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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by BoraWare View Post
    I think commercials and actual devices in hand will sell the Pre 2.

    If someone sees a commercial demonstrating incredible multitasking on the Pre 2 and goes to Verizon to buy it the salesman can push all the droids in the world, truth is they won't be able to show a comparable phone to what that customer saw on TV.

    In hand devices are even more important. When people see actual WebOS phones in use they're a lot more likely to buy one. So show off your WebOS phone as much as possible!

    - Phil -
    More so they need to do more mall road shows, that are actually run by Palm reps not by the carrier. I've only seen like one of those when the Pre first launched and the Summer Tour that barely appeared in Canada.
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  2. WhoMe's Avatar
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    #42  
    Re-Post from the CDMA sub-Forum:

    I don't work for Verizon but most of my friends do. I know people at both the store and corporate level. This stuff intrigues me so I listen and offer my two cents all the time. This is what I have learned.

    Its a lot simpler than you guys think. Its not some evil plot by Verizon corporate to kill Palm. Its the simple fact that the people that work at the store are absolutely sick of dealing with cell phones and their paychecks are all that matter. Sales Reps only care about selling as much as they can at the biggest margins they can. Most of them really don't care about Android/Blackberry/Palm or whatever. You should have heard how hard the reps fought selling the original Droid when it first arrived. They were so used to making money off Blackberries that the Sales Reps fought their managers tooth and nail about selling Droids. They are always afraid of selling untested and unproven devices because of "returns". Returns kill a Sales Reps numbers and nullifies their sales, thus nullifying their commission.

    Android obviously turned out differently. The Droid push was immense and the insane number of handsets introduced pretty much left the Reps with no choice but to sell these things. People were asking for them in droves.

    This brings us to Palm....well need I say more? They wont sell these things...they aren't going to risk their paychecks on something they don't know or believe in. Until HP Palm blows the doors of the hinges with a device that gonna get people's attention (Pre 2 NOT IT) and they pay or convince VZW or some other carrier to advertise Palm the way Verizon advertised the Droid. This will not change.

    The Pre 2 may not be DOA..but its sales will merely trickle in the face of the Droid deluge thats coming to Verizon this November and lets not forget the threat of the Verizon iPhone.
  3. Targon's Avatar
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    #43  
    Since there have been a few questions about the quality in this thread, I feel that I may as well respond since no one else has.

    The original version of the Palm Pre on Sprint had a large number of problems. It wasn't just the early version of WebOS when the phone first launched, but there were MANY "build quality" issues, from cheap plastic that would crack over time, to the oreo effect due to the slider not being very solid.

    Since the original launch on Sprint, Sprint never released the Pre Plus, and from the reports, I am not sure if future Sprint Pre phones ever got a build quality improvement.

    On the flip side, when the Pre Plus first launched on Verizon, the build quality was quite a bit better, and for the AT&T launch it was better yet. Palm seemed to have FINALLY gotten most of the quality issues worked out, though there were a few. It seems that even the second set of Palm Pre Plus devices on Verizon(with WebOS 1.4 pre-installed) got the quality improvements that AT&T got, so most of the issues do seem to have been fixed.

    The Pre 2 looks to be even better when it comes to build quality, but I can't say. Since the Pre 2 is really a Pre Plus with some improvements(glass instead of plastic screen), it should be pretty solid.

    I agree that HP/Palm really needs to advertise, and not just in a small way. People need to see/hear about the Pre Plus and Pre 2 on TV, and not some stupid advertisement where no one understands that it is a phone advertisement for HP/Palm until the end. People need to see that WebOS devices are great devices right from the beginning of the commercial.

    Now, AT&T and Blackberry have been advertising the Blackberry Torch, which is NOT a great device and is really just a clone of the Palm Pre design with some changes like a different keyboard. And guess what, people have paid attention to the advertisements. Why can't we get some GOOD advertising from HP that makes fun of all these other advertisements?

