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  1. DHart's Avatar
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       #1  
    OK - I did the obligatory search and could not find an answer to this question:

    Does the 650 support HSPDA? If not, will the 700? support it? I am calling it the 700? because this would be for a GSM version of the new 700W announced by Verizon that is, as we know, a CDMA shop. Perhaps the GSM carriers will also offer the 700W in the future. Time will tell.

    Most of you know this already, but for those who do not, HSPDA is GSM's version of EV-DO on the CDMA side. Cingular has just completed upgrading their network in the Dallas area to support HSPDA. Other areas are in progress. Europe (as usual) is far ahead in their network upgrade.

    The exact functions of HSPDA may not be the same as EV-DO, but the results are similar. Both protocol's require an upgrade to the existing carrier's respective networks and will enable Broadband type of data download speeds. Which will enable a new generation of handsets that can accomplish multitasking. Before anyone jumps in with "Well ModelXX with OSXX can already multitask" I want to say that I am speaking of widespread adoption that is taken for granted by the general user. Not the bleeding edge user who spends a lot of effort manipulating files and waiting for long downloads. I am talking about the difference between Windows 3.1 on a $5000 386/20MHz that runs slower than a pregnant snail and Win XP on a current machine. I actually had one of those pregnant snail machines and could not understand the hype about Win 3.1. Went back to good old DOS until the hardware caught up with the software.

    I am fairly certain that the 650 does not support HSPDA, but would like to confirm that. I would also to see if anyone has seen this in the specs for the new 700. Sure hope so. Thanks for any feedback.
  2. DHart's Avatar
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       #2  
    I just realized that I didn't define multitasking in my original message. I mean handling voice and data communications simultaneously - talking on the phone and getting email or watching video on the internet.
  3. #3  
    The 650 does not support HSPDA, and since there is no announced 700 (either W or P) for GSM, then there's no way to know if it will support HSPDA or not. The only announced 700 is the 700w for Verizon, and it supports EVDO.
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  4. naivete's Avatar
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    ...I mean handling voice and data communications simultaneously ...
    I think you can only do that in the GSM realm.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by naivete
    I think you can only do that in the GSM realm.
    Neither current CDMA nor GSM technologies allow that. There's just a difference in the way they handle it. In the CDMA world, any voice calls that come in while using an active data connection go straight to voicemail. In the GSM world, the call will come in and suspend the current data connection, and pick up where it left off when the call is complete. It does not keep the data connection active, however. Neither technology allows both voice and data to keep an active connection at the same time.

    This will change however, when the new batch of broadband technologies enters the market. EVDO will not allow simultaneous active connections (but I believe it acts like the current GSM model, allowing voice and suspending data), but EVDV will allow simultaneous connections. I don't know if HSPDA will allow simultaneous connections, but I believe WCDMA does.
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  6. DHart's Avatar
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       #6  
    Thanks, jmill. I think simultaneous voice/data is a combination of network speed and handset hardware/software. The handset must be powerful enough (combination of processor speed, a multitasking OS, and internal memory) to juggle multiple streams. Ditto for the network. I think HSPDA and EV-DO both do that. But the handsets are not there yet. WCDMA has been slow in coming. Not sure why. Two years ago at Ericsson that was all they could talk about. Not saying it will not be a reality, just saying the buzz has diminished in volume. The rule in telecom is that with any new fanfare announcement of new cutting edge technology that a company states will revolutionize the industry, believe it when you can see it and use it in your hand. WCDMA is supposed to be the final convergence of GSM and CDMA. I can think of lots of reasons (none technical) why that might not happen. There are some WCDMA installations occuring in the world - just haven't heard of any in the US/Mexico.

