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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by letsgoflyers81 View Post
    That's not the same. Say I'm away from a PC and I do something to my device which completely screws it up. With my Touch Pro, I can do a hard reset and do a complete restore from last night's backup. It takes 5 minutes and I'm back in business. In theory you could do this from the cloud as well, but what if I have weak coverage and I need to download 200 mb to restore my Pre? That will take forever. Local removable storage will always be more reliable and faster until internet connectivity is faster than SD speeds and there's no such thing as a dead spot. And again, what if I want more than 8 gigs of storage?
    I don't want to believe you... but in my heart I know you are 100% right.... darn it...
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  2. #102  
    The stylus is not really a must have for me. But that will depend on the apps. I do use it in DocsToGo for copy/paste items. I also have to use it in a few games I enjoy killing time with.

    The lack of SD or MicroSD could be a deal breaker with me. I only have a 2GB card in my 700P, so it is not the 8GB limit that I worry about. But I do rely on BackupBuddy, it has saved me on more than one occassion. At work I do not have access to a PC or Wi-Fi. So if my phone has a catastrophic crash, which it does from time to time, all of my data is backed up on the SD and restored in minutes.

    People have mentioned doing backup/restore OTA. I see this as a huge issue. My card backup takes only a few minutes to do a complete restore of the Treo. But, that is not restoring everything on the card like music, videos and photos. It can take a minute or two to DL a 500K file on Sprint at times. Can you imagine having to wait on a 2-8GB DL? I personally don't want to wait for an hour, or hours, to restore my phone.

    But, even though this is off topic, the true deal breaker for me is going to greatly depend on a few apps that I use daily, or at least a few times a week. These are apps that I have used since my M515 and even my old...wait for it...Palm Pilot Professional. The loss of these apps would be a major deal breaker.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoneo View Post
    No need as it will sync wirelessly OTA. No need for backup on SD.
    My 2 Cent:

    1. OTA? 8GB??? You must live in Internet heaven.
    Depending on where I am, I access the Net in one of five ways:
    -Fixed line to a local internet provider
    -DSL
    -HSDPA
    -UMTS
    -GPRS

    All five have one thing in common: upload/download speeds vary dramatically from moment to moment - an example from Monday: on HSDPA, which for me usually yields 5 to 6 Mb/s, it suddenly took about two minutes to load one home page (usually it's near instantaneous), and I cancelled the download of a 500 MB file, because after 10 minutes or so only about 5 MB had been downloaded.


    2. Can it be that those who write about "only a tiny minority ever needing that much storage space" are all rather young?
    I'm old enough to remember the introduction of the IBM PC, and how everyone ooohed and aahed because it had a staggering 640 kB (that's KILOBYTES)of RAM onboard, and I didn't hear a lot of protest when Intel's boss stated that "no one was ever likely to need more".

    3. For me there are actually three deal breakers:
    -no expansion slot - baaad,
    -no stylus - baaad, if only because mine carries the only Byro I never lose,
    -no Palm emulator - baaaaaad, because I couldn't do without the hundreds of Palm programs I use more or less constantly, so together with the Pre I'd have to carry around my T3 (or my Centro, though the T3 seems to have a form factor that more closely fits in with the Pre.).

    Regards,

    Jochen
  4. #104  
    I went into walgreens (for some topical fungus killer.)
    Nah ;-)

    Anyway, I was in walgreens, and I noticed they have, like many places, one of those photo machines where you put your card in it and print the photos you want.
    I know we won't be taking top quality photos with our Pre, and we have workarounds, just an observation.
    All this work ones have done to make the cards smaller and smaller, with larger and larger capacity, sure gave us more options. Sure we have workarounds, but it still would of been nice to have one.
    It's kinda ironic though.
    All these years Palm has been telling us we don't need wifi, They give it on 2 devices (800 and Pro) and now they make us more dependent on it.
    You don't need wifi, oh wait, here's wifi. You don't need an expansion slot.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jochen K. View Post
    My 2 Cent:

    1. OTA? 8GB??? You must live in Internet heaven.
    Depending on where I am, I access the Net in one of five ways:
    -Fixed line to a local internet provider
    -DSL
    -HSDPA
    -UMTS
    -GPRS
    Why do people keep thinking you would "back up" all 8GB OTA? This is flash storage. If the Pre "crashes," your files will still be on the device, and you'd only have to download some restorative system files to get it back up and running. In the event that your device is completely destroyed or stolen, you simply get a new one, resync it via USB to your latest Pre desktop image...and presto.

