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  1. #41  
    Yep, Palm's worst enemy isn't apple or android, it's Palm.

    The Pixi was terrible and ill conceived from the start. That they're having bugs like this with it is just laughable at this point.

    Would 1.3 even be a problem for the Pre if Palm wasn't wasting resources on this crap Pixi? Heck, they might even be on 1.6 by now if they hadn't wasted time with the Pixer.
  2. #42  
    The Pixi was terrible and ill conceived from the start.

    Umm, speak for yourself. I have a couple family members who are really impressed by the Pixi's form factor and keyboard, which are the key decision points for them. Not everybody cares about having the most "geek-friendly" or feature-packed device. Believe it or not, some folks will be satisfied with a good keyboard for messaging and a good web browser for Facebook, but at the same time will appreciate the attractiveness and user-friendliness of webOS. The Pixi should be able to attract entry-level smartphone customers on Sprint who are overwhelmed by the complexity of Android.

    Really, isn't Palm just following the model they used for the Centro, which was probably their most successful device in the past couple of years. Considering that the build quality and the slider design of the Pre has turned off at lot of potential customers, I think it's a good thing that Palm is offering two very distinct platforms to run WebOS. I believe that a lot of the commentary about why would anyone go for the Pixi when Big Brother Pre is only $50 more misses the point about the appeal of Little Sister Pixi.
  3. #43  
    I agree. I hate the Pre's form factor. I'm willing to give up all the pros of the Pre for the Pixi's form factor. I love my Centro and always said, since returning my Pre in July, they need to fix the bugs (mostly addressed since then) and put one out in a Centro form factor. So the Pixi is right on for me and many people like me...but this EVDO bug is a whole 'nother story!
  4. pjs
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    #44  
    I agree with danspalmone and weenarz1176.

    I am very impressed with the pixi form factor. The size and most importantly the weight of it are just amazing for what it can do. Also seems to be very well constructed -- my biggest concern about durability is that I just know it's going to accidentally go through the wash eventually because I won't notice it's in a pocket.

    The keyboard is great too. Right up there with a treo 650 IMO.

    Fix this EVDO issue and the lack of wifi will not matter for most people.
  5. #45  
    I noticed my PRL was 60657 when I got the Pixi. After updating from 1.2.9.1 to 1.3.1, the PRL was at 60654. I updated the PRL back to 60657 and I honestly haven't seen any slowness in the phone. Its VERY snappy. It seems faster than my Pre, but I don't have as many accounts and things on it yet. Just the one google account. Anyway, this may help, its worth a shot....
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by pjs View Post
    Sorry, I just got my Pre on Pixi launch day and upgraded to 1.3.1 immediately so I don't have experience with 1.2.1.
    Well.. you can get the 1.2.1 Doctor and reflash your phone back to that version, if you really care to test and see what the real problem is. Maybe it is a bug in 1.3.1, but maybe it's just the Pixi.

    Quote Originally Posted by jello3d View Post
    Again, after extensive testing, even with 5 bars of EVDO coverage, the problem exists. Sometimes it is more or less depending on what you're doing, and switching between EVDO and 1x in a fringe area may exacerbate it, but it is always present no matter the EVDO connection you have.

    The issue disappears all together with 1x.

    The problem is in the code, not the EVDO network.
    The problem is the processor, not the code. I'd be willing to bet that it'd stutter like this with wifi, too... which is why they didn't drop it in there.

    Everybody always mentioned the 3 downgrades with Pixi -- screen resolution/size, no wifi, & camera downgrade. Hardly anybody but me mentioned that the Pixi would not come with the Cortex A8. I'll really be surprised if they can fix this "bug". Again... going with the different CPU/GPU was a huge mistake for Palm.
  7.    #47  
    The Pixi will not flash to 1.2.1 with the doctor, and if it does it will brick the phone. Pixi's codebase start at 1.2.9.

    The code for two different processor/GPU sets is similar, but obviously different. The Pixi's CPU is more than capable of doing the things people are experiencing lag with, as is made obvious by the fact that it runs great (often faster than the Pre) in 1x mode.

    It is a code/radio BUG, not a design flaw, period.

