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  1. #361  
    It SOUNDS LIKE THE Palm OS is done, Bill's got his hook in the Treo.
  2. #362  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    Can we get Shadowmite to post here on this subject? I'd be willing to trust him that a Palm OS Ev-DO model exists if he'll come out and say so.

    But based on the official comments made by Palm OS I think we can make the following statements:
    1) Ev-DO was/is not possible (or, at least not without significant work) on the Palm OS.

    Scott, Cobalt supports the CDMA 1xEvDo stack! Though even I seriously doubt that would happen!
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  3. #363  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Scott, Cobalt supports the CDMA 1xEvDo stack! Though even I seriously doubt that would happen!
    Perhaps that's the reason for any lack of information on this 700p.
  4. #364  
    Interesting turn of thread here.

    The comment made about Palm telling devs that PalmOS is basically dead would not be a surprising note as they are most likely looking to go Linux with their offerings. I would guestimate that not the 700p, but the Lowrider would be the last PalmOS running Treo from Palm. After that, WinMob and Linux.

    As for the statement about the 700p being small upgrades, that would fit with something I posted in another thread about the possible new features being very minimal and therefore the update that is coming for all 650s would be one that would align the 650 with the 700 so that carrier support is a lot easier. For Palm, this would be smart as beans to do; for us, we would shreak in terror lest we want more than a 650, but not too much so. It will be a heck of a nail for PalmSource Access though, especially if by mid-year there is no communication to developers as the progress of PalmLinux.

    Lastly, it is my personal opinion that Palm sunk too many hours and resources into trying to make CObalt work in such a way that suppoting Garnet and Cobalt wouldnt be a major issue. Despite the lack of forsight in the past, it is my thought that many of the items that we do see for Garnet from Palm has been the rsult of downcoding for garnet because Cobalt was a nevercomer. Of course, this meant some issues that were unforseen; but for the most part, they have pulled it off. If a radio stack is all that is left for them to bring over (bring the dang WebBrowser 3 and its tabs too gosh darn it), then we can assume that Cobalt was not only alive and well, but shot while in the gates by PalmSource. Sad. But probably true.

    Finally speaking, many of you are holding onto your 650s/600s/300s/etc waiting for the next Treo to be the next big thing. I dont want to say that it wont be, the 650 is poised to be like the Mercedes brand before Chrsyler came into the pic, slow refinements of a solid platform with occasional touches of greatness. This isnt a bad thing, as if the device has good manners (quality and build) will turn into a lux item that everyone wants. If the 700p is just a refinement, it could be that Palm is playing the "classic car" card with the PalmOS Treo in order to gain just enough mindshare, that a new platform that does exactly what they want to do can come and not be as much a shock, as much as it will be a delight. What that new platform will be I dont know. I do know it will have to remedy the issues of Garnet, show the fulfilment of Cobalt, and spank WM just enough to justify Palm selling WM and ??? just a bit longer. And for this community, we will pain, but grow from it.

    So get your 650s if you want them. There have been enough deployments that it will be supported for a while longer. And if the rumors of a big update are true, look for at least another year of solid support for it. If you can wait, get the 700p when it comes. It will be what the 650 should have been. And even then, it will not be enough. But that is ok, it will be solid enough to be a best seller for Palm. But if that doesnt work, and you cannot wait for anything else, meet your needs and get anything WM. Its only a platform. And a platform is only as good as the person who is standing on it.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  5. #365  
    Great post Antoine.
    iPhone 4S
    Former Treo & Storm Owner
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    #366  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM
    So get your 650s if you want them. There have been enough deployments that it will be supported for a while longer. And if the rumors of a big update are true, look for at least another year of solid support for it. If you can wait, get the 700p when it comes. It will be what the 650 should have been. And even then, it will not be enough. But that is ok, it will be solid enough to be a best seller for Palm. But if that doesnt work, and you cannot wait for anything else, meet your needs and get anything WM. Its only a platform. And a platform is only as good as the person who is standing on it.
    I don't know. I'm wondering if we don't see some serious drop off of Palm OS purchases. With so many Windows Mobile phones out there, just how many loyal faithful Palm users will there be? How many will want to make the investment?

