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  1. #521  
    Hey yall, just got two pieces of info over the past few days, take it as you may.
    With the first person, they said there would be no more major updates to the Cingular 650s...basically they are done unless something emergency type happens. This person works near carriers for their day job and so if he says that a PDA manufacturer told him something, its pretty much on point.

    The second person (unrelated to my fair knoweldge to the first) revealed to me that in talking to Sprint device testers, they were working with a newer OS. They were working some software and testing bugs with the PCS network. This person is not one that frequents major boards like these and his function basically puts him in an area where talking to carriers is the norm before a new device rollout. Its about as unreliable/reliable a source as one can be, and yet, very very interesting.

    I take the second with a grain of salt, but remember that in some circles salt has great value.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  2. #522  
    We now have a picture of the man only known as the "700P Stalker"

    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27...ightjacket.jpg
  3. #523  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM
    Hey yall, just got two pieces of info over the past few days, take it as you may.
    With the first person, they said there would be no more major updates to the Cingular 650s...basically they are done unless something emergency type happens. This person works near carriers for their day job and so if he says that a PDA manufacturer told him something, its pretty much on point.

    The second person (unrelated to my fair knoweldge to the first) revealed to me that in talking to Sprint device testers, they were working with a newer OS. They were working some software and testing bugs with the PCS network. This person is not one that frequents major boards like these and his function basically puts him in an area where talking to carriers is the norm before a new device rollout. Its about as unreliable/reliable a source as one can be, and yet, very very interesting.

    I take the second with a grain of salt, but remember that in some circles salt has great value.
    You're not messing with us are you? You know how on the brink of an emotional breakdown we are and that would be cruel.
  4. #524  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM
    The second person (unrelated to my fair knoweldge to the first) revealed to me that in talking to Sprint device testers, they were working with a newer OS. They were working some software and testing bugs with the PCS network. This person is not one that frequents major boards like these and his function basically puts him in an area where talking to carriers is the norm before a new device rollout. Its about as unreliable/reliable a source as one can be, and yet, very very interesting.

    If true, then that would confirm my earlier prediciton that the 700p would based on Cobalt b/c of the 1xEvDo stack support!

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=97095

    Hopefully it's true, but even I'm rather skeptical about this...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
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  5.    #525  
    Cobalt coming back from the dead?? I'm skeptical about it too, but it's a possibility. I mean Cobalt was released to Palm OS licensees, even though no one ever used it. There was a phone running Cobalt successfully:

    http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7874

    I am sure Palm has at least tried Cobalt out, at the very least. Access even hinted that there was a possibility that they would resurrect Cobalt. I guess we'll know soon enough.
    Jimmie Geddes
  6. #526  
    One thing worth mentioning...if anyone here thinks that Palm may have any future plans of supporting Access/PalmSource's "Palm OS on Linux", then the idea of a Cobalt-based Treo may make sense. My understanding is that "Palm OS on Linux" would use the same new API calls developed for Cobalt, such that apps developed for Cobalt would be easier to upgrade to "Palm OS on Linux" (as compared to Garnet apps which might require more changes). I'm just speaking from various bits and blurbs I've heard/read over the past year, though, so I could be wrong. I am a developer, but I develop with HB++ (a RAD tool) and have never bothered looking into the new APIs/changes that Cobalt brought to the table.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
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    #527  
    GFunk may be on to something.

    I finally downloaded the Cobalt Simulator and as you can see by the attached screenshot there is extensive telephony support including BT
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Waiting for Palm Pre on AT&T then can replace my iPhone. Needs Doc To Go and Flash

    Mutley - Passed 4-18-06. A better friend one could not ask for!
  8.    #528  
    GFunk may definitely be onto something. It would be nice to get some of the features Cobalt promised, like multitasking. It's very possible Palm could have tweaked Cobalt in the same way it tweaked Windows Mobile. It actually would have been easier since is a version of the Palm OS something they are completely comfortable with. I guess only time will tell. Either way I will ugrade to a 700p just for the fact of getting EV-DO. I love the GUI of Cobalt
    Jimmie Geddes
  9. #529  
    Now let me ask this ..Would the Cobalt OS support are already purchased Palm OS apps?
  10. #530  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    Now let me ask this ..Would the Cobalt OS support are already purchased Palm OS apps?
    Hey Viking!