    If you feel it is otherwise, provide some evidence and testable bits for the argument.
  8. pjs
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Well.. you can get the 1.2.1 Doctor and reflash your phone back to that version, if you really care to test and see what the real problem is. Maybe it is a bug in 1.3.1, but maybe it's just the Pixi.
    Thanks for the advice, but I'll pass on that for now. If it really is a problem on 1.3.1 that affects the Pre in poor EVDO areas, other people should be reporting the same thing soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    The problem is the processor, not the code. I'd be willing to bet that it'd stutter like this with wifi, too... which is why they didn't drop it in there.
    The Cortex A8 architecture is great, but it's not going to provide a 10 to 100 fold performance improvement over an ARM11. That's the kind of difference we are seeing here. I think this still feels like a software bug, possibly introduced in 1.3.1, hopefully one that can be fixed very soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Everybody always mentioned the 3 downgrades with Pixi -- screen resolution/size, no wifi, & camera downgrade. Hardly anybody but me mentioned that the Pixi would not come with the Cortex A8. I'll really be surprised if they can fix this "bug". Again... going with the different CPU/GPU was a huge mistake for Palm.
    I agree with you but mainly because I would have liked to see more "identical" handsets from Palm to make devs lives easier. I really think that might help the platform take hold. Apple sold virtually identical iPhones for two years, whereas Android is already fragmented. Palm had the option of not fragmenting and on their second handset they are already changing things up.

    I'm willing to bet that the reason there is no wifi (another chip on the board), Cortex A8 (another chip on the board -- the MSM is single chip solution), and larger screen is that these things just wouldn't fit in the Pixi form factor. Having used the Pixi for a while, I agree with Palm's decision. Now they just need to fix this bug.

    How's that for optimism?
  9. #49  
    Now this is weird. I changed to 1x to see if it helped and it seemed to, then I decided to see the difference in the lag using a specific page (Google Maps) so switched back to EVDO Rev A and the lag is fixed. At least so far for the past few minutes anyway. I am flying thru web pages, can move between cards without any hesitation and can open applications (email, calendar, etc) almost instantly (maybe a second or two). Could it be that switching to 1x and then swithcing back could have fixed the bug??? Seems silly, but also seems to be working for me.
    Last edited by Duzer; 11/17/2009 at 05:01 PM.
  10.    #50  
    Any reboot seems to temporarily fix the lag, including those needed when switching between 1x and EVDO modes. I haven't been able to identify a specific series of tasks necessary to induce the lag reliably, I just know that once it starts, it happens a lot.
  11. #51  
    Bummer, I was hoping mine was cured.
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    #52  
    sounds like a low level problem of an internal data cache getting full, either by design or accident, and not getting properly flushed, then the pixi loses it's "breathing room", and chokes.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by jello3d View Post
    The Pixi will not flash to 1.2.1 with the doctor, and if it does it will brick the phone. Pixi's codebase start at 1.2.9.
    Right... that was for pjs who said he was having the same issue on his Pre with 1.3.1... if he Doctored his Pre back to 1.2.1, he could then tell if this was something that was just introduced with the latest version of webOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by jello3d View Post
    The code for two different processor/GPU sets is similar, but obviously different. The Pixi's CPU is more than capable of doing the things people are experiencing lag with, as is made obvious by the fact that it runs great (often faster than the Pre) in 1x mode.

    It is a code/radio BUG, not a design flaw, period.
    I don't think so. It's definitely not a "radio bug", otherwise you wouldn't be able to download a file straight without hiccups. The hiccups start when the processor gets overloaded with javascript, just like I explained to you a couple nights ago. Or at least that's my theory. I really do need to visit the Sprint store to check out a Pixi at 1xRTT operate faster than my Pre with EVDO. Can't wait to see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jello3d View Post
    If you feel it is otherwise, provide some evidence and testable bits for the argument.
    Ehh... you already said that it you could download a large file at EVDO speeds with no problem. What more info do you need?

    Quote Originally Posted by pjs View Post
    Thanks for the advice, but I'll pass on that for now. If it really is a problem on 1.3.1 that affects the Pre in poor EVDO areas, other people should be reporting the same thing soon.
    Well... that's why you could easily Doctor you Pre to 1.2.1 to see if that's really something that's introduced with 1.3.1 or if it's just Pixi-based.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjs View Post
    The Cortex A8 architecture is great, but it's not going to provide a 10 to 100 fold performance improvement over an ARM11. That's the kind of difference we are seeing here. I think this still feels like a software bug, possibly introduced in 1.3.1, hopefully one that can be fixed very soon.
    I don't think you realize how resource intensive webOS is. But I hope that you're right in that it can be fixed. There's always a way to optimize something, but I don't think they'll ever be able to get all the lag on a Pixi, at least not without GPU support in the OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjs View Post
    I agree with you but mainly because I would have liked to see more "identical" handsets from Palm to make devs lives easier. I really think that might help the platform take hold. Apple sold virtually identical iPhones for two years, whereas Android is already fragmented. Palm had the option of not fragmenting and on their second handset they are already changing things up.
    Word. I still can't get over that decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjs View Post
    I'm willing to bet that the reason there is no wifi (another chip on the board), Cortex A8 (another chip on the board -- the MSM is single chip solution), and larger screen is that these things just wouldn't fit in the Pixi form factor.
    They could've done it, but they wanted to be cheapskates. Fine by me... it's not my company.