    (Disclaimer: Believe it when you can see it and use it in your hand and is offered by a major carrier to the public. There is a new announcement daily about new cutting edge technology that someone has tested IN A LABORATORY SETTING but never seems to make it market.)
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    I think simultaneous voice/data is a combination of network speed and handset hardware/software. The handset must be powerful enough (combination of processor speed, a multitasking OS, and internal memory) to juggle multiple streams. Ditto for the network.
    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $this$ $is$ $a$ $radio$ $and$ $network$ $issue$, $not$ $a$ $handset$ $hardware$/$software$ $issue$.
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  8. Quake97's Avatar
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    #8  
    Personally, if there is going to be a GSM Treo 700 next year, it won't have UMTS/HSPDA. It's still a very new technology here in the US and Cingular won't even have it really going until next year. Smartphones aren't usually the first ones with new technology, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Joe
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by quake97
    Personally, if there is going to be a GSM Treo 700 next year, it won't have UMTS/HSPDA. It's still a very new technology here in the US and Cingular won't even have it really going until next year. Smartphones aren't usually the first ones with new technology, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Joe
    Good point. My discussion of new technologies didn't mean to imply that EVDV, HSPDA, UTMS, or WCDMA would be supported in in any 700w or p next year. I completely agree, I seriously doubt any of these will be in any flavor of Treo in 2006. You're looking at EVDO and EDGE only.

    Maybe WiFi if we're lucky.
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  10. DHart's Avatar
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       #10  
    Quake, jmill -

    Dallas and Seattle are already up. 15 to 20 other markets will be up by year end. The remainder by YE 2006. Simultaneous Voice/Data is already available thru UMTS from Cingular. You are correct this is a radio issue. The radio in the handset - which is controlled by the software in the handset - and the radios in the network. Read below...

    ------------------------------------------

    Wednesday, October 19, 2005

    Cingular expanding tech services
    Simultaneous voice and data transfer will be speeded up

    By DAN RICHMAN
    SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

    Cingular Wireless LLC, the nation's largest cellular carrier, said that by year-end, it will offer Seattle-area subscribers a new technology allowing them to speak and exchange data simultaneously, with data flowing at higher rates than has been possible until now.

    At the same time, the company said it will spend $620 million over the next 15 months to integrate the cellular network it acquired when it bought Redmond-based AT&T Wireless Services Inc. in February 2004 for $41 billion in cash.

    Cingular's newly announced technology, called HSDPA (High-Speed Downlink Packet Access), will roughly double the speed of another simultaneous-voice-and-data offering from Cingular, called UMTS (Universal Mobile Telecommunications System), spokeswoman Anne Marshall said.

    HSDPA offers download speeds between 400 kilobits per second and 700 kbps, with uploads at about 100 kbps. It allows downloading a 1-megabyte file in 15 seconds.

    "Cingular's claims to those speeds sound conservative and real-world, given that HSDPA has never been tried in the real world, only in laboratories at this point," said Charles Golvin, an analyst with Forrester Research.

    Lab tests show downloads speeds of up to 3 megabits per second, with the long-term ability to scale up to 14 mbps, Golvin said.

    "But it's a much better approach to set reasonable expectations and hope to exceed them," he added.

    Handsets and pricing for HSDPA are set for announcement by year-end.

    Cingular's slower technology, UMTS, is already available in several markets, including Seattle. That system operates at download speeds of between 200 kbps to 320 kbps, allowing a one-megabyte file to download in 30 seconds.

    Between 15 and 20 markets will get both UMTS and HSDPA by year-end, as the two technologies are being rolled out simultaneously, Marshall said. Most major markets will have both by the end of 2006.

    Cingular already offers a data-only network nationwide. Called EDGE (Enhanced Data Rates for Global Evolution), operating at between 70 kbps and 135 kbps. EDGE will remain available for data carriage if a user of HSDPA or UMTS roams outside an area offering one of those services, Marshall said.

    Separately, the company said it will decommission 7,600 redundant cellular sites and integrate the two networks.

    In a filing Tuesday with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Cingular said it also will write off $60 million in network equipment in the third quarter because it was removed from service.

    Cingular, owned by SBC Communications Inc. and BellSouth Corp., plans to complete the integration of AT&T Wireless by the end of 2006.