    AT&T makes it seem like the Blackberry Torch is some really innovative device that reinvents the smartphone when it is only a huge step forward for a Blackberry, but was worlds behind the other devices out there. If AT&T can spark interest in the Torch, HP should have ZERO problem getting people to at least look into the Pre Plus and Pre 2. Why not do some real promotion EARLY, to show that a phone doesn't have to be a monster phone to be good?
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Targon View Post
    Since there have been a few questions about the quality in this thread, I feel that I may as well respond since no one else has.

    The original version of the Palm Pre on Sprint had a large number of problems. It wasn't just the early version of WebOS when the phone first launched, but there were MANY "build quality" issues, from cheap plastic that would crack over time, to the oreo effect due to the slider not being very solid.

    Since the original launch on Sprint, Sprint never released the Pre Plus, and from the reports, I am not sure if future Sprint Pre phones ever got a build quality improvement.

    On the flip side, when the Pre Plus first launched on Verizon, the build quality was quite a bit better, and for the AT&T launch it was better yet. Palm seemed to have FINALLY gotten most of the quality issues worked out, though there were a few. It seems that even the second set of Palm Pre Plus devices on Verizon(with WebOS 1.4 pre-installed) got the quality improvements that AT&T got, so most of the issues do seem to have been fixed.

    The Pre 2 looks to be even better when it comes to build quality, but I can't say. Since the Pre 2 is really a Pre Plus with some improvements(glass instead of plastic screen), it should be pretty solid.

    I agree that HP/Palm really needs to advertise, and not just in a small way. People need to see/hear about the Pre Plus and Pre 2 on TV, and not some stupid advertisement where no one understands that it is a phone advertisement for HP/Palm until the end. People need to see that WebOS devices are great devices right from the beginning of the commercial.

    Now, AT&T and Blackberry have been advertising the Blackberry Torch, which is NOT a great device and is really just a clone of the Palm Pre design with some changes like a different keyboard. And guess what, people have paid attention to the advertisements. Why can't we get some GOOD advertising from HP that makes fun of all these other advertisements?

    AT&T makes it seem like the Blackberry Torch is some really innovative device that reinvents the smartphone when it is only a huge step forward for a Blackberry, but was worlds behind the other devices out there. If AT&T can spark interest in the Torch, HP should have ZERO problem getting people to at least look into the Pre Plus and Pre 2. Why not do some real promotion EARLY, to show that a phone doesn't have to be a monster phone to be good?
    The post above yours spells it out.

    No amount of advertising is going to stop the Droid domination on Verizon, short of the introduction of the Verizon iPhone. Verizon isn't going to stick their neck out for WebOS, especially when you consider the amount of $$ they've already thrown into the Droid branding.

    I realize that HP wanted some hardware out in the market during the holidays, however, I just feel that this overall is going to be a bad move.

    Launching on a carrier that doesn't give a damn about your offering and launching with a form factor and hardware that's quite similar to the shoddy Pre.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. HP had better make a huge splash @ CES, or it's going to be lights out. Their margin for error is virtually nil.
  5. ahitz's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Targon View Post
    AT&T makes it seem like the Blackberry Torch is some really innovative device that reinvents the smartphone when it is only a huge step forward for a Blackberry, but was worlds behind the other devices out there. If AT&T can spark interest in the Torch, HP should have ZERO problem getting people to at least look into the Pre Plus and Pre 2. Why not do some real promotion EARLY, to show that a phone doesn't have to be a monster phone to be good?
    Because it's a waste of money when their real killer phones are coming out in 2011. The fixed costs for the Pre 2 were low and already sunk: the phone was probably already (re)designed and into testing, with manufacturing deals arranged. Might as well crank some out. Put it on verizon to make it attractive to businesses and offer some good deals to companies or bundles with with computers and printers, and you'll move the devices out there. Do you really want a marketing blitz followed by people going into Verizon and trying out the Pre 2 and thinking "Palm = meh", when you could wait for CES and a major push with (hopefully) awesome devices?

