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  1.    #1  
    Hi, guys
    I live in Italy, an I'm an heavy gprs/edge/umts user, actually I own a a nokia 6630 trimode mobile.

    With the nokia the my average speed (in edge mode) is very very close to the tehoretical maximum value of 236 Kbps.
    Now I'm interested in the treo 650 and I'm near to buying one of these devices.

    My question is the treo is IN EDGE a 4+2 (class 10) device or is only an ugly 3+1 (class 6)?

    In the official documentation the only mention to timeslots is referred to GPRS mode only, and looking around in the forums seem that the US networks are a lot of worse than the European ones and the posters are speaking about speeds about 60/80/90Kbps that is from about a quarter to half the speed of my nokia with the TIM provider.

    Anyone has some clearer ideas about the treo 650 modem ?
    thanks in advance and apologies for my poor English.
  2. alee's Avatar
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    #2  
    It's a class 10 EDGE modem
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by alee
    It's a class 10 EDGE modem
    I'm sorry, but where you can get this information, or what are the motivation of Your conclusion ?
    Last edited by The Solutor; 10/22/2005 at 09:46 PM.
  4. holmes4's Avatar
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    #4  
    GSM/GPRS/EDGE quad-band
    world phone, 850/900/1800/
    1900 MHz Class 10, Class B
    http://www.palm.com/us/products/smar..._gsmdsheet.pdf
  5. #5  
    WTF why can't some people just take the information they're given.. Or research it themselves in the first place.
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by khaytsus
    WTF why can't some people just take the information they're given..

    Simpy because "some people" are thinking that the informatio are wrong or , at least, non clear.

    Or research it themselves in the first place.
    As I wrote in the my first post, this information is not provided by palm, I'm not used to ask stupid question.

    As you can see, "class 10" is referred to the gprs service not to the edge one.

    A lot of terminals are gprs class 10 but edge class 6, like motorla v547 (v555 in US) v635, some low end nokias and maybe others.

    Now, if you are able to answer my (not so stupid) question you are welcome.


    In other words if you are able to download a file at any (average) speed from 177Kbps to 236Kbps, the treo is a class 10, if you are able to reach maximum speed of 177 Kbps the treo is a class 6, if you reach lower speed you are using a crappy provider.
  7. #7  
    You do realize that maximum speeds by specifications are usually nowhere near real world results, right? Just because the specs say 177-236, it doesn't mean you're going to see it. Maybe on an empty tower at close range, and then likely the "laywers" get some of it, as I like to say..

    I personally see about 135kbit on Cingular. Raw download speed doesn't bother me, the latency of 800ms+ does.

    Anyway, pointless discussion, it's right in the specsheet you can find on Palm's website, as linked above.
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by khaytsus
    You do realize that maximum speeds by specifications are usually nowhere near real world results, right?

    Do you realýze what I'm writing in the above post ?

    with my nokia 6630 i have a constant download speed of 28/29 KBps (AKA 224/232 Kbps) that is not the maximum teorical speed but is not like the values are you posted. 135 KBps is a tipical value for a (not so bright) class 6 modem.

    I'm afraid that palm are joking you, with unclear documentation tath you has blindly accepted.

    I'm sorry this is not a "pointless question" is a pointless answer
  9. #9  
    Using the Treo 650 and Sony Ericcson GC83 PC card, both of which are class 10 EDGE, I get the same identical EDGE download performance.
    On Cingular and T-Mobile in California I get a consistent 185kbps. On average my performance is closer to 100-120 over a 1 min period, but that's because my download speed fluctuates between 185kbs and 80kbs which is a network (load) issue, not a phone modem issue.

    I don't know if I'ver 200kbps or more. But I never saw it while watching the windows XP performance meter (which is where I get data.) The way the perfmon pegs at about 185, my assumption is that this was always the absolute max.

    Conclusion is that the T650 is just as fast as a class 10 EDGE dedicated PC card, whatever that may be in your area.
  10.    #10  
    thanks a lot taylorh.

    For your detailed answer, all my values are measured with DUmeter (or its freeware clone NETmeter) with the "show average values" enabled, so when I speak about average I intend true average values.

    If you prefer I can download a 700 MB iso in about 7 hours.

    Can you try with the same method your values ? Because I have a new finding to support my first opinion

    From the US manual of treo 650 (page 205)


    GSM850/900/1800/1900 quad band world phone
    GPRS Class 10, Class B;also supports CSD
    EDGE up to 170Kbps
    The same phrase is present in the italian pdf.

    Now 170 KBps mean 3 edge timeslots

    1 timeslot = 59.2
    2 timeslots = 118.4
    3 timeslots = 177.6
    4 timeslots = 236.8

    I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm right
    Last edited by The Solutor; 10/23/2005 at 02:08 PM.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Solutor
    thanks a lot taylorh.