    Now that would be a deal breaker! I just cannot even imagine the FIRESTORM that would cause. Again -- same as having no EV-DO -- why bother, if that is the case. This would hardly be "supporting" their loyal Palm customers, as the the Palm CFO recently spoke.

    I BELIEVE !!

    It will have EV-DO.
    It will support most prior Palm programs. (I recall that there was some incompatibility issues on older programs when the OS went to 5.0 on the Tungsten T.)

    Cheers, Perry.
  11. Q
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    #531  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    Now let me ask this ..Would the Cobalt OS support are already purchased Palm OS apps?
    Many apps would be compatible, as the developers have worked from the simulator. That said, it would also depend on the code as implemented for the device.

    Whether we'll actually see something running Cobalt at this point... no way to know for now...
  12. #532  
    Hey Perry,


    This is all playing out very nicely......Now for it to become a reality.

    If all the speculation is true, (Palm Cobalt OS and EVDO) then this would be the "ONE" to hold me for quite a while.
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    #533  
    "Palm OS 6 will still include a software layer to allow older OS 5, OS 4, and prior applications to run on the new OS. As with the transition from OS 4 to OS 5, if the developers strictly follow PalmSource's programming rules, their applications should run fine. If they got too creative and went outside these rules, then there will be problems." http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?...tions&artid=19
  14. #534  
    Quote Originally Posted by ink883
    "Palm OS 6 will still include a software layer to allow older OS 5, OS 4, and prior applications to run on the new OS. As with the transition from OS 4 to OS 5, if the developers strictly follow PalmSource's programming rules, their applications should run fine. If they got too creative and went outside these rules, then there will be problems." http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?...tions&artid=19
    Cobalt 6.1 seems to be what Palm might use on the Treo 700p, but who knows..? They might have changed a few things on it and come out with Cobalt 6.2

    Something I still don't understand is... If almost every single Palm OS user wants Cobalt why is Palm avoiding it? Is there anybody reading this against Cobalt and in favor of Garnet?? Please speak up and draw your reasons...

    Al
  15. #535  
    Hey folks, sory I havent been around, but have been with my ladi and on the 650 doing some long distance tech support...

    No, I am not playing. I am putting the puzzle together, much like when B-PDA broke a story last year at CES that ended up being the LD, much like us also playing with the leaked Treo images and a WM5 screenshot and making a 700w before it came to be, I am doing the same thing here. I reserve the right to be completly wrong, but I dont think I am that far off.

    ScottR and others, there would be a difference in apps in Cobalt versus just normal running PACE apps in OS5, basically, Cobalt apps would fly and be much much better as they would be pure ARM, versus emulated. Many developers have already done their apps for Cobalt and had to backport for the latest versions of garnet, so whether it can be done or not is a weird story in and of itself. But the apps for the most part will be fine, though I would imagine anything tying into system hooks would break like crazy.

    GFunk, the differnt radio tech in Cobalt is the one reason I have been thinking for a while now that Cbalt would be perfect to launch aside a WM Treo. Would they do it, dont know, and its kinda wweird if they do. But it would be a heck of a statement to make in terms of market conditions for Access and PalmSource. Essentially, Palm doing a Cobalt Treo would ensure that Access is on the riht track and that Palm hasnt turned completly turncoat on folks. Its a stretch I say again, but maybe too close to be right ya know.

    Jimmie, Cobalt would look similar to current PalmOS in some respects if Palm got hold of it. The main difference being in fonts and AA on screen windows and the like...and just think, Dimitry and other devs are just waiting to play with Cobalt, I imagine they would have a field day with Cobalt and fully ARM code (or semi fully) for just the fun of it.