    The Torch, like the Storm 1 & 2, spark interest because there is a huge base of people who have a Blackberry, work at companies where the only smartphones allowed are Blackberries, or equate "smartphone" only with Blackberry & iPhone. Just say is "blackberry + touchscreen!" and you have those people interested. Of course, the torch didn't sell all that well, did it? We don't even know if it was worth the ad dollars.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahitz View Post
    Because it's a waste of money when their real killer phones are coming out in 2011. The fixed costs for the Pre 2 were low and already sunk: the phone was probably already (re)designed and into testing, with manufacturing deals arranged. Might as well crank some out. Put it on verizon to make it attractive to businesses and offer some good deals to companies or bundles with with computers and printers, and you'll move the devices out there. Do you really want a marketing blitz followed by people going into Verizon and trying out the Pre 2 and thinking "Palm = meh", when you could wait for CES and a major push with (hopefully) awesome devices?
    That's the thing, tho. Whatever is coming at CES is just something we HOPE will be X, Y, and Z. The Palm Pre 2 is here and real now. If you don't have the confidence to stand behind the product, kill it!

    Microsoft sunk many, many hundreds of millions into developing and launching the Kin. When they saw it was a debacle, they didn't say "Eh, what can it hurt? Cut the prices and give away some Microsoft gift cards so people will take them off our hands. Let's try and wring a bit more money out of this." They got that thing out of public view within days. Whatever piddling sales they got from that would cost them more in terms of negative customer impressions (or as you put it...meh) and confusion with the ostensibly "super" Palm devices to come down the road.

    So now, we have the launch of "meh" on the nation's largest carrier. Is that really going to prime the pump for a successful relaunch and increased developer attention? No? Then, why put it out? It's just like that stupid eZeen tablet/printer garbage. It's a bad concept compunded by the decision to execute and put an undetermined number of these out there to pollute the waters when you're switching to an entirely different OS and will never support this. All that does is erode customer confidence.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    That's the thing, tho. Whatever is coming at CES is just something we HOPE will be X, Y, and Z. The Palm Pre 2 is here and real now. If you don't have the confidence to stand behind the product, kill it!

    Microsoft sunk many, many hundreds of millions into developing and launching the Kin. When they saw it was a debacle, they didn't say "Eh, what can it hurt? Cut the prices and give away some Microsoft gift cards so people will take them off our hands. Let's try and wring a bit more money out of this." They got that thing out of public view within days. Whatever piddling sales they got from that would cost them more in terms of negative customer impressions (or as you put it...meh) and confusion with the ostensibly "super" Palm devices to come down the road.

    So now, we have the launch of "meh" on the nation's largest carrier. Is that really going to prime the pump for a successful relaunch and increased developer attention? No? Then, why put it out? It's just like that stupid eZeen tablet/printer garbage. It's a bad concept compunded by the decision to execute and put an undetermined number of these out there to pollute the waters when you're switching to an entirely different OS and will never support this. All that does is erode customer confidence.
    Agree...

    Anyone sitting by waiting for something spectacular smartphone related from CES could realistically be disappointed.
    Severely disappointed.
  8. ahitz's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Microsoft sunk many, many hundreds of millions into developing and launching the Kin. When they saw it was a debacle, they didn't say "Eh, what can it hurt? Cut the prices and give away some Microsoft gift cards so people will take them off our hands. Let's try and wring a bit more money out of this." They got that thing out of public view within days.
    The Pre 2 isn't a debacle like the Kin. It's a good phone, not an amazing one. Samsung, LG, Motorola, RIM, etc. all regularly put out mid-tier smartphones without a ton of fanfare that sell decently and are received just fine. Why? Because they DON'T market them as flagship devices.

