an emulator that preserves simple accessibility to major investments in PalmOS software people have had for some 13 years (but Windoze Mobile sure has Styletap, as well as REAL Grafitti)...

    I can see forging a new path, but if you throw away the baby with the bathwater you're gonna end up with an empty tub and angry people...

    The fact the Pre maxxes out at 1/4th the capacity of the long-in-the-tooth iPhone ought to be disturbing to anyone expecting to use it for the 2-years of a new contract.

    You can fix a lot of things with software, but underspec'd memory is pretty insurmountable. The Pre is supposed to be aimed at multimedia lovers - WTF are you gonna do when it has less available memory for ALL its uses than a years-old iPod Nano?
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty J View Post
    Another use of a memory card slot is to swap in a card from a good camera to send the photos as email attachments.
    it would be disappointing to lose this capability.
    Yeah, when Palm switched from SD to miniSD (and then MicroSD) it became a much larger deal to swap in and send pics on the fly. But I could still do it. Now I guess Pre users "must" use the Palm's camera OR_ELSE. Palm keeps removing functionality of their devices and wonders why they aren't selling like hotcakes...
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  5. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad View Post
    So, they've decided to lose customers because their "modern" OS won't:

    3) run an emulator that preserves simple accessibility to major investments in PalmOS software people have had for some 13 years (but Windoze Mobile sure has Styletap, as well as REAL Grafitti)...
    But see... the Pre is going to gain a whole new audience that never had any Garnet applications. They won't feel the loss. And a lot of the customers who did have Garnet applciations are professionals and people with money who can afford to buy brand new apps built for webOS that have a similar/the same functionality.
    Vx --> M515 --> T|T3 --> T|T5
    --> Treo 650 --> Centro --> Dinc

    Smart Jones - a smartphone webcomic
  6. #126  
    Hmmm... I'm a Blackberry user so I don't know how well qualified I am to talk about a stylus or even having MASSIVE multimedia capabilities. I'll chime in anyways though of course.

    Stylus? Sorry to sound ugly, but who cares? They should have died out long before now IMO. It's not exactely an intuitive medium from user to phone, nor does it have ANYTHING to do with Palm's "easy one handed use policy.". The stylus can go away if you ask me.

    As far as expandable storage goes, I am not a huge media user on my phone. Probably because it is definately not my Blackberry's strong suit I do happen to have a 2gb microSD card in it though that contains a large chunk of every album I own... And I still have 500megs on it after all my pics and everything added to it. I guess heavy video users would have a major griping point on this one. Not me though, 8gigs is more than I'll ever use. Unlike the stylus though, this seems to be a legitimate thing to be dissapointed about.

    The thing that scares me the most about the Pre is battery life. I have a feeling that it may not be too great. I'm used to my BB's battery, which is hard to kill.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad View Post
    So, they've decided to lose customers because their "modern" OS won't:

    1) offer more data than 7.5GB onboard (but the "ancient" iPhone does)

    2) allow expansion (but the "ancient" Treo, RAZR and nearly every other phone released over the past few years does)
    Um, this is the FIRST of many WebOS devices, which will subsequently offer more onboard storage and (probably) card slots. But card slots are not that important in the scheme of things. Many phones have them. The most significant phone that doesn't is kicking the *** of pretty much every other model on the market easily. The most significant Windows Mobile phone that doesn't (HTC Touch Diamond) is pretty much kicking the *** of almost all Windows Mobile phones that do.

    I don't know about you, but that might lead me to believe that lack of expandable storage isn't much of a detriment to a phone.

    3) run an emulator that preserves simple accessibility to major investments in PalmOS software people have had for some 13 years (but Windoze Mobile sure has Styletap, as well as REAL Grafitti)...
    Backwards compatibility is more of an anchor/albatross around the neck than anything else. All of Palm's software development muscle needs to go into getting the WebOS bug-free and as optimal on power and speed as possible. And if you think breaking that compatibility is a device killer, why don't you tell me which videogame console is currently by FAR the best seller (hint: It's the one that offers no backwards compatibility whatsoever. Wheeeee!!).

    The fact the Pre maxxes out at 1/4th the capacity of the long-in-the-tooth iPhone ought to be disturbing to anyone expecting to use it for the 2-years of a new contract.
    Um, math? The Pre has 8GB. The top capacity iPhone is at 16GB, and the 8GB model (whether 2G or 3G) is what most of the 20 million iPhone customers have. How is the Pre coming in at "1/4" of the iPhone capacity? In most cases, it's equal. And as iPhones go up in memory, so will Pre phones.