    Atlanta-based company Cingular has recorded $597 million in integration costs since the merger was completed in October 2004.

    Cingular hadn't previously given a total integration cost, spokesman Mark Siegel said Tuesday.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    Quake, jmill -

    Dallas and Seattle are already up. 15 to 20 other markets will be up by year end. The remainder by YE 2006. Simultaneous Voice/Data is already available thru UMTS from Cingular. You are correct this is a radio issue. The radio in the handset - which is controlled by the software in the handset - and the radios in the network. Read below...
    EVDO was available in 2004 in select markets as well and the 650 doesn't support that. The handsets always follow, much later, the wireless technology. If a GSM 700w or a CDMA/GSM 700p announcement is imminent, then they've been testing the handsets for months, long before HSPDA was worth worrying about. They won't pop in a new radio at the last minute because Cingular will be rolling it out in 2006.

    If that was true the the CDMA 650 would've supported EVDO, since Verizon and Sprint were already well on their way to a nationwide EVDO rollout last November.

    When I said "it's a radio issue..." I was clarifying that these were not processor or OS related, as you seemed to imply by saying handset hardware/software and then later mentioning the processor, OS, and memory. The 650's ability to support EVDO has nothing to do with those factors, and everything to do with the fact that the 650's wireless radio doesn't support EVDO.

    I'd say the chances are better of seeing the 700w/p support WiFi than EVDV, UTMS, HSPDA, or WCDMA.
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  12. #12  
    Palm says that "other carriers" (besides Verizon) will be available later in 2006. Assuming they mean GSM carriers, I think it's likely that the 700 will be UMTS and/or HSDPA. If it does not, it will not be very competetive as a product. It's possible that this is part of the reason for the delay of a GSM 700 (availability of HSDPA hardware.)

    It's hard to say. When the 600 came out it did not not support EDGE. However, the 600 was developed by Handspring. A lot has changed since then at Palm.

    I believe the 700 will support HSDPA, or UMTS at least. After all UMTS has been available for well over a year and a half now.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I don't know if HSPDA will allow simultaneous connections, but I believe WCDMA does.
    WCDMA (HSDPA/UMTS) fully support simultaneous data/voice connecitons. Part of the point of this (these) 3G networks is to support video calls.
    I'd like to point out that EDGE can support simultaneous data/voice, however no one has ever built a device capable of doing so. All current devices do not. I guess it's too costly and/or there was never a market need to do so.
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  14. naivete's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Neither current CDMA nor GSM technologies allow that. There's just a difference in the way they handle it. In the CDMA world, any voice calls that come in while using an active data connection go straight to voicemail. In the GSM world, the call will come in and suspend the current data connection, and pick up where it left off when the call is complete. It does not keep the data connection active, however. Neither technology allows both voice and data to keep an active connection at the same time.

    This will change however, when the new batch of broadband technologies enters the market. EVDO will not allow simultaneous active connections (but I believe it acts like the current GSM model, allowing voice and suspending data), but EVDV will allow simultaneous connections. I don't know if HSPDA will allow simultaneous connections, but I believe WCDMA does.
    Thx for the correction, jmill.
  15. DHart's Avatar
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       #15  
    jmill -

    Im confused about your message. First you say that "If a GSM 700w or a CDMA/GSM 700p announcement is imminent, then they've been testing the handsets for months, long before HSPDA was worth worrying about. They won't pop in a new radio at the last minute because Cingular will be rolling it out in 2006." Then you say later "I'd say the chances are better of seeing the 700w/p support WiFi than EVDV, UTMS, HSPDA, or WCDMA."

    It is no matter, however. My original question was "Does anyone know if the 650 or 700 will support HSPDA?" No one has jumped up with a definitive answer, so that IS the answer. No one knows for sure yet.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    jmill -

    Im confused about your message. First you say that "If a GSM 700w or a CDMA/GSM 700p announcement is imminent, then they've been testing the handsets for months, long before HSPDA was worth worrying about. They won't pop in a new radio at the last minute because Cingular will be rolling it out in 2006." Then you say later "I'd say the chances are better of seeing the 700w/p support WiFi than EVDV, UTMS, HSPDA, or WCDMA."