    Quote Originally Posted by pjs View Post
    Having used the Pixi for a while, I agree with Palm's decision. Now they just need to fix this bug.

    How's that for optimism?
    Nice! I was worried about the processor on the Pixi, because I thought the speed of the Centro was the reason most people liked it over the Treo, along with the size. The Centro was snappier... the Pixi's got lag. If you think that the lag is not totally unbearable, then I might have to check one out sooner than expected. I'll more than likely make the Pixi2 my next phone... provided that they don't call it the Pixi2.

    But I'm glad it's not as big o' flop as I thought it woulda been. Hopefully it does sell as well as the Centro, if not more.
  14.    #54  
    I appreciate what you are saying, but again, 1.2.1 is not compatible with the Pixi at all. The Doctor will not install 1.2.1 to a Pixi. Don't try it, because if it winds up being successful for some reason, the phone will likely be bricked.


    Regarding the slow processor vs software bug issue -

    Last night I went into Airplane mode. Opened 20 cards, several instances of the browser (not loading pages, obviously), some games, etc. and the Pixi was still as snappy as a Pre would be.

    Under 1x I opened the same 20 cards (websites loading this time) and the Pixi was still as snappy, the websites were very low data intensive (i-phone formatted pages). I do have hundreds of emails, however, across 5 accounts, plus about 600 contacts.

    Under both EVDO A and EVDO 0, the game cards opened fine, but as I started opening mail and browser cards I experienced several lag before the 7th card and it was virtually unusable by the 15th.

    Now, what you're tell me is, because the Pixi's processor is slow, the rate at which EVDO data flows is soooo fast, that the CPU can't handle the Javascript load and has to catch up. But then why can I load all these cards with the same amount of data in 1x mode about 10 times faster than I can in any EVDO mode? Some of the pages didn't even load in EVDO mode.

    Put a Pre and Pixi side by side in 1x or airplane mode and you'll see the Pixi is on par, if not faster in many cases. Something is choking the system to the point of a freeze, and it's more than just waiting for the CPU to catch up with the EVDO data rate, it is a bug that is causing the OS to literally freeze for long periods of time, even at low data volume... and cease to be functional when multiple cards are doing concurrent actions. But only when the EVDO radio is on.

    That's as clear as I can make it, does that make more sense?

    Thanks
  15. pjs
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    #55  
    grndslm and jello3c, don't worry I knew that neither of you wanted me to put 1.2.1 on a Pixi.

    jello3d, great work on this experiment. You seem to be on to something here. One thing I'm interested in the EVDO signal strength when you are doing this. All of my experiments so far have been at home where EVDO is pretty bad. 1xRTT works great but evdo is not as good. If you are seeing this behavior with a good strong EVDO signal then that is news.

    I would not rely on just looking at bars here. I would instead use ##debug# to look at "Receive Signal Strength (EVDO)", which is also known as EVDO RSSI. Open the phone app in one card and something data-intensive like Google Maps in another. The EVDO RSSI will only be valid when Data State (two lines down) reads "Evdo Active". I'm at the office now (with my Pre) where EVDO works pretty well for me and EVDO RSSI is -67dBm. At home where EVDO is spotty (and I see lag) EVDO RSSI tends to read much lower, around -90 to -100dBm if I recall correctly.

    I'm curious to know what EVDO signal strength you see. It's possible that my issues are simply because I get better 1xRTT RSSI than I do EVDO RSSI at home. I haven't borrowed the Pixi yet to see how it performs somewhere else.
  16.    #56  
    Sitting next to my home computer, where most of the work has been done, I get -85 to -95.

    At work, -40

    I've had instances of severe lag in both places... but I haven't done a standard test yet.
  17. mlbizzle's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by supercluver View Post
    I noticed my PRL was 60657 when I got the Pixi. After updating from 1.2.9.1 to 1.3.1, the PRL was at 60654. I updated the PRL back to 60657 and I honestly haven't seen any slowness in the phone. Its VERY snappy. It seems faster than my Pre, but I don't have as many accounts and things on it yet. Just the one google account. Anyway, this may help, its worth a shot....
    How do I update my PRL? I will give this a shot... For the time being I have switched to Hybrid EVDO rev0 - damn... BIG improvement!
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    #58  
    Well.. I set it back to Rev A now.. & as Dozer said - working GREAT.. As in super super great. Guess I wait for it to get bad again.. Or hopefully a PRL update will fix it?
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    #59  
    Has anyone posted this on the official Palm.com forum?
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    #60  
    im having the same lag issue.... its a major issue..... try to load 2 web pages at once and all hell brakes loose
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