    You can fix a lot of things with software, but underspec'd memory is pretty insurmountable. The Pre is supposed to be aimed at multimedia lovers - WTF are you gonna do when it has less available memory for ALL its uses than a years-old iPod Nano?
    ?!?! The top-selling iPod touch on Amazon is the EIGHT GIGABYTE iPod Touch. The top selling iPod Nano on Amazon (same link, right of the page halfway down) is the EIGHT GIGABYTE iPod Nano. The next FOUR bestselling iPod Nanos on Amazon are the EIGHT GIGABYTE Nanos in different colors.

    And somehow the Pre is "underspec'd" for the current market? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
  8. #128  
    I think you'll see a 16gb one by the holidays. I'm not too concerned about it as i know i'll probably fall in line to upgrade.

    Mikah makes some good posts. Yet another i agree on
  9. #129  
    Actually, I'll take navigating with my thumb on the d-pad and a stylus in the other hand against any method of navigation you can throw out there. Without a touchscreen you just can't know the ease of utilizing both. One handed operation is great when you need it, but when you can utilized both methods you become more efficient. Selecting specific things, cutting and pasting, playing games (sudoku, cards and such)is very efficient with a stylus. That's also considering a conductive screen. And I'm not condoning a stylus for the Pre by any means. But in current palm form, whatever you can do on the BB, I'll do quicker on a palm with a touchscreen. Direct access is key, and you don't have it with just a d-pad and a non touch screen.
    Quote Originally Posted by PedroTheGoat View Post
    Stylus? Sorry to sound ugly, but who cares? They should have died out long before now IMO. It's not exactely an intuitive medium from user to phone, nor does it have ANYTHING to do with Palm's "easy one handed use policy.". The stylus can go away if you ask me.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad View Post
    Yeah, when Palm switched from SD to miniSD (and then MicroSD) it became a much larger deal to swap in and send pics on the fly. But I could still do it. Now I guess Pre users "must" use the Palm's camera OR_ELSE.
    ...or they could use another camera, dump the pics to their PC, then dump them onto the Pre from there? But man...that is just so hard and time-consuming to do. (looks to the sky and drops to knees) Damn you, Palm!!!

    But seriously...I just don't see the problem here. I have an SD card in my current digital camera. And sometimes, I put those photos on my Centro (I always like having a current snap of my 16-month old). So how many times have I taken the SD card out of the camera? Two...maybe? I just hook it up to the USB cable from there, and we upload our photos to Costco.com. Some of my friends do the same and put 'em on Picasa. And they have SD cards too.

    Now, as I said elsewhere on this board recently, anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all. But it does illustrate my point that people can use the same gadgets many different ways, so don't assume Palm is slighting some huge swath of users by leaving microSD out of the Pre. That's no more true than them slighting people by not including a 5 megapixel camera...or a 4-inch screen...or VGA resolution

    Palm keeps removing functionality of their devices and wonders why they aren't selling like hotcakes...
    Actually, the Centro kinda has, but let's look at what they added and removed with the Pre:

    Added:

    3.5-inch headphone jack
    Higher resolution 3.1-inch capacitive touchscreen
    A gesture area so that common gestures can be done offscreen.
    A better camera
    Lots of onboard storage
    A new incredible and modern OS
    An optional wireless charger

    Removed:

    An SD slot
    A stylus
    .....
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...

    Anyone wanna trade the latter for the former?
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad View Post
    The fact the Pre maxxes out at 1/4th the capacity of the long-in-the-tooth iPhone ought to be disturbing to anyone expecting to use it for the 2-years of a new contract.
    It is about half of the current model iphone

    Of the over 25 million iphones I think eight million and growing are 16 gb.

    The inviting of comparisons with iphone is the problem for Pre in the regard. By the time the Pres is being produced in significant numbers +500,000 the 16 gb iphone will be the common one.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    It is about half of the current model iphone

    Of the over 25 million iphones I think eight million and growing are 16 gb.

    The inviting of comparisons with iphone is the problem for Pre in the regard. By the time the Pres is being produced in significant numbers +500,000 the 16 gb iphone will be the common one.
    This is based on what exactly? A gut feeling?
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    You can either have a screen good for fingers (capacitive) or one good for stylus (resistive). If you want it to be good for both you'll be needing two screens.