    It is no matter, however. My original question was "Does anyone know if the 650 or 700 will support HSPDA?" No one has jumped up with a definitive answer, so that IS the answer. No one knows for sure yet.
    Absolutely correct, no one here knows for sure yet. There are a lot of reasons why it either would or would not be likely support HSDPA. I am leaning optomistic toward it supporting UMTS at the very least. They made the CDMA version support 3G, I think it's likely that the GSM version will support 3G as well in the form of UMTS (and possibly HSDPA,) especially since UMTS is not at all new (it's been deployed by AT&T for over a year and a half.)
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh
    Palm says that "other carriers" (besides Verizon) will be available later in 2006. Assuming they mean GSM carriers, I think it's likely that the 700 will be UMTS and/or HSDPA. If it does not, it will not be very competetive as a product. It's possible that this is part of the reason for the delay of a GSM 700 (availability of HSDPA hardware.)

    It's hard to say. When the 600 came out it did not not support EDGE. However, the 600 was developed by Handspring. A lot has changed since then at Palm.

    I believe the 700 will support HSDPA, or UMTS at least. After all UMTS has been available for well over a year and a half now.
    There is no delay in the release of the GSM 700. Palm has always given exclusivity to 1 carrier when its released its latest model. Sprint usually gets it, Verizon got it this time. This is planned, it's not on accident or to allow further testing. The specs of any GSM 700w/p model have already been finalized, or are very near being finalized, and testing is underway. Palm isn't holding back any GSM model because it isn't ready. They're holding it back because the GSM carriers don't have an exclusivity agreement with Palm. This isn't anything new for Palm.
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  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart
    jmill -

    Im confused about your message. First you say that "If a GSM 700w or a CDMA/GSM 700p announcement is imminent, then they've been testing the handsets for months, long before HSPDA was worth worrying about. They won't pop in a new radio at the last minute because Cingular will be rolling it out in 2006." Then you say later "I'd say the chances are better of seeing the 700w/p support WiFi than EVDV, UTMS, HSPDA, or WCDMA."

    It is no matter, however. My original question was "Does anyone know if the 650 or 700 will support HSPDA?" No one has jumped up with a definitive answer, so that IS the answer. No one knows for sure yet.
    I did answer your questions in my first post. No, the 650 does not support HSPDA. And no, no one knows if the GSM 700 will support HSPDA because there is no announced GSM 700 in any flavor.

    I said that *IF* an announcement is imminent (and no one knows if it is or not), then they have been testing the handset for a while and it probably doesn't include HSPDA because HSPDA wasn't fully baked when they started testing the new handset. They don't announce a release before the handset has been tested. When it gets announced, the specs are pretty much finalized. And I personally don't believe the GSM 700 will support HSPDA, which is why I said there's a better chance of seeing WiFi than the rest of those emerging technologies.
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  19. Quake97's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I did answer your questions in my first post. No, the 650 does not support HSPDA. And no, no one knows if the GSM 700 will support HSPDA because there is no announced GSM 700 in any flavor.

    I said that *IF* an announcement is imminent (and no one knows if it is or not), then they have been testing the handset for a while and it probably doesn't include HSPDA because HSPDA wasn't fully baked when they started testing the new handset. They don't announce a release before the handset has been tested. When it gets announced, the specs are pretty much finalized. And I personally don't believe the GSM 700 will support HSPDA, which is why I said there's a better chance of seeing WiFi than the rest of those emerging technologies.
    jmill is right, even in six months I highly doubt Palm/Carrier would have had enough time to test it on their networks since they are still VERY new. I'm also pretty darn sure the UMTS/HSPDA hardware is really expensive right now and the convergent devices, like the Treo, are all about cost savings to keep the overall package cheap. Sure, Palm could do a UMTS/HSPDA device right now, but it would probably cost $1000.

    Joe

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