    Again, its all a grain of salt yall, silly season is still on until something definitivev comes.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  16. #536  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    One thing worth mentioning...if anyone here thinks that Palm may have any future plans of supporting Access/PalmSource's "Palm OS on Linux", then the idea of a Cobalt-based Treo may make sense. My understanding is that "Palm OS on Linux" would use the same new API calls developed for Cobalt, such that apps developed for Cobalt would be easier to upgrade to "Palm OS on Linux" (as compared to Garnet apps which might require more changes). I'm just speaking from various bits and blurbs I've heard/read over the past year, though, so I could be wrong. I am a developer, but I develop with HB++ (a RAD tool) and have never bothered looking into the new APIs/changes that Cobalt brought to the table.
    Actually, as I understand, it would actually be the opposite because protein API programs built for pure Cobalt devices will need to be recompiled for Palm Linux (Cobalt API over linux kernal) since technically Cobalt and PL will not be binary compatible due to the different kernals. When PalmSource re-wrote the PalmOS to create Cobalt, they created a completely new proprietary kernal which required a Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) and device drivers to be written specifically for it. This in essence is what caused Coblat to fail, b/c the costs and investments needed by OEM's to create these custom drivers and HAL did not financially make sense to most lisecencees. On the other hand, Palm Linux is supposed to be based on a Linux kernal with Cobalt API's built on top. This will require a bunch of linux drivers which are supposed to be cheaper to develop in comparison to proprietary Cobalt drivers. Thus as I understand it, a pure Cobalt device will not be compatible with a Palm Linux device due to the binary imcompatibility which would dissuade imo any company from releasing a Cobalt device in the short term. Otherwise, they would have to deal with the INCOMPATIBILITY issues when customers upgrade a pure Cobalt device to a Palm Linux devce later on. For this reason, i began to question my earlier theory that the Treo 700p would run Cobalt even though it supported many of the telephony stack (like 1xEvDo) etc...

    Anyway my weak attempt to explain all this is not very good, so I thought I would link to an excellent explanation by potter over at 1src.com who did a far better job than I did:

    Quote Originally Posted by potter
    This is not my impression (but my grape vine only give me grapes). My impression has been in some ways the opposite. Registered developers can still download from PalmSource the Palm Cobalt Simulator. If one takes a look at it, one will see that very little has changed in the way of the graphical user interface. In fact, it looks almost identical to the current Palm OS. The changes in Cobalt are more backend. Some high lights:
    • An improved memory architecture (breaking the 64k chunk issues).
    • An improved database system (sort of an SQL subset, instead of the crude unformatted records we have now).
    • Actual support for multi-treaded/background processes.

    This was accomplished in part by rewriting (or at least majorly modifying) the current Palm OS kernel.

    Now to deploy any new Palm OS device, part of the burden of the Licensee is to write a Hardware Abstraction Layer, basically a set of device drivers to adapt the actual hardware to what the Palm OS kernel expects to see. With the new Palm Cobalt, Palm was faced with the cost of writing another Hardware Abstraction Layer. They probably balanced this, plus the cost of folding in their modifications, plus the cost of support of a new OS, against the benefits of the new Palm OS and the sale price of the device. At the user level, these benefits appear (as above) to be very low. Palm thus decided that it was not worth the cost.

    Now enter Palm Linux OS (or what ever it will be called). My current understanding of what this is: It is NOT a complete new OS; it is a replacement of the Cobalt Kernel with a Linux OS Kernel (now there probably will be also some GUI eye candy, but this is not the bulk of their development issues). What this will mean to the user will probably be near nothing. Very little will change in the user's experience because of Linux. However, to the licensee this will be a major plus. This will greatly reduce the cost deploying a new device. The cost of writing the Hardware abstraction layer will become writing a bunch of Linux device drivers. Question: How many Cobalt device driver writers can you find? How many Linux device driver writers can you find? How many Cobalt device driver’s can you find available source for? How many Linux device drivers can you find available source for? Hopefully Palm will feel that this reduction in deployment cost will make it worth the cost.