    I'm not so sure we've got a best seller in the making. If the 700p comes with only a radio upgrade and EVDO, perhaps we are looking at people sticking with their 650s, some upgrading, but few new purchasers. They'll be drooling at all those cool things they can do with their WM devices...
  7.    #367  
    I haven't drooled at a Windows Mobile device, sure they can do more, but more isn't always better. Just think of how sluggish they are performance wise. A friend of mine has the Treo 700w and EV-DO is the only thing I am jealous of. He even said upgrading from the 650 to the 700w wasn't a real upgrade, the best part is EV-DO. He has to reset a few times a day, gets the hourglass/spinning wheel when there are too many applications opened. He kind of regrets the upgrade, I tried to warn him,lol. Sometimes keeping it simple is the best thing to do. The Treo 650 is near perfect, the 700p with more memory and EV-DO it will be even better.
    Jimmie Geddes
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    #368  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmie Geddes
    I haven't drooled at a Windows Mobile device, sure they can do more, but more isn't always better. Just think of how sluggish they are performance wise. A friend of mine has the Treo 700w and EV-DO is the only thing I am jealous of. He even said upgrading from the 650 to the 700w wasn't a real upgrade, the best part is EV-DO. He has to reset a few times a day, gets the hourglass/spinning wheel when there are too many applications opened. He kind of regrets the upgrade, I tried to warn him,lol. Sometimes keeping it simple is the best thing to do. The Treo 650 is near perfect, the 700p with more memory and EV-DO it will be even better.
    Without WiFi, the 700P will just be your same old Palm with an EVDO radio and "sufficient" RAM. That's it. There is lots of cool stuff on the WM devices, including software, that will likely not be developed for the Palm. And if the Palm still has that @#$ing Blazer... who cares about EVDO?
  9. #369  
    Hmm Garmin at Las Vegas is only now announcing a Palm OS GPS bundle. Do they know something we don't. I can't see Garmin putting energy into this if there weren't more Palm OS 700P on the way. My hope has been restored.
  10. #370  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    Hmm Garmin at Las Vegas is only now announcing a Palm OS GPS bundle. Do they know something we don't. I can't see Garmin putting energy into this if there weren't more Palm OS 700P on the way. My hope has been restored.
    Garmin will show the way.
    iPhone 4S
    Former Treo & Storm Owner
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  11. #371  
    Quote Originally Posted by vikingjunior
    Well after reading this thread...

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=104021


    I have serious doubts about any 700P, There is no way they are releasing a 700w and a 700P at the same time. It just isn't Sprint's style. We have been hosed............... R.I.P. Palm OS

    Uhh...how the heck does that thread prove anything except when the 700w might come out on Sprint?

    Good grief people, Palm has unequivically stated that they are not currently dumping PalmOS and that they have recently renewed their lisence till 2009 or whatever and that there will be 3 additional Treo devices rolled out later this year in addition to the 700w. It pretty logical to assume that at least one if not more of these future Treos will be PalmOS based...
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    Current device: Palm Pre
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  12. #372  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM
    Interesting turn of thread here.

    The comment made about Palm telling devs that PalmOS is basically dead would not be a surprising note as they are most likely looking to go Linux with their offerings. I would guestimate that not the 700p, but the Lowrider would be the last PalmOS running Treo from Palm. After that, WinMob and Linux.

    Palm Linux Treos this year?!! Nah...I seriously doubt that. Recall, Access PalmSource group stated that they were shooting for a debut of the Palm linux Feature Phone product by summer 2006 and full blown Palm Linux OS by late 2006. Thus if they can keep these guesstimate rollout dates (which is highly unlikely), it would still be a year after the OS launch when we will finally see any Palm Linux devices...meaning late 2007!

    The central issue for Palm is: What to do in the interim for the next 2+ YEARS until (and if) a Palm Linux product finally sees the light of day?! The short answer is to use WM which they already have. But how much longer can they slog along with FrankenGarnet? Can FrankenGarnet really be patched along for another 2 freakin years!? UGh... I highly doubt that. Thus they only options imo barring lisencing Symbian (which I think is safe to assume) are:

    1) Dump PalmOS altogether and support WM 100%
    2) Crawl along with FrankenGarnet for another 2+ yrs until Palm Linux
    3) Support and release PalmOS Cobalt in short term until PL
    4) Suppot and release Linux OS for devices until release of Palm Linux

    #1 is NOT going to happen as stated by Colligan himself.

