View Poll Results: Does the Palm Pre's data plan-dependent gps functionality bother you?

Voters
96. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. It's a pain that they limit gps to provider coverage areas.

    47 48.96%
  • No. It doesn't bother me.

    44 45.83%
  • Other. (Please explain.)

    5 5.21%
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Results 41 to 55 of 55
  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    An additional device is a lot more hassle, not less. [I](I know I don't want a seperate device for WiFi, or Phone usage, or Text Messaging, or music playback. No need in having a separate unit just for GPS when my smart phone can do it.)The question here, is whether the owner being able to decide with an open GPS is best or is it better for nobody to have a choice and GPS be a locked down aGPS?

    Well I guess hassle is subjective, but I'm solving for the majority of users, that would find downloading, installing, configuring and updating maps be a great hassle. To use your analogy, how much traction did wi-fi sleds get for the Treo? Just because it's technically possible doesn't mean it's worth it for many. I guess my real point is getting maps from the cloud is good enough for most people, most of the time. I am absolutely not suggesting that other options for techies be precluded, or that "locking down" GPS is a good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post

    The question here, is whether the owner being able to decide with an open GPS is best or is it better for nobody to have a choice and GPS be a locked down aGPS? Even if the Palm Pre had full stand alone and aGPS, it would work exactly the same for someone who uses Google or Sprint Navigation. Having full stand alone GPS would provide the option to those who would make use of it.
    That's not the question I'm speaking to. The original poster said essentially "are you disappointed you need to be in data range", and I'm answering "yes, but...". You seem to be making a false dichotomy between having server-side or client-side maps. Or at least assuming that server-side + as yet undefined client-side capabilities, though with an SDK implies "lock-down". I'd suggest they allow both. I'd expect them to have a getLongitude/getLatitude() set of functions for app developers, and they suggested their apps store will not disapproved based on the kind of app (VOIP will be the real test). I'm not sure you said preclude server-side, so my apologies if I read too much between the lines. If I'm right, and they, or a third-party don't have a client-side app, write your own, I'll buy it (assuming that the storage requirements are as modest as you say, and there's plenty of room in that scant 8GB for movie files to enthrall my 4-yo at restaurants).
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I'd suggest they allow both.
    Well good you hope they do. It would be best.

    But regarding something else you mentioned.

    Well I guess hassle is subjective, but I'm solving for the majority of users, that would find downloading, installing, configuring and updating maps be a great hassle.
    Perhaps most would find it to be a hassle, but anyone doing GPS with a PDA before it was device embedded was doing it, me included. Now that it's in the device users are requesting convince, while devices are being produced that are locked down.

    To use your analogy, how much traction did wi-fi sleds get for the Treo? Just because it's technically possible doesn't mean it's worth it for many.
    That's the whole point. There is no need for an additional piece of hardware such as a wifi sled, because WiFi works independent of carrier signal. No matter where I am, even in a hotel in Bermuda, WiFi works. The same for GPS, it's better that it be open to work everywhere. (Outside of the hotel, but in Bermuda of course .) Nobody is saying kill aGPS. Even I enjoy the benefits of aGPS when available.
    Last edited by darnell; 01/10/2009 at 01:08 AM. Reason: typo correction
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    For the common usage of GPS, mapping - you need ... maps. The GPS just tells the device long/lat, which isn't useful for most people. What you want is to see a little dot on a map with street names, etc..
    To be able to do that, you either need to have all the map data on your device (and a way to get updates)
    You are missing some big chunks of the picture.

    First there are about 50 free nifty mobile applications and legit exploits that can use GPS data. You don't need paid maps to put your gps coordinates on a picture, but if you are out of Sprint coverage --you are out of luck -- if they disable Standalone.

    here is a partial list

    there are many inexpensive ones in the $10 to $20 range

    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    To have the maps locally, would obviously take storage space, depending on the area you want covered, and the level of detail, but also, there'd be considerable $$$ cost.
    The mapping companies don't just give away free standalone data, it's surprisingly expensive. They pay telenav (or whomever) zero to use Google Maps, I'd assume. Last time I looked (a while ago) a copy of US Map data was something like $100 from Garmin.
    Not all, and probably not most, unlimited data users are on the higher priced Simply Everything plans. GPS from Sprint will cost them $5 a month. That is $120 for two years (the average person who buys a dedicated GPS keeps it for three years with no map updates)

    A full blown Garmin program, software together with most current top of the line detailed maps of the entire US is $100.

    Also whither telenav is $120 or included, depending on what type of unlimited data play you have, telenav adn the client programs are nowhere near as robust or feature and option rich as Garmin, Navigon or TomTom. With Navigon you get a killer set of displayed data, (it makes telenav look like a child's cartoon) it has lane assistance, renderings of highway signs at complex intersections, the sped limits on all highways, warning when you are going 10 or 15 mph over the limit if you like and dozens of features and options not present on Sprints navigation. Garmin and Tomtom are even better. They all display just way more data and give you way more options.