    For your detailed answer, all my values are measured with DUmeter (or its freeware clone NETmeter) with the "show average values" enabled, so when I speak about average I intend true average values.

    If you prefer I can download a 700 MB iso in about 7 hours.

    Can you try with the same method your values ? Because I have a new finding to support my first opinion

    From the US manual of treo 650 (page 205)

    The same phrase is present in the italian pdf.

    Now 170 KBps mean 3 edge timeslots

    1 timeslot = 59.2
    2 timeslots = 118.4
    3 timeslots = 177.6
    4 timeslots = 236.8

    I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm right
    We have 4 time slots and a theoretical max of 236.8 just as this pdf says, but you do no achieve theoretical max. The actual maximum throughput on EDGE is about 211. I'm amazed you can get 222 avg over 7 hours. I've never observed over 196 in my 'tests' the last time I tested I was getting 185 if I remember correctly. Though I've heard you can get 220, I've never known anyone to do it.
    If I were only getting 3 time slots, I'd be quoting speeds around 135kbps max, probabally about 80 average.

    I know for a fact that I have class 10 EDGE and I'm getting 4x time slots.
    I can try your method. I don't know if I have time today but I'll try to do so tonight or tomorrow and see what I get.
    The limitation in my case is undoubtedly network load (we have a very congested network,) environmental conditions, the way Cingular has things configured, etc. It's possible that if I were to use the isp.cingular access point (which I don't pay for/can't try) I might get higher since it's the laptop access point (not the the wap APN that I use) but from all of the obsessive comparisons we've made on here I doubt it'd be much different.
    Rest assured it's class 10 (4x down, 1x up) and my numbers are based on Cingular here in the US. In California specifically. I know that in almost all other parts of the US people get faster speeds than I do. Perhaps in italy they have a better implementaiton of EDGE where more bandwidth and dedicated time slots available. I know on Cingular a certain amount of data will be robbed of air time to give voice a priority. Also we have a very high concentration of Treo 650s and data hungry devices in this area.

    The real question is if you'll get the same performance on the Treo as you do your Nokia 6630. The 6630 also does UMTS which leads me to believe it may be have a newer/better radio processor capable of more efficient or slightly higher EDGE peroformance than the Treo. Just a possibility, I don't know if that's even likely.
    The treo is class 10, it does 4 time slots. I don't think any of us can tell you if it will be as fast as the nokia. I can tell you it's at least as fast as my laptop PC card.
    I know the answer you your question is undoubtedly class 10, 4 time slots down. That's about all I (we) can really tell you. EDGE can perform differently on different networks.
    Last edited by taylorh; 10/23/2005 at 02:42 PM.
  12. #12  
    Well, there is something I would like to add. I work with cingular in the Atlanta area. And I know they limit data connections to three slots only. So even if you have a class 10 Edge device you can only reach class 6 speed.
  13.    #13  
    I'm amazed you can get 222 avg over 7 hours.

    I had in the last month in the past year spme days with constant throughput of 29,2 KBps but the phone I'm using at the moment (nokia 6230) was not so stable and often hang (or reset itself), now the values are slightly lower.

    I have measured (roughly) these values with nokia 6230, sierra wireless 775 pccard, nokia 6280, SE GC 8X.

    In converse I've obtained values about 18/19KBps with some motorolas.

    I'm used to read same Italian forums and the my values are confirmed around my country.

    In Italy only one provider (TIM) has actually the edge services the others are going straight to UMTS (that TIM also offers in limited areas).

    I've never observed over 196 in my 'tests' the last time I tested I was getting 185 if I remember correctly. Though I've heard you can get 220, I've never known anyone to do it.
    You can get a look in some Italian forums if you can understand same of my language, and maybe in other european countrys forums

    If I were only getting 3 time slots, I'd be quoting speeds around 135kbps max, probably about 80 average.
    No, if you are only 3 TS you can get max 177Kbps (in theory) 160Kbps (in real world).

    I know for a fact that I have class 10 EDGE and I'm getting 4x time slots.
    I can try your method. I don't know if I have time today but I'll try to do so tonight or tomorrow and see what I get.
    thanks in advance

    The limitation in my case is undoubtedly network load (we have a very congested network,) environmental conditions, the way Cingular has things configured, etc. It's possible that if I were to use the isp.cingular access point (which I don't pay for/can't try) I might get higher since it's the laptop access point (not the the wap APN that I use) but from all of the obsessive comparisons we've made on here I doubt it'd be much different.

    this makes sense, obviously
    Rest assured it's class 10 (4x down, 1x up)
    Class 10 is 4 down 2 up

    Class 8 is 4 down 1 up

    and my numbers are based on Cingular here in the US. In California specifically.
    What frequencies use Cingular in CA ?

