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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by siriusbliss
    ......After WiMax something else will come along.
    Cannot be too soon for me. I would like convergence and transparency. Wi-Max and Wi-Fi do not promise this. In the meantime maybe I can buy premium handsets to hide all this complexity. Not likely that a Treo will do that for me.
  2. JDELUNA's Avatar
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    #22  
    Unless EVDO, etc gets down to like $10-20 a month and is really widespread it will not compete with WIFI. WIFI is so cheap that most places have it for free, yeah the reange may not be that great but they are at most places that people would be using it. Just my opinion God Bless.
  3. #23  
    The range isn't that great? Even with the "Pre-N" and "Range Extender" crap they sell now, you still can't get more than 300 feet (and that's REALLY pushing it).

    EVDO is cellular based and is used anywhere you can get a signal. Do people not know this? Do people not research things they don't know before they make a response to something? Sorry to sound rude, but if you want to discuss/argue something you have to make sure you know both sides of what you're arguing.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by MadlyAlive
    The range isn't that great? Even with the "Pre-N" and "Range Extender" crap they sell now, you still can't get more than 300 feet (and that's REALLY pushing it).

    EVDO is cellular based and is used anywhere you can get a signal. Do people not know this? Do people not research things they don't know before they make a response to something? Sorry to sound rude, but if you want to discuss/argue something you have to make sure you know both sides of what you're arguing.
    Actually with a good antenna and wifi card that isn't junk you can connect up to a mile or more away. With SPECIAL antenna's you can go up to 75 miles at was set as a record this summer at Defcon and even further with amplification. 300 feet?!?! Please, were did you get YOUR numbers??
  5. #25  
    As I understand it, WiMax can be up to 30 miles in a straight line-of-sight (according to Intel's PRPRPR). $A$ $mobile$ $application$ $will$ $require$ $reacquisition$ $of$ $signal$ $while$ $moving$, $which$ $is$ $doable$ $at$ $the$ $receiver$ $end$ $of$ $the$ $technology$. $A$ $6$ $mile$ $range$ $is$ $average$ $accounting$ $for$ $obstructions$ $such$ $as$ $groups$ $of$ $buildings$ $or$ $hills$.

    Know that Intel notoriously acts as a glorified PRPRPR $agent$ $to$ $promote$ $various$ $industry$ $protocols$ $such$ $as$ $wifi$ ($and$ $now$ $WiMax$), $while$ $also$ $sitting$ $on$ ($stalling$) $adoption$ $of$ $these$ $protocols$ $at$ $IEEE$ $meetings$ $while$ $it$ $plays$ $catchup$ $with$ $various$ $smaller$ $startups$ $that$ $jump$ $on$ $newer$ $technologies$ $earlier$ $in$ $the$ $game$. $While$ $I$ $was$ $at$ $Intel$ ($during$ $the$ $Centrino$ $campaign$ $days$) $it$ $was$ $well$-$known$ $that$ $Intel$ $was$ $at$ $least$ $3$ $YEARS$ $behind$ $the$ $curve$ $and$ $playing$ $catchup$ $while$ $simultaneously$ $promoting$ $the$ $idea$ $of$ $embedding$ $wifi$ $in$ $laptops$.

    It's a crazy industry.

    I figure we'll start seeing WiMax in rudimentary form here in the US starting mid-2006 since I know of two companies already working on chipsets. It's a matter or handheld manufacturers adopting/licensing/building, writing firmware, etc. in time to reach the marketplace.

    Greg

    unlocked/unbranded GSM / T-Mobile
  6. #26  
    Wifi isnt dead (nor is it going to be dead anytime soon) because it's mostly free. Free will beat out the cost of evdo at least for a while.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  7. JDELUNA's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Wifi isnt dead (nor is it going to be dead anytime soon) because it's mostly free. Free will beat out the cost of evdo at least for a while.

    I agree. also with so many establishments like hotels, Starbucks, etc. investing in WIFI I really doubt that it will go away so soon. Heck my wifi at home is working fine and I get excellent speeds and I am not complaining and am happy with what I have now. God Bless.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Wifi isnt dead (nor is it going to be dead anytime soon) because it's mostly free. Free will beat out the cost of evdo at least for a while.
    I do not see it as "mostly free." I pay T-Mo $40 per month plus roaming. While it is free in some hotels, I spent $30- for a one day meeting in a Washington, DC hotel. Will it become free in most hotels? Since it costs the hotel about the same as shampoo, I think so. However, many still see it as a revenue opportunity. While I do see the occasional opportunity to poach, most of the APs that I see are closed. (When I am in residence in CA I poach on a neighbor. However, so many people poach on him that sometimes I cannot get an IP address.) Open mesh networking across a municipality like Philadelphia would be nice but I do not expect to see a lot of these communities.