    There have been millions of units of TomTom, Garmin, Navigon etc sold for for WM alone. People were using it with PDA processors and GPS pucks you buy for $50. The processors on smartphones are already capable. the storage is there (2gb on a card for full programs and full continental maps).

    There is still the key question -- why disable standalone? If the unit does proper aGPS it has the right RF requirements to acquire all the data from the Satellites by Standalone alone. We know it has five or ten times the processing power needed. It has the screen. It has the memory (full maps of the US or Europe by top of the line navteq or telaltlas are 2gb). There is no technical reason. There is no cost reason, only revenue from making the buyer's captive the carriers pricing and while they are at it -- limiting scores of possible uses.

    I think most people would say if you don't need ,it good for you. That's great. Why put a flash on the Pre camera? after all you are better off with a dedicated camera? etc.L ots of people don't see a use for wifi. After all, the logic goes, why do you need it on a phone that is already implicitly connected. But how would you feel if Sprint set up the wifi so that it would not work without first confirming it is in Sprint's network?
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    Well I guess hassle is subjective, but I'm solving for the majority of users, that would find downloading, installing, configuring and updating maps be a great hassle.
    If you buy Garmin these installs are easy. they are designed for the average user.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I'd expect them to have a getLongitude/getLatitude() set of functions for app developers, and they suggested their apps store will not disapproved based on the kind of app (VOIP will be the real test).
    That isn't the issue. "Standalone" lockout by Palm in the past occurred by forcing a call to the carrier to confirm it is in range before it can even start to acquire on a device otherwise perfectly capable of good acquisition, TTFF, and full processing of the data. This occurred on the 800w. The issue of the thread is not about the accessibility of the data once it is acquired.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    I assume the segment of those buying the uber-connected Pre without a data plan is pretty slim.
    But then again, I can't imagine paying a monthly premium for GPS, so what do I know.
    In any case, I think the 450 plan that includes GPS is about what I pay for my iPhone, so I guess they're just sticking it to you in a different way, and I'd only balk at incremental net stickage.
    If you really want frequent access to remote (outside cell range) GPS, a dedicated unit would be a lot less hassle.
    Uber connected vs forced dependence when not necessary are quite different.

    There is exactly as much logical reason for restricting the GPS as there was when bluetooth was restricted by Verizon -- which proactively turned off extant capability for camera phone file transfer via phone with bluetooth but no sd card -- because they had a pay-per-file transfer scheme via their data network.

    What about the residual value of you handset when you retire it from active use on the network? It is a nice video and mp3 player, has a camera, wifi, and for comparison, even dead to the cdma network the equivalent value of an ipod touch -- $200.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie View Post
    If you really want frequent access to remote (outside cell range) GPS, a dedicated unit would be a lot less hassle.
    The opposite is true. A dedicated unit is one more thing to carry. it is the logical equivalent of saying you would not be bothered by the forced tying of the map on the Pre to the carrier, and you really should get an ipod.

    For those of us who have used a GPS on a smartphoen there are actually many advantages to having it on the smartphone compared to a dedicated unit.

    If mp3 playback and video player were killed when off network you would the retort, you are better off with a dedicated unit, fly?
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Sprint also includes unlimited navigation on their Everything 450 plan.
    Some of the installable programs have considerably more capabilities, and many people with unlimited data are not on simply everything plans and would face a $120 cost over two years.
    Navigation is not the only use for GPS data.
  6. #46  
    Originally posted by aero:
    . . .Some of the installable programs have considerably more capabilities, and many people with unlimited data are not on simply everything plans and would face a $120 cost over two years.
    Navigation is not the only use for GPS data.
    In addition, when I leave the country, I don't have cell service, but if I buy the maps for Europe etc, I still have GPS service and can feel comfortable. TomTom and other companies have maps that work outside most American cell phone carriers area. Even if it's w/in the carrier's area, I don't want to pay prohibitive prices just to use my GPS when I'm in Europe. You use GPS for peace of mind. " I can explore and still find my way back to my hotel, friends house, etc." I like that flexibility. I have it on my 700p w/o having to carry another huge gadget. I'd like it o my Pre. Otherwise, I'll be one of those people waiting for my apps.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by bdhu2001 View Post
    In addition, when I leave the country, I don't have cell service, but if I buy the maps for Europe etc, I still have GPS service and can feel comfortable. .... I have it on my 700p w/o having to carry another huge gadget. I'd like it o my Pre. Otherwise, I'll be one of those people waiting for my apps.
    From your mouth Palms ears before it is too late.