    Nobody is saying Palm doesn't stand behind the Pre 2. In fact, it's a pretty good demonstration of webOS 2.0 and solid hardware. Unlike on the too-slow, cheap-feeling Pre, it's not hard for someone to use a Pre 2 and think "man, if they put a big bright screen on this and some great cameras, it'd be fantastic". Sounds like "priming the pump" to me (as long as the DO have awesome hardware on the way).

    I totally agree Verizon reps need to be more incentivized to learn about or push the devices, so the OPs post is disappointing even though it's not suprising. Maybe they just haven't gotten their packages with new HP training materials and fat bonus opportunities. :P
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahitz View Post
    The Pre 2 isn't a debacle like the Kin. It's a good phone, not an amazing one. Samsung, LG, Motorola, RIM, etc. all regularly put out mid-tier smartphones without a ton of fanfare that sell decently and are received just fine. Why? Because they DON'T market them as flagship devices.
    But the Palm Pre is the literal successor to the flagship WebOS device for 18 months and counting. Releasing this "meh" device cheapens the brand. It's not like "Pre" applies to a wide range of devices like "Droid". It's just for the supposed crown jewel thus far. The original launched at CES with much fanfare. This one slunk out to the public on one foreign carrier and very little notice.

    Also, what does it say when the first product to be released from the combined might of HP and Palm is described by its FANS as "mid-tier" and "Just fine"? I'm not sure that's what either of those firms are in business to produce: "Just fine" device and software.

    Nobody is saying Palm doesn't stand behind the Pre 2. In fact, it's a pretty good demonstration of webOS 2.0 and solid hardware. Unlike on the too-slow, cheap-feeling Pre, it's not hard for someone to use a Pre 2 and think "man, if they put a big bright screen on this and some great cameras, it'd be fantastic". Sounds like "priming the pump" to me (as long as the DO have awesome hardware on the way).
    It's insane to think that a company designs a device, goes through all of the trouble of manufacturing, refining, carrier testing, and so on simply to get people to dream about wanting it in another device. Just insane.

    As for Palm standing behind it, again...who releases a phone with a press release and dump onto one French carrier? WebOS 2.0 is apparently ready for public consumption, so why isn't it on every Pre and Pre Plus in existence? The carriers can only really hold it up in the US. It should already be to other Pre devices abroad. Why didn't all of the publications who reviewed the Pre the first time around bother reviewing WebOS 2.0 aside from Engadget? Why aren't we swimming in user reviews for the new hardware?

    Not very encouraging.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It's insane to think that a company designs a device, goes through all of the trouble of manufacturing, refining, carrier testing, and so on simply to get people to dream about wanting it in another device. Just insane.

    As for Palm standing behind it, again...who releases a phone with a press release and dump onto one French carrier? WebOS 2.0 is apparently ready for public consumption, so why isn't it on every Pre and Pre Plus in existence? The carriers can only really hold it up in the US. It should already be to other Pre devices abroad. Why didn't all of the publications who reviewed the Pre the first time around bother reviewing WebOS 2.0 aside from Engadget? Why aren't we swimming in user reviews for the new hardware?

    Not very encouraging.
    Business as usual for Palm. On the other hand, HP should be embarrassed.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Business as usual for Palm. On the other hand, HP should be embarrassed.
    Why would they? They don't even acknowledge its existence. I can't find any ordering link or even mention of the Palm Pre 2 on HP's site - and this is the fastest, most modern, and most capable smartphone they currently offer!

    It's not even like "Buy the Palm Pre Plus...The Palm Pixi Plus...aaaaaaaand...cough*the Palm Pre 2*cough. Hey...what's that over there?!"

    There's just....nothing. What other company would hit a plateau like 2.0 with new hardware, and essentially hide it? These are both American-based companies, right? Why hide the goods away if this is the next generation of blah blah blah?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Why would they? They don't even acknowledge its existence. I can't find any ordering link or even mention of the Palm Pre 2 on HP's site - and this is the fastest, most modern, and most capable smartphone they currently offer!