    Is not a rule but in italy connections over 900 MHz ar usually better than the 1800 ones
    Also we have a very high concentration of Treo 650s and data hungry devices in this area.
    In italy the treos are present but not so concentrated because the presence of other good devices from SE (the P series) and the enormous popularity of the nokia devices like the "series 60" devices.
    The real question is if you'll get the same performance on the Treo as you do your Nokia 6630. The 6630 also does UMTS which leads me to believe it may be have a newer/better radio processor capable of more efficient or slightly higher EDGE performance than the Treo.
    I don’t think so, all the edge only devices (of the same class) are given the same result than the trimode nokias.


    I know the answer you your question is undoubtedly class 10, 4 time slots down. That's about all I (we) can really tell you.
    What do you think about the words in the last pages of the manual ?
    Last edited by The Solutor; 10/23/2005 at 03:50 PM.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by spollo
    Well, there is something I would like to add. I work with cingular in the Atlanta area. And I know they limit data connections to three slots only. So even if you have a class 10 Edge device you can only reach class 6 speed.

    If this is true for the rest of the US, the my only chance is to buy a treo and test the speed myself
  15. #15  
    In Italy on Wind I routinely achieved 236 Kbps with my Treo 650. In the US on Cingular the best is usuallly about 135 Kbps. In addition, the phone functions, email (with Chatter) and online data functions work as they should. The phone is stable and reliable. It is only when I'm in the US that I have problems that most people report such as resets.
  16.    #16  
    In Italy on Wind I routinely achieved 236 Kbps with my Treo 650
    Are you shure, Wind ?

    In italy only TIM has the EDGE service. AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $Wind$ $has$ $tested$, $some$ $monts$ $ago$, $the$ $service$ $in$ $very$ $very$ $limited$ $zones$ $of$ $Rome$ $and$ $Milan$,$with$ $only$ $few$ $upgraded$ $BTS$, $if$ $you$ $has$ $reached$ $one$ $of$ $these$ $you$ $are$ $a$ $very$ $very$ $lucky$ $man$

    Now the entire Wind service is switched back to GPRS, and obviously to UMTS (AKA W-CDMA) available only in the main cities
    Last edited by The Solutor; 10/23/2005 at 08:52 PM.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Solutor
    Class 10 is 4 down 2 up
    Class 8 is 4 down 1 up

    What frequencies use Cingular in CA ?

    Is not a rule but in italy connections over 900 MHz ar usually better than the 1800 ones
    Class 10 EDGE is EITHER 4 down + 1 up, or 3 down + 2 up. It's a total of 5 time slots in a 4/1 or 3/2 configuration.

    Cingular in CA uses 850Mhz and 1900Mhz. I don't see any real difference in speed between the two. The only difference the frequencies really make is that lower frequencies have building penetration and range from a tower.

    It's might be the case where Cingular (and T-Mobile) limit the bandwidth here as spollo pointed out. It could in fact be limited to 3 time slots since I see about 180 max most of the time. But I have seen higher on rare occasions, so how do you explain that? Maybe it's limited to 3 here in most places most of the time but there are situations where you can get 4 or maybe at those times I was roaming on another carrier (such as EDGE wireless.) Cingular has it set up so you don't know when you're roaming (always says Cingular regardless.) I don't really know or care, just trying to clarify my experience.

    Anyway, none of this makes any difference. What jcatan said is what's important (236 on a Treo 650 in Italy.)
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  18. #18  
    I achieved it on Wind while in Calabria. Had it in Lamezia, Soverato and Regio about 1 month ago. I agree that Wind is swithching to UMTS, but in those areas I had EDGE. And yes, I was lucky for that.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh
    Class 10 EDGE is EITHER 4 down + 1 up, or 3 down + 2 up. It's a total of 5 time slots in a 4/1 or 3/2 configuration.

    Obviously, the limit of 5 total T.S. is in these days the de facto standard, and is still present in higher class configurations, like class 12 (4+4) where you can get any configuration from 4+1 to 1+4 (with the limit of 5 total T.S.)

    Cingular in CA uses 850Mhz and 1900Mhz. I don't see any real difference in speed between the two. The only difference the frequencies really make is that lower frequencies have building penetration and range from a tower.
    As i wrote is not a rule, is only a my statistic observation

    What jcatan said is what's important (236 on a Treo 650 in Italy.)
    This is not a new, are two news
  20.    #20  
    Taylorh

    Sometimes (in Italy at least) is difficult to break the 16KBps (128Kbps) barrier with a single download.

    Try with 2 or 3 simultaneous downloads or split the single download in 2 or 3 segments with a download manager like Getright, and let me know if this helps.
    Last edited by The Solutor; 10/24/2005 at 07:14 PM.
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