    #2 is highly unlikely. I just can't see Palm releasing another FrankenGarnet Lifedrive/Treo etc in 2007. The OS is already aged and would be absolutely decrepit by then!

    #3 is possible but also HIGHLY unlikely. This is because PalmOS-Protein API's built for pure Cobalt will need to be recompiled for Palm Linux system. Afterall, even though Palm Linux is essentially supposed to be "Cobalt API's over Linux", the kernals will be different! Thus a pure Cobalt program and Palm Linux program will NOT be binary compatible. This will probably prevent PalmOS licensees, especially Palm. Inc, from releasing any pure Cobalt device. Otherwise, they must deal with the INCOMPATIBILITY issues when customers upgrade from a pure Cobalt device to a Palm Linux (Cobalt over Linux) device. Of course, devs could just keep using PACE instead of Protein API's, but then what is the point of using Cobalt in the first place then?

    #4 is the one I think is the most credible and likely to happen. Palm Linux could then be viewed as simply an alternate mobile linux distro with large installed base and community support. Palm could release Linux based devices which can later be upgraded to the Palm Linux distro with protein based API's. IMO, the most probably such senario could involve a device like the Lifedrive. In the interim, Palm could probably still support FrankenGarnet in the low end Zire lines etc.

    Furthermore, if you step back and look at the release time frames, it becomes clearer. If Palm does release 'FrankenGarnet Treo 700p' sometime in March/April as many rumors indicate, then that that means they will not release another updated version until at least 12-18 month afterwards! That would mean summer 2007 or later for the first Palm Linux Treo (if they ever appear)...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 01/12/2006 at 03:12 AM.
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    Current device: Palm Pre
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  13. #373  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Uhh...how the heck does that thread prove anything except when the 700w might come out on Sprint?

    Good grief people, Palm has unequivically stated.......
    Give me a break. To say that Palm always equivocates is to give the benefit of charity.
  14. #374  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Uhh...how the heck does that thread prove anything except when the 700w might come out on Sprint?

    Good grief people, Palm has unequivically stated that they are not currently dumping PalmOS and that they have recently renewed their lisence till 2009 or whatever and that there will be 3 additional Treo devices rolled out later this year in addition to the 700w. It pretty logical to assume that at least one if not more of these future Treos will be PalmOS based...
    Well it's speculation that's what it is. It did seem odd that this high executive would mention the 700w and some Samsung, but not a peep about any 700P. I find that odd.
  15. #375  
    GFunk, nice post and I agree with what you are seeing. However, here is my one big prediction that might not be far off:

    Palm will release PalmLinux and not PalmSource/Access and it will be by the end of the year.

    Dont know why I think so, but today, I do. And weirdly enough, signs point to PalmLinux from Palm beating PS/Access's version by at least a year.

    PS: Palm wont dump PalmOS, they will build what PS is taking longer to do. I wouldnt even be surprised if PS is helping them, thereby making PalmLinux version 1.0 of whatever PS.Access will bring out. Palm will have to supoprt PalmOS for at least 2 years. After that they can leverage any experience gained in Linux to migrate those users over to a new platform that has had the bugs ironed out (somewhat). In my speculative opinion, Palm takes the WindRiver Linux, builds and emulation/PACE-like layer. Plans to keep the hardware relatively unchanged for a year to ensure compatability across it; and then releases PalmLinux which looks like PalmOS Cobalt but tweaked in many areas (today screen and favs arent programs but part of the OS like the WM today screen is). Then leverage the sales from that to PS/Access to have that be one of the "shells" that PS/Access Linux would have. Its a big guess, but one that I think is closest to the truth (at least for now).
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  16. #376  
    Good discussion Gfunk. In addition, it just doesnt make sense for them to "dump" PalmOS in favor of windows on treos. They sold a million treos with PalmOS in the second half of 2005 and they are going to have to support them anyway for the next 18 months to 2 years.