    It's not even like "Buy the Palm Pre Plus...The Palm Pixi Plus...aaaaaaaand...cough*the Palm Pre 2*cough. Hey...what's that over there?!"

    There's just....nothing. What other company would hit a plateau like 2.0 with new hardware, and essentially hide it? These are both American-based companies, right? Why hide the goods away if this is the next generation of blah blah blah?
    HP logo right there...

    Palm France | Palm Pre 2 téléphone | Fonctions, Details
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Why would they? They don't even acknowledge its existence. I can't find any ordering link or even mention of the Palm Pre 2 on HP's site - and this is the fastest, most modern, and most capable smartphone they currently offer!

    It's not even like "Buy the Palm Pre Plus...The Palm Pixi Plus...aaaaaaaand...cough*the Palm Pre 2*cough. Hey...what's that over there?!"

    There's just....nothing. What other company would hit a plateau like 2.0 with new hardware, and essentially hide it? These are both American-based companies, right? Why hide the goods away if this is the next generation of blah blah blah?
    I've posted similar thoughts a while back. The only reasons i've seen written about is HP wants to get 2.0 devices out. Sort of a developer phone.

    This, of course, is silly. Not to mention the fact that devs already have Pre's and 2.0 should be sent out to their devices. Plus how does it help get 2.0 apps ready for any supposed slab device at CES which hopefully have more hardware features than the Pre or Pre 2?

    HP's best choice was to dump the Pre and wait on webOS 2 til they had a slab device. Let that name Pre mean something. A second (or is it third?) Pre-quel wasn't needed.

    I have zero confidence that HP can make webOS a success. Most likely they'll cut their losses later and adopt android 3.0 or make a go with windows.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToniCipriani View Post
    That's Palm's site, and the American Palm site has a page for it as well. I specifically mentioned HP's site since they're the one out of the two actually selling the devices.

    My point still stands....two American companies get together with tons of resources and IP between them. They release a 2.0 and brand new device...on one carrier in France. Why? Why isn't the software distributed to the other WebOS devices abroad that don't need carrier approval like the ones who got 1.4.5 back in the summer? Why was this released with just a press release? Why was the hardware called pre-production when it came out on SFR just days after embargo?
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    That's Palm's site, and the American Palm site has a page for it as well. I specifically mentioned HP's site since they're the one out of the two actually selling the devices
    Interesting - it's HP webOS and HP Synergy in French too.
  16. joe1blue's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToniCipriani View Post
    This sounds like the headphone jack problem...
    I have went through just about the same amount of pre's as you did but now I'm really getting tired of this fragel phone one drop and it's over :'(

    [i]-- Sent from my Palm PrPrPr
  17. ahitz's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But the Palm Pre is the literal successor to the flagship WebOS device for 18 months and counting. Releasing this "meh" device cheapens the brand.
    Sure, but the "Pre" brand was already tarnished. Replacing it with more solid hardware doesn't make it worse. The Storm 2 was still mediocre, but it improved the impression of the Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Also, what does it say when the first product to be released from the combined might of HP and Palm is described by its FANS as "mid-tier" and "Just fine"? I'm not sure that's what either of those firms are in business to produce: "Just fine" device and software.
    This is not the combined might of HP and Palm. Most believe this was just Palm, while facing financial uncertainty, and then delayed by the acquisition.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It's insane to think that a company designs a device, goes through all of the trouble of manufacturing, refining, carrier testing, and so on simply to get people to dream about wanting it in another device.
    I agree. I never said this was the main reason for its existence. They need a decent developer phone. Getting the old Pre off the shelves doesn't hurt (too bad it's still at Sprint).. HP may want something they can sell through their corporate channels. The new magical unicorn devices aren't ready. This already went through design, refinement, and some testing. Manufacturing and assembly are just a few tweaks from the old process. If you can manufacture it for less than you sell it, why not? Again, how does having this on the shelf instead of a Pre hurt anything? It's certainly no worse, and you aren't out there telling people it's the best phone ever. It's a good phone at a reasonable price and will perform well for people who don't need a huge screen.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I've posted similar thoughts a while back. The only reasons i've seen written about is HP wants to get 2.0 devices out. Sort of a developer phone.