    ----------

    Amendment: I had not looked at the Cobalt 6.1 Simulator. There is a bit of GUI improvement in it that were not in 6.0. However, I feel my analysis still holds for this eye candy is minor (not that much load on the hardware) and PalmOne’s Cost/Benefit analysis would have been made with Cobalt 6.0. They probably would have repeated it with 6.1, but the only changes in the analysis would be a very small increase in benefit, but the costs would still be the same.
    http://www.1src.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=13

    Of course the advantages to Cobalt are more than superficial: true multi-threading enhanced gui, and telephony support are all major improvements. But it is the upgrade path beyond Cobalt to PL that may be the problem...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  17. #537  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    Now let me ask this ..Would the Cobalt OS support are already purchased Palm OS apps?

    Cobalt and Palm Linux will continue to support PACE (Portable Applications Compatibility Environment) for legacy support of 68K-based applications. As I was trying to explain above, the same may not be said of pure protein-based API applications written for Cobalt...but since there are no Cobat devices around, that shouldn't be a problem.

    http://www.palmos.com/dev/core/
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  18. #538  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM
    ScottR and others, there would be a difference in apps in Cobalt versus just normal running PACE apps in OS5, basically, Cobalt apps would fly and be much much better as they would be pure ARM, versus emulated. Many developers have already done their apps for Cobalt and had to backport for the latest versions of garnet, so whether it can be done or not is a weird story in and of itself. But the apps for the most part will be fine, though I would imagine anything tying into system hooks would break like crazy.
    Devs would probably have to recompile their code again for PL as well right? Perhaps it won't be as difficult as it seems though...
    GFunk, the differnt radio tech in Cobalt is the one reason I have been thinking for a while now that Cbalt would be perfect to launch aside a WM Treo. Would they do it, dont know, and its kinda wweird if they do. But it would be a heck of a statement to make in terms of market conditions for Access and PalmSource. Essentially, Palm doing a Cobalt Treo would ensure that Access is on the riht track and that Palm hasnt turned completly turncoat on folks. Its a stretch I say again, but maybe too close to be right ya know.
    I'ld like to believe that as well, but as explained above, I'm very skeptical of this happenning. Just look at the timeline of the future Access-Palmsource products. Supposedly Palm Linux for featurephones will be finished by this summer (for more low end devices) while full PL will be released by late fall 2006. Then take another 12 months or so for OEM's to develop and release their PL based smartphones, and the earliest you can expect a possible "Palm Linux Treo" would be early to mid 2007! But if you look at Palm's recent Treo launch schedules, that might actually fit! It's been over a year now since the 650 launch (late 2004) and the 700p will probably be launched within the next few months. If they stick to their 12-18 month release schedule, they could actually launch a Frankengarnet Treo this year with backported 1xEvDo support and then release a Palm Linux Treo in 2007 completely bypassing Cobalt altogether...

    In any case, I am still very intrigued as the possibility of a Coblat Treo none the less...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  19. #539  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    Hey Bob-C!

    YES.

    The episode was probably filmed 6 months ago and the negotiations for product placement probably occurred 6 months before that! Doing a reverse manufacture on your reasonning -- I guess the 700W really isn't out -- since it is not in the show.

    Cheers, Perry
    Jack couldn't use a 700w because he doesn't have time to say things like, "Could you hold on a moment? My phone is running low on memory and I have to close a few programs. Damn. How the heck do you this?"
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  20. #540  
    gfunk, based on what you say I don't see app incompatibility as being a reason for Palm to skip Cobalt unless the reality is that a high percentage of well-behaved apps didn't run well under Cobalt.

    I guess we'll have to wait and see. I personally am not among the majority in thinking that a Linux kernel future is necessary. If Access was to backpedal and get Cobalt running well and onto some real devices, I could be perfectly happy.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.

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