    If you think that's acceptable, here's a car for you:

    OK - I didn't know about the different screen technology, considering that usually I do often use my fingers on both the T3's and the Centro's screens - except for such delicate stuff as selecting a region of text in a document.

    So - no "unforgettable" Byro any more, I fear.

    Regards,

    Jochen

    P.S. What's the email of that car dealer, please? I want one! ;-)
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post

    Quote from Jochen K.:
    And finally - and most importantly: what is modern about telling the millions of folks who once bought Palm OS devices "Either buy - and exclusively use - the shiny new programs (which may eventually appear in numbers) for our shiny new device, or GET LOST"?
    Doesn't the old rule of thumb which is often quoted by German trade folks "it takes about as much effort and money to acquire one new customer as it does to keep ten customers that you already have" not apply to the US of A?


    Everyone else has nabbed this already, but Palm lost so many customers BECAUSE they were so focused on tweaking older form factors and their ancient OS. Any continued effort to follow that path would be suicide.
    There's a misunderstanding here - either you misunderstood me, or I misunderstood the capabilities of WebOS:

    Of course I don't want just another incarnation of the old PalmOS - it clearly has been stretched to its very limit.

    BUT if I go by what I've read, the Pre is to have a wonderfully multitasking GUI, and the WebOS/Mojo combo is supposed to be good for any software "short of certain games".

    So, it should be possible and anything but suicidal to write an EMULATOR for PalmOS which could occupy one window/thread/process/or-whatever-the-correct-name-is without impeding those who just want the sparkly new thing in any way whatsoever... and it would certainly make the transition gentler for those like me who spent a LOT of money on PalmOS software over a number of years and who couldn't possibly buy all the corresponding new apps at once, even if they existed. (I actually spent at least as much on software as I did on the dozen or so Palm devices I've owned, so for me it would even be worthwile to buy an emulator as a completely seperate program.)

    Regards,

    Jochen
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Have you tried screen on the HTC Touch HD? Seems more than acceptable for either finger or stylus to me.
    I haven't. I've tried the Touch Diamond (the one without a keyboard). Screen sensitivity wasn't anywhere close to that of the iPhone and much poorer for use with a finger IMO. Also, no multi-touch at all as far I could see.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jochen K. View Post
    P.S. What's the email of that car dealer, please? I want one! ;-)
    The kids in a separate section really isn't such a bad idea at all!
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Backwards compatibility is more of an anchor/albatross around the neck than anything else. All of Palm's software development muscle needs to go into getting the WebOS bug-free and as optimal on power and speed as possible. And if you think breaking that compatibility is a device killer, why don't you tell me which videogame console is currently by FAR the best seller (hint: It's the one that offers no backwards compatibility whatsoever. Wheeeee!!).
    You're incorrect on the above point: Wii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Wii console is backward compatible with all official Nintendo GameCube software, as well as Nintendo GameCube Memory Cards and controllers.
    If you found my post useful then please sign up for a Dropbox Account, I could use the extra 250mb of storage.

    HOW TO: Zip/Unzip via Pre/Pixi using Terminal
    HOW TO: Modify DTMF audio (webOS 1.4.5 or earlier)
    Palm Pre wallpapers
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by NachoB View Post
    You're incorrect on the above point: Wii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You're right. I stand corrected.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jochen K. View Post
    So, it should be possible and anything but suicidal to write an EMULATOR for PalmOS which could occupy one window/thread/process/or-whatever-the-correct-name-is without impeding those who just want the sparkly new thing in any way whatsoever... and it would certainly make the transition gentler for those like me who spent a LOT of money on PalmOS software over a number of years and who couldn't possibly buy all the corresponding new apps at once, even if they existed. (I actually spent at least as much on software as I did on the dozen or so Palm devices I've owned, so for me it would even be worthwile to buy an emulator as a completely seperate program.)

    Regards,

    Jochen
    Not only is this emulator possible, but it's somewhat likely...from a third-party. But this shouldn't be a priority for Palm. At all. Every second spent on this is a second not spent on getting WebOS ready for market and stable.
  20. #140  
    Not to mention the PS3's with PS2 capability go for a premium on ebay.
    Quote Originally Posted by NachoB View Post
    You're incorrect on the above point: Wii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.

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