    This, of course, is silly. Not to mention the fact that devs already have Pre's and 2.0 should be sent out to their devices. Plus how does it help get 2.0 apps ready for any supposed slab device at CES which hopefully have more hardware features than the Pre or Pre 2?
    Exxxxxactly. And if this is an intended developer device, why is this what developers see when they try to purchase one now from Palm? Getting them out to SFR for immediate sale was a bigger priority than getting them out to developers? And why would this be the target developer phone if Rahul Sood's "hot hardware" is going to be announced at CES? Maybe they expect them to buy a tablet and a Pre 2?
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by ahitz View Post
    I agree. I never said this was the main reason for its existence. They need a decent developer phone. Getting the old Pre off the shelves doesn't hurt (too bad it's still at Sprint).. HP may want something they can sell through their corporate channels. The new magical unicorn devices aren't ready. This already went through design, refinement, and some testing. Manufacturing and assembly are just a few tweaks from the old process. If you can manufacture it for less than you sell it, why not? Again, how does having this on the shelf instead of a Pre hurt anything? It's certainly no worse, and you aren't out there telling people it's the best phone ever. It's a good phone at a reasonable price and will perform well for people who don't need a huge screen.
    It hurts for the same reason the Pixi hurt Palm pre-HP: It's a distraction. Apple COULD release a 7-inch iPad or a 4.3-inch iPhone or any number of variants on their star devices to experiment with different form factors or find out what works or doesn't work. They have the money and the manufacturing resources.

    So why don't they? Because it's a waste that tarnishes their brand and screws up their focus.

    Likewise, why is HP or Palm putting out a product they cannot hold a gala launch event for and have all of the American tech sites review extensively? Why are they putting out a product that is hidden away on one foreign carrier? Why are they limiting the software to that same one carrier?

    Finallly - and I cannot stress this enough - no company of this size and professional reputation should be putting out products for the reason of "Why not?". That's just not acceptable.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It hurts for the same reason the Pixi hurt Palm pre-HP: It's a distraction. Apple COULD release a 7-inch iPad or a 4.3-inch iPhone or any number of variants on their star devices to experiment with different form factors or find out what works or doesn't work. They have the money and the manufacturing resources.

    So why don't they? Because it's a waste that tarnishes their brand and screws up their focus.

    Likewise, why is HP or Palm putting out a product they cannot hold a gala launch event for and have all of the American tech sites review extensively? Why are they putting out a product that is hidden away on one foreign carrier? Why are they limiting the software to that same one carrier?

    Finallly - and I cannot stress this enough - no company of this size and professional reputation should be putting out products for the reason of "Why not?". That's just not acceptable.
    It's not acceptable, but that's just what they've done.

    Thanks for bringing up branding , because I think that's lost to many on the WebOS bandwagon.

    The release of this phone does nothing but tarnish the brand. It makes an already tarnished brand worse. Why?

    Firstly, it's another one of these signature Palm launches, ie, there isn't one.

    Secondly, instead of trying to reignite the brand with something fresh, it's the same old, same old.

    As I said earlier, all this does is put more pressure on HP to really make a market breakthrough @ CES. I'm not at all confident they can.

    HP buying Palm is going to be the end of WebOS, period. Sure they'll half *** market it for a while, through out a connected device or two, throw together some flashy advertising, but at the end of the day, HP's culture and the culture that brought WebOS into fruition is apples to oranges.

    This entire endeavor will wind up being a footnote in a P&L statement, and they'll move on. Sad too, because I really think WebOS had a chance. Staring down the impending doom of iOS, Windows Phone, and Android, along with the complete ineptitude of HP, will be it's downfall.
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