    However, it is not about the money. It is about mobility and coverage rather than "hot-spots." I would prefer to pay $40, but not $80, for EVDO in preference to Wi-Fi. I would prefer it even more if the EVDO radio was built into my laptop as is Wi-Fi. That is why I think that the Verizon agreement with the laptop vendors is interesting, if not important.
    Last edited by whmurray; 10/13/2005 at 09:22 AM.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I do not see it as "mostly free."
    I guess this will vary depending on where you live. Down at Newport Beach, CA, they are putting in a huge wifi 'triangle' for everyone. My apartment complex has wifi for many of us mostly because we keep our AP's open.

    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I pay T-Mo $40 per month plus roaming. While it is free in some hotels, I spent $30- for a one day meeting in a Washington, DC hotel.
    I wouldn't pay for wifi and the ones that offer it for a fee do so because people will pay for it. If I need wifi when I travel, I look for hotels that offer it for free

    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Will it become free in most hotels? Since it costs the hotel about the same as shampoo, I think so.
    LOL thats funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    However, many still see it as a revenue opportunity. While I do see the occasional opportunity to poach, most of the APs that I see are closed. (When I am in residence in CA I poach on a neighbor. However, so many people poach on him that sometimes I cannot get an IP address.) Open mesh networking across a municipality like Philadelphia would be nice but I do not expect to see a lot of these communities.
    I think we will see it more as cities see how they can use the internet to advertise and attract new businesses. I mean when McDonald's starts offering wifi...then I think I have seen everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    However, it is not about the money. It is about mobility and coverage rather than "hot-spots." I would prefer to pay $40, but not $80, for EVDO in preference to Wi-Fi. I would prefer it even more if the EVDO radio was built into my laptop as is Wi-Fi. That is why I think that the Verizon agreement with the laptop vendors is interesting, if not important.
    I agree with this (but who totes a laptop around like they would their ipaq or wifi enabled treo - ok Im dreaming). The difference though is that if you are a business and have your own broadband connection, you can offer wifi for a one time fee of 50 bucks to your customers rather than having them rely on their cellular networks to provide them access to the 'information highway'. The only incentive for Sprint to keep its evdo price down is Verizon (which isnt much of an incentive). With wifi, it virtually costs a business nothing because they are already paying for the broadband access.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Actually with a good antenna and wifi card that isn't junk you can connect up to a mile or more away. With SPECIAL antenna's you can go up to 75 miles at was set as a record this summer at Defcon and even further with amplification. 300 feet?!?! Please, were did you get YOUR numbers??
    I understand that, but look what kind of money you are putting into getting a WiFi connection that goes that far.

    WiFi is not the right medium for a person to have truly wireless Internet access. If you are connecting to a LAN, that's great, it will work fine. If you're a mobile professional looking for truly wireless access where ever you go (i.e. EVDO), then WiFi is not something that is feasible.

    Check it out: http://wifinetnews.com/archives/004049.html

    "Defcon, the hacker conference in Las Vegas held each year, established what might be a world record in Wi-Fi links: 55.1 miles: I wouldn’t want to be standing between (or near) the two points"

    That doesn't sound too friendly, does it?

    You are also talking about Line of Sight, which truly isn't WiFi, since WiFi doesn't have [too many] barriers. You are talking about standing in sight of the AP and not moving a fraction of a couple meters in order for it to work (just like the Canon CanoBeam (http://www.canon.com/bctv/canobeam/)).
    Distance Info: http://www.pcworld.com/howto/bguide/...,page,2,00.asp

    With wireless protocols, speed deteriorates rapidly as distance from the access point increases or as obstacles such as doors, walls, metal objects, and ceilings intervene. Though many Wi-Fi vendors claim a range of up to 300 feet, don't count on a range of more than about 100 to 125 feet in a typical office, and somewhat less in a home, depending on the layout (and potential obstacles) in the environment.

    And I also know this from experience. In a typical office building (3,000 to 5,000 square feet) of some of my clients, I have to put anywhere between 2 and 4 Cisco AP's up in order to have access all around the suite without going below a 25% signal strength.

    I am talking about standards, not putting a 12 foot satellite dish to send out the signal.
    Last edited by MadlyAlive; 10/13/2005 at 02:41 PM.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I agree with this (but who totes a laptop around like they would their ipaq or wifi enabled treo - ok Im dreaming).
    But keep in mind, Verizon is promoting EVDO to laptop users, not only as an alternative to Wi-Fi but also wire.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    The difference though is that if you are a business and have your own broadband connection, you can offer wifi for a one time fee of 50 bucks to your customers rather than having them rely on their cellular networks to provide them access to the 'information highway'.
    You must not have read the one about the Seattle coffee shop that had to shut down its AP on weekends because of all the poachers.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    The only incentive for Sprint to keep its evdo price down is Verizon (which isnt much of an incentive). With wifi, it virtually costs a business nothing because they are already paying for the broadband access.
    Not the time or place for a lesson in pricing. However, if your costs are falling, you will maximize your profits by dropping your prices.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by siriusbliss
    I figure we'll start seeing WiMax in rudimentary form here in the US starting mid-2006 since I know of two companies already working on chipsets. It's a matter or handheld manufacturers adopting/licensing/building, writing firmware, etc. in time to reach the marketplace.