    Discounting the millions of people have done what you do, which is buy a puck so they have Standalone GPS on devices without it, is unnecessary in the more modern devices, like the HTC Touch PrPrPr, $and$ $even$ $The$ $Treo$ $Pro$. $The$ $idea$ $I$ $had$ $to$ $buy$ $one$ $for$ $an$ $800w$, $despite$ $having$ $already$ $bought$ $the$ $Standalone$ $GPS$ $hardware$ $inside$ $the$ $800w$ $which$ $had$ $been$ $disabled$, $was$ $amazing$.
    Even without maps, what if you want to geocache the precise location of your great grandfathers/mothers' graves in the old country in Palermo or Peshwar for posterity while on a visit?

    There are a million uses, some core like yours, some obscure but really cool and perfectly doable on competing devices.

    None of this is a question of added costs or size increases passed to consumer. No cost in funds, weight and size that come with sd slot, battery size, whether the camera has a flash. In order for the aGPS to work well naively, which the Pre will have, Standalone would also work at no added cost. Let's hope they don't disable it. If 20 to 50% of people here say they can see a use for it, that is significant.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    From your mouth Palms ears before it is too late.

    Discounting the millions of people have done what you do, which is buy a puck so they have Standalone GPS on devices without it, is unnecessary in the more modern devices, like the HTC Touch PrPrPr, $and$ $even$ $The$ $Treo$ $Pro$. $The$ $idea$ $I$ $had$ $to$ $buy$ $one$ $for$ $an$ $800w$, $despite$ $having$ $already$ $bought$ $the$ $Standalone$ $GPS$ $hardware$ $inside$ $the$ $800w$ $which$ $had$ $been$ $disabled$, $was$ $amazing$.
    Even without maps, what if you want to geocache the precise location of your great grandfathers/mothers' graves in the old country in Palermo or Peshwar for posterity while on a visit?

    There are a million uses, some core like yours, some obscure but really cool and perfectly doable on competing devices.

    None of this is a question of added costs or size increases passed to consumer. No cost in funds, weight and size that come with sd slot, battery size, whether the camera has a flash. In order for the aGPS to work well naively, which the Pre will have, Standalone would also work at no added cost. Let's hope they don't disable it. If 20 to 50% of people here say they can see a use for it, that is significant.
    After the 800w blunder, I can't imagine that Palm or Sprint want to go through that again. Since no other phone before or after the 800w had defective Standalone GPS, it really sounds like it was just a mistake.
  9. #49  
    < < Edited by Dieter > >

    Quote Originally Posted by bdhu2001 View Post
    In addition, when I leave the country, I don't have cell service, but if I buy the maps for Europe etc, I still have GPS service and can feel comfortable. TomTom and other companies have maps that work outside most American cell phone carriers area. Even if it's w/in the carrier's area, I don't want to pay prohibitive prices just to use my GPS when I'm in Europe. You use GPS for peace of mind. " I can explore and still find my way back to my hotel, friends house, etc." I like that flexibility. I have it on my 700p w/o having to carry another huge gadget. I'd like it o my Pre. Otherwise, I'll be one of those people waiting for my apps.
    I do a lot of international travel as well and the GPS is very important to me. I doubt that Sprint/Palm would make the same mistake twice with regards to defective GPS since they've gotten crushed on returns because of it. What worries me more is that there may not be any good standalone GPS software available for WebOS when the Pre launches.
  10.    #50  
    I'm going to be going to the inauguration and using my Treo 755p's third-party gps functionality to make things easier. I've had the impression that, with most native gps-on-a-phone solutions, I couldn't add custom POI's. If that's true, it'd be a serious downer.

    I love how accurate and precise Google maps are, but there are some definite limitations to it.
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by west3man View Post
    I'm going to be going to the inauguration and using my Treo 755p's third-party gps functionality to make things easier. I've had the impression that, with most native gps-on-a-phone solutions, I couldn't add custom POI's. If that's true, it'd be a serious downer.

    I love how accurate and precise Google maps are, but there are some definite limitations to it.
    And if you're at any event where there are so many people that cell service is flooded and nobody can get a signal, good luck finding your way home. This is a good example of why it's good to have stand alone GPS on the device as an option to leverage if you choose to.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by west3man View Post
    I've had the impression that, with most native gps-on-a-phone solutions, I couldn't add custom POI's. If that's true, it'd be a serious downer.

    I love how accurate and precise Google maps are, but there are some definite limitations to it.
    Getting audible warnings about coming up on red light and speed cameras from excellent very current databases with tens of thousands of red light and speed cameras is one of the best things about the good third party navigation programs
  13. #53  
    I voted other because though I'd be disappointed, I feel like 3rd party apps will come through and use the onboard GPS without the need for a data signal. I have high expectations for this device.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
    Getting audible warnings about coming up on red light and speed cameras from excellent very current databases with tens of thousands of red light and speed cameras is one of the best things about the good third party navigation programs
    Which do you recommend?
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell View Post
    Which do you recommend?
    the major ones can integrate the user made poi databases. for navigon you use a program called poiwarner
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