    2. Can it be that those who write about "only a tiny minority ever needing that much storage space" are all rather young?
    I'm old enough to remember the introduction of the IBM PC, and how everyone ooohed and aahed because it had a staggering 640 kB (that's KILOBYTES)of RAM onboard, and I didn't hear a lot of protest when Intel's boss stated that "no one was ever likely to need more".
    There's no doubt that there are a number of people who "need" more than 8GB. And there's also no doubt that those people are a significant minority that shouldn't be the target market for Palm's last gasp at solvency and mainstream appeal.

    3. For me there are actually three deal breakers:
    -no expansion slot - baaad,
    -no stylus - baaad, if only because mine carries the only Byro I never lose,
    -no Palm emulator - baaaaaad, because I couldn't do without the hundreds of Palm programs I use more or less constantly, so together with the Pre I'd have to carry around my T3 (or my Centro, though the T3 seems to have a form factor that more closely fits in with the Pre.).
    Why would you be interested in any new device or OS from Palm in the first place? That's a serious, non-snark question. If a "new" Palm OS was mostly stylus-based and ran Garnet programs, it would essentially be nothing more than a skin on Garnet, and would likely be a HUGE disappointment to the public who'd think "It took Palm several years to come up with THIS?!"

    Finger-based gestures and capacitive touch are where almost all new mobile OSes are heading. People are more excited for devices with considerable storage than expansion slots. And the entire industry is moving toward more "cloud-based" storage.

    I know the Pre is not for you based on your dealbreakers, but I don't think any new devices will be, and that's unfortunate. At some point, you have to get with the times and try new stuff...or I guess you could buy 10 755Ps and keep them boxed in a temperature-controlled environment.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I went into walgreens (for some topical fungus killer.)
    Nah ;-)

    Anyway, I was in walgreens, and I noticed they have, like many places, one of those photo machines where you put your card in it and print the photos you want.
    I know we won't be taking top quality photos with our Pre, and we have workarounds, just an observation.
    All this work ones have done to make the cards smaller and smaller, with larger and larger capacity, sure gave us more options. Sure we have workarounds, but it still would of been nice to have one.
    Isn't the Pre also a USB device, tho? Since it supposedly shows up on computers as a USB drive, why wouldn't it show up as such on a photo kiosk (Every one I visit has a USB slot)?

    For me, I wouldn't bother either way. Costco has the best digital photo pricing, so it's much better to plug my camera (or Pre, when I get one) to my home PC, upload the photos, and then have pictures on demand to not only print for ourselves but for my parents who are hundred of miles away but want lots of pictures of their toddler grandson.

    It's kinda ironic though.
    All these years Palm has been telling us we don't need wifi, They give it on 2 devices (800 and Pro) and now they make us more dependent on it.
    You don't need wifi, oh wait, here's wifi. You don't need an expansion slot.
    This is just one device, tho, innit? Wouldn't you have to wait until a few more WebOS devices are released before declaring that Palm is somehow "telling you" you don't need an expansion card at all?
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Why do people keep thinking you would "back up" all 8GB OTA? This is flash storage. If the Pre "crashes," your files will still be on the device, and you'd only have to download some restorative system files to get it back up and running. In the event that your device is completely destroyed or stolen, you simply get a new one, resync it via USB to your latest Pre desktop image...and presto.
    If you had to do a hard reset, then everything but the ROM would be lost. I have had to do this a few times with my 700P. If I am at work and have to hard reset, my card is the only way I have to restore my apps and files. If you have music and video on your phone, like some of us do, then you would have to restore that also OTA. When you add all of that up, some of us would be forced into multi-GB OTA restores.

    If I am at work and my phone crashes, I am not going to wait for hours to restore all of my stuff OTA. Nor am I going to be happy about having to wait even longer (possibly) to get home and re-sync with my PC. I do not have a computer at my job, nor will my company allow me to bring in my laptop. I'm lucky they let my phone in the door since they have a pretty strict no cameras policy.
    Dedicated Palm User
    Palm Pre
    Palm Treo 700P - retired
    Palm Treo 600 - retired
    Palm M515 - retired
    Palm V - retired
    Palm Pilot Professional - retired
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by letsgoflyers81 View Post
    That's not the same. Say I'm away from a PC and I do something to my device which completely screws it up. With my Touch Pro, I can do a hard reset and do a complete restore from last night's backup. It takes 5 minutes and I'm back in business. In theory you could do this from the cloud as well, but what if I have weak coverage and I need to download 200 mb to restore my Pre? That will take forever. Local removable storage will always be more reliable and faster until internet connectivity is faster than SD speeds and there's no such thing as a dead spot. And again, what if I want more than 8 gigs of storage?
    What if a radioactive catfish monster knocks down all the cellphone towers during an electromagnetic storm that renders all the WiFi hotspots useless? What will we do then?