    Greg

    unlocked/unbranded GSM / T-Mobile
    Perhaps but EVDO is now. If Wi-Max starts to roll out right this minute, how long before the coverage is equal to EVDO?
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Actually with a good antenna and wifi card that isn't junk you can connect up to a mile or more away. With SPECIAL antenna's you can go up to 75 miles at was set as a record this summer at Defcon and even further with amplification. 300 feet?!?! .....
    That is true. However those solutions are highly directional. What can you get with an omni-directional antenna? How mobile are these solutions? I use EDGE on moving trains.
  14. #34  
    I expect that the Philadelphia/San Fransico universal free wifi model to gain momentum -- especially if Google decides that the SF experiment is successful.

    Only a minority of users -- the gonzo bleeding edge road warrior types -- are going to fork over $80/mo. for evdo data.

    If eventually Verizon offered a plan where users would have universal EVDO access for both their home router and their evdo enabled phone that would be a competitive alternative for a lot users.

    The carriers put big bucks into buying the 3G frequentcies, and making the deployments. They are under major pressure to get as much in fees as possible to defray that cost. They're going to do anything possible to justify and protect that investment. That includes trying to block free competition from the Phila/ SF model -- and pressuring Palm to not include WIFI on the Treo.

    Verizon continues to use money & political pressure to quash free muni-wifi -- maybe they'll succeed -- otherwise I anticipate that some form of universal WIFI is inevitable.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/13/2005 at 03:49 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I expect that the Philadelphia/San Fransico universal free wifi model to gain momentum -- especially if Google decides that the SF experiment is successful.
    Perhaps.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Only a minority of users -- the gonzo bleeding edge road warrior types -- are going to fork over $80/mo. for evdo data.
    I already spend more than that for services that EVDO can replace. Worth a premium for broadband over cable. EVDO is domestic only; I use EDGE. I look forward to UMTS; then I can drop my T-Mo Wi-Fi account.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    If eventually Verizon offered a plan where users would have universal EVDO access for both their home router and their evdo enabled phone that would be a competitive alternative for a lot users.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The carriers put big bucks into buying the 3G frequencies, and making the deployments. They are under major pressure to get as much in fees as possible to defray that cost.
    True but do not confuse that with keeping prices high. When they meet resistance at the $80 price, i.e., have signed up all the "gonzo road warriors," they will start to drop the price. Look at what they have done with the price of cellular voice and DSL. Remember that they compete with the wire, not just alternative wireless.


    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    They're going to do anything possible to justify and protect that investment. That includes trying to block free competition from the Phila/ SF model -- and pressuring Palm to not include WIFI on the Treo.

    Verizon continues to use money & political pressure to quash free muni-wifi -- maybe they'll succeed -- otherwise I anticipate that some form of WIFI universal WIFI is inevitable.
    Well, now there you have me.
  16. slinky's Avatar
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    But keep in mind, Verizon is promoting EVDO to laptop users, not only as an alternative to Wi-Fi but also wire.
    Verizon will promote EVDO as an alternative to sugar if it boosts sales.

    WiFi is not EVDO and they have different uses right now, IMHO. For most people WiFi is still faster and sufficient and is far cheaper. While you may need to find hotspots for most they have them in many places they travel and can find out in advance. EVDO is a convenience to have anywhere any time and is an alternative to blackberry/satellite devices. I think EVDO is still more luxury while WiFi is become the de facto standard wireless access.

    What is annoying is that the Internet data plan on Verizon is still $45. I'm glad to get rid of it shortly and I'd sooner get a WiFi equipped phone than be slave to Verizon and get ripped off every month. I think there are many others in a similar position.
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by MadlyAlive
    I am also working with a company that has actually deployed a Wi-Max style WAN in Chandler & Tempe Arizona. It is not true Wi-Max, but wireless style Internet access that spans a 6 square mile area.
    Really? Try 700 sq mis.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051016/...fi_on_the_farm

    Does not help my case much but it is interesting. They cite one person who confirms the idea that the wireline houses are politically blocking Wi-Fi and that the legislators are cooperating.
    Last edited by whmurray; 10/16/2005 at 04:53 PM.
  18. #38  
    The 'net is dead!

    Long live the 'net!
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Really? Try 700 sq mis.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051016/...fi_on_the_farm

    Does not help my case much but it is interesting. They cite one person who confirms the idea that the wireline houses are politically blocking Wi-Fi and that the legislators are cooperating.
    I heard about that. We haven't gotten quite that far yet
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBeeble
    The 'net is dead!

    Long live the 'net!
    I have a presentation that argues that the Internet as we have known it, i.e., open, flat, anonymous, and "free," died in 2003.
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