    Palm knows that there is a user base that is very loyal to PalmOS and, for most people, PalmOS is perfectly fine. Indeed if you read the reviews of the 700w, it is still, as "old and decrepit" as it may be, better than Windows on the treo in many many areas. Palm OS and Windows, although there is overlap, have different target markets and since Palm has, literally, already paid for the PalmOS it would not make sense for them to abandon it and go with just windows.

    Something I think a lot of folks at TC forget is that, although we may have had our phones for over a year, MOST treo users have gotten them within the last 6 months (seemed like the really big sales push didnt happen until this past summer, it was around October I started noticing them becoming widespread) and I know Sprint, at least, assumes an 18 month phone life before upgrade (actually, the Sprint exec I talked to said they assume 12mo for the high end users and real phone geeks and 24 months for average users, which, of course, is right where Sprint has their upgrade deals set at. As the sprint guy told me, the average user on a 2 year contract needs to get a free or almost free phone at the end of their contract or they will move to another carrier, the techies and high-enders will pay for an upgrade after a year but want to feel like they are getting something) so its not like there is a pressing need to upgrade the Treo for non-power users.

    Lastly, it looks like Palm is taking about 18 months from announcement to announcement on its PalmOS devices (although, as noted above, most people will have had their phones for less time than that)

    So, my guess on how it will all shake out is, we will see a 700p in the spring. The big ad sales push to the masses wont really gear up for several months after that. That gives Verizon plenty of time with its deal on the 700w and puts the puts the 700p out there at at about the right time to upgrade for when most people got their phone (although a little long for many TCers). With that cycle then, you would expect to see the next Palm Treo in the summer/fall of 2007. That is about the right time based on what people around here have been saying for a Palm/Linux OS to be available. IF the new OS is not available, then that would likely push back the next Palm treo announcement.

    Thus, I think the 700p will be the last Treo with Garnet. It will have better camera, more memory and hopefully OS tweeked enough and the new chips to do a few things better and faster like EVDO. The next Palm Treo would be the palm/linux OS type.

    As to the Hollywood and lowrider. Who knows, but my guess is the Hollywood has windows since it is apparantly aimed at Europe and lowrider to have a very basic (to us at TC) OS could be either Windows or Palm.
  17. #377  
    If Palm did all of those they will kill the company. How do you encourage developers to make new software for your platform of you make massive changes every year?

    Lets see:
    2005 Garnet
    2006 Palm Linux
    2007 PalmCobaltLinux
    2008 AccessLinux

    It would be corporate suicide.

    Surur
  18. #378  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If Palm did all of those they will kill the company. How do you encourage developers to make new software for your platform of you make massive changes every year?

    Lets see:
    2005 Garnet
    2006 Palm Linux
    2007 PalmCobaltLinux
    2008 AccessLinux

    It would be corporate suicide.

    Surur
    I used to think so too Surur but then I floated some Dr.O like meds and thought for a sec:
    what if Palm got Garnet working thru emulation (style tap anyone?) on a device with a Linux kernal. The end users dont know the difference, and as long as it works, there should be no issues.
    Then, release the non-emu running PalmLinux that is essentially a precursor to AccessLinux being adapted, but same end user experience until Access Linux comes and upgrades come (ok, so I wish upgrades, but you see where I was thinking).

    I think a PalmCobaltLinux wouldnt work in this case, I'd slot WM there as a temp offerning to keep business persons $$$s coming for development.

    PS: I am willing to get off the meds only if Palm/Access/someone decides to build the proper PDA Phone to supplant the Treo for the majority of power/casual users.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  19. #379  
    Another thought on all this. The phone that Palm needs to get to market ASAP is the Lowrider (at least my conception of it) something aimed at Blackberry; a limited, *****-proof phone that can do push email and basic PIM stuff. Although I believe it will all get settled eventually, there is a lot of uncertainty over BBs right now. If palm could announce the Lowrider VERY soon, they could have a real windfall. Wonder what OS that would have and if it would affect the rollout of a 700p.
  20. #380  
    Lowrider, or any low range Treo would have Garnet, same that sits in teh Z22, and the specs wouldnt be much more. This would keep their price down, and not much in terms of new compoents needing to be made
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.

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