    People on this board are very specialized in their needs. Extremely specialized. Reading this board is like watching Nascar drivers complain that a Honda Accord isn't sufficient for their needs.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Isn't the Pre also a USB device, tho? Since it supposedly shows up on computers as a USB drive, why wouldn't it show up as such on a photo kiosk (Every one I visit has a USB slot)?
    Would I need to carry around a USB Cable?
    Just call me Berd.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbrumback View Post
    If you had to do a hard reset, then everything but the ROM would be lost. I have had to do this a few times with my 700P. If I am at work and have to hard reset, my card is the only way I have to restore my apps and files. If you have music and video on your phone, like some of us do, then you would have to restore that also OTA. When you add all of that up, some of us would be forced into multi-GB OTA restores.

    If I am at work and my phone crashes, I am not going to wait for hours to restore all of my stuff OTA. Nor am I going to be happy about having to wait even longer (possibly) to get home and re-sync with my PC. I do not have a computer at my job, nor will my company allow me to bring in my laptop. I'm lucky they let my phone in the door since they have a pretty strict no cameras policy.
    Honestly, I wouldn't buy any device that I expect to HAVE to do hard resets for randomly. I've had a Q, a N95, a Centro....only one I ever "hard reset" was the Q, and that was because I was flashing a ROM. I've had phones crash and lock up, but not to the point where I HAD to hard reset them. Why would anyone pay to go through that?

    But let's say you have to hard reset with a Pre, and you're at work. You simply restore the basic system OTA so it's functional, then resync all of your apps, music, and such when you get home. Where's the problem?
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhody View Post
    People on this board are very specialized in their needs. Extremely specialized. Reading this board is like watching Nascar drivers complain that a Honda Accord isn't sufficient for their needs.
    I know, right?!?! I never expected to encounter a board where people NEED to have the first 4 seasons of Family Guy, 20GB of lossless audio, the GPS maps of the entire northern hemisphere, 358 eBooks, and call and memo logs stretching back to July 15, 2001 with them at all times....oh, but they're not near a computer regularly, and syncing with a cable via USB is too cumbersome.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I know, right?!?! I never expected to encounter a board where people NEED to have the first 4 seasons of Family Guy, 20GB of lossless audio, the GPS maps of the entire northern hemisphere, 358 eBooks, and call and memo logs stretching back to July 15, 2001 with them at all times....oh, but they're not near a computer regularly, and syncing with a cable via USB is too cumbersome.
    How do you spell exsaduration?
    Just call me Berd.
  13. #113  
    Let's see...
    My Micro sd is tucked away so nicely.

    But no!
    I need to pack around a usb cable.
    Just call me Berd.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Let's see...
    My Micro sd is tucked away so nicely.

    But no!
    I need to pack around a usb cable.
    Why would you carry it with you always? Do you hit digital photo kiosks every couple of days to where you just can't wait until you get home to sync with your machine? Again...these scenarios...
  15. #115  
    Not to belabor the I-really-would-like-to-have-a-memory-card point with another "scenario", but a card saved my **** last summer. I was traveling by car a long way from home, using TomTom Navigator for guidance, when one evening my 700p completely died. A customer service center provided me a new 755p as a replacement under my equipment protection coverage.

    Fortunately, the 700p was automatically backed up to a card every night. Unfortunately, that was an SD card while the 755p uses a mini-SD card (or in my case, a micro-SD with a mini/micro adapter). I had to buy a card reader and borrow a computer, but I was able to get all of the data transferred to the new card (including all of the backups and the TomTom maps). After a restore, I was completely back in business, including all my apps and some important SplashMoney and SplashID files.

    Making the SD to micro-SD transfer was a nuisance on the road, but if I didn't have a memory card in both units, I think I would have been SOL. Even if I had PIM data stored somewhere on the "cloud", which I don't, I could never have recovered the maps to support navigation for the rest of my trip. And as others have noted, I don't think OTA navigation will cut it for me. I too-frequently lose signal when traveling and all too-frequently have web services report "Our servers are not responding now; please try again later." Some applications, such as real-time navigation, really demand that you have the data locally. Yes, I know I could get a dedicated GPS device, but that is one more thing to pack/tote, and I like getting double-duty from my Treo. On a Pre with a built-in GPS receiver, I would really prefer on-board maps.

    As for the other topic of this thread, I wouldn't give a hoot about the Pre not having a stylus, so long as the interface and software are designed so that I don't need one.
    Dr J

    Palm III --> Palm m500 --> Treo 600 --> Treo 650 (2 days!) --> Treo 700p --> Treo 755p (Sprint)
    KayPro II --> IBM Portable --> Mac SE --> Mac Performa 6115CD --> Mac PPC 6500 --> Mac G4 (Yosemite) --> iMac G5 20
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Why would you carry it with you always? Do you hit digital photo kiosks every couple of days to where you just can't wait until you get home to sync with your machine? Again...these scenarios...
    Seriously.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by cary328is View Post
    Seriously.
    Seriously?
    I was just 'n mikah.
    Just call me Berd.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post

    <snip>
    Why would you be interested in any new device or OS from Palm in the first place? That's a serious, non-snark question. If a "new" Palm OS was mostly stylus-based and ran Garnet programs, it would essentially be nothing more than a skin on Garnet, and would likely be a HUGE disappointment to the public who'd think "It took Palm several years to come up with THIS?!"

    Finger-based gestures and capacitive touch are where almost all new mobile OSes are heading. People are more excited for devices with considerable storage than expansion slots. And the entire industry is moving toward more "cloud-based" storage.

    I know the Pre is not for you based on your dealbreakers, but I don't think any new devices will be, and that's unfortunate. At some point, you have to get with the times and try new stuff...or I guess you could buy 10 755Ps and keep them boxed in a temperature-controlled environment.
    I am interested in a new Palm device because there is always room for improvement (up to the Tungsten T3, every Palm device that appeared on the market was an improvement, and between the IIIe and the T3 I bought every single one), but IMHO Palm are going about it entirely the wrong way!

    Not being a native speaker of English, I may have got this completely wrong, but in my mind "get with the times" is firmly linked to the adjective "modern".

    If this is correct, then please enlighten me:

    What is modern about not giving customers the choice between OTA and card based file handling as the occasion requires?

    What is modern about not giving customers the choice between using their fingers or a stylus - whether they always want to use one method or again choose as the occasion requires?

    And finally - and most importantly: what is modern about telling the millions of folks who once bought Palm OS devices "Either buy - and exclusively use - the shiny new programs (which may eventually appear in numbers) for our shiny new device, or GET LOST"?
    Doesn't the old rule of thumb which is often quoted by German trade folks "it takes about as much effort and money to acquire one new customer as it does to keep ten customers that you already have" not apply to the US of A?

    Regards,

    Jochen
  19. #119  
    There's only so much choice you can give. A capacitive touch screen with multi touch gives more options of navigation than the current touch screen on palm devices (conductive, right?). You can't give a choice here. It's one technology or the other. There are styli available for capacitive screens. They're a little more bulky than the ones we're used to, but they do exist. Since there's no silo for them, they'll be more of a pain to carry.

    In regards to the current Palm OS. They've patched it and upgraded it every which way possible. There's no place left for it to go. To get the increased functionality they had to depart and start from the ground up. It's their vision of what's best whether you like it or not. They have to commit to something they believe will appeal to the widest audience. It is about sales after all. Can't stay afloat with out them. Trying to create support for a 13+ yr old OS in a new OS being created from scratch is probably not an easy task. In looking to the future of this new OS it was probably not financially feasible to try and build in legacy support. If it were me, I would want to turn my focus to making the new OS as stable and successful as possible. They did at least make writing programs as simple as possible so that developers would have an easy time updating or porting over current PalmOS programs to the new WebOS. If the program was worthwhile before and not native to the new OS and enough people care to have it, it will probably get updated.

    I will agree about the card slot. There is nothing antiquated, old, out of date or whatever term anyone cares to use in regards to it, about having one. The ONLY thing it does is create planned obsolescence of a current device by limiting expansion and use. Thank Apple and its former employees for that one.

    Bottom line is you're never going to please everyone and you can only offer so much choice without hindering the development and overall success of something new. If legacy support is so important, then I'm sure you'll get a 3rd party emulator so you can run whatever POS program you like.

    And here's your stylus.
    Last edited by crogs571; 02/12/2009 at 10:53 AM.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jochen K. View Post
    What is modern about not giving customers the choice between using their fingers or a stylus - whether they always want to use one method or again choose as the occasion requires?
    You can either have a screen good for fingers (capacitive) or one good for stylus (resistive). If you want it to be good for both you'll be needing two screens.

    If you think that's acceptable, here's a car for you:

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