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  1.    #1  
    Here is the response I received from Palm regarding the "Freeze problem" forum;

    "...... we would like to inform you that we are aware of the forums found on Internet. However, we would like to inform you that forums are basically opinions of different people. There are some who tend to exaggerate the quality of Palm products to the extent that other Palm users would believe.

    If Palm products were basically like what you said, then maybe nobody would dare to use it. ......., its just so happen that those users who always complain had defective units. Technology doesn’t have perfect quality and there’s no such thing as free-defect product no matter how Technologist will try their best to make it perfect simply because there’s no such thing as perfect. Everything has its own end." Grace. Palm Technical Support - Asia Pacific Region

    That's it. I will NEVER buy another Palm product again.

    P.S. Yes it's from their tech support. Written verbatim. My name removed in case they get nasty with me.
    Last edited by The_Man; 09/24/2005 at 10:11 PM.
  2. #2  
    Is this really a formal response from Palm? Was it translated from another language?

    The grammar is terrible, making it very implausible, IMHO.
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    - Albert Einstein
  3. #3  
    I don't understand your anger. Everything they said was true
    visor deluxe->clie n760->treo 300->treo 600->treo 650 -> treo 700p -> treo 755p
    _________________________________________
    I may not know, but I'll bet my phone does!
  4. #4  
    I don't understand either. Nothing in the world is defect free. Every manufacturer of any type of product has some amount of defect, be it 1%, 0.1%, 0.01%, or whatever. Is Palm's higher than 1%, maybe.
    There is no such thing as 100% perfect. I don't believe that you've never had a problem with one consumer product you have in your house, whether it's a TV, phone, computer, etc. Every manufacture puts a tolerance on how much defect is considered allowable.
  5. #5  
    Actually... If that was a legit response from Palm, I have more respect for them after reading that. At least they tell the truth.

    I have never bought an electronic gadget that was 100% bug free. My only complaint against Palm is their crappy customer support policies.

    FWIW, I have had pretty good luck so far with my Treo 650. The Tungsten C is another story.
  6. #6  
    I think the Palm help desk section are just getting the brunt of the calls and just got plain tired of it.

    With the current letigation, more users may be coming with complains.
  7.    #7  
    No, I don't expect something to be perfect but I DO think it should do the job for which it was sold for.

    I payed MEGABUCKS for the 650. Why shouldn't I expect it to work? When I bought it, I wasn't told, "This is a phone and PDA but ONLY SOMETIMES WHEN IT WANTS TO WORK". Did they tell me that? No. When Palm listed all the cool features of this phone, did they once say, "Yes, and also you will be spending every weekend resetting it and re-loading software and writing endless emails to our tech support. But hey buddy, there is no such thing as a defect free product"? No.

    Imagine there are children dying in a car wreck down the end of my street. I can't call for help because my Treo is frozen. Is it appropriate to say, "There is no such thing as a defect-free product", in this case? Is it unreasonable to expect this thing to work properly?

    Imagine I bought a parachute. When I bought it they said, "There is a high possibility that this parachute is not going to open. You will die and all your family will have is a splodge on the ground. But hey, nothing is defect free". Is that really acceptable?

    Please keep in mind that I directed them to the thread regarding the freezing problem. This is not a one off occasional crash or small problem. This problem renders the unit unreliable and fairly USELESS. I RELY on my ohone for my income. If it doesn't work, I DON'T work. This is not a case of "a little problem". There are HUNDREDS of people suffering the same problem. Not just those on this forum.

    I think my anger is somewhat justified.

    If I buy a bathtub I expect it to hold water. If I buy a mobile phone, why shouldn't I expect it to make and receive calls?
    Last edited by The_Man; 09/25/2005 at 12:13 AM.
  8. #8  
    The Man, I don't disagree with you.

    If this is the only way to get Palm to deliver, then the best way to get their attention and shut them down is to sue them.

    By the same token, if someone made a product that allowed other people to steal your personal information easily, shouldn't anyone sue them as well?
  9. lardawge's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man
    Imagine I bought a parachute. When I bought it they said, "There is a high possibility that this parachute is not going to open. You will die and all your family will have is a splodge on the ground. But hey, nothing is defect free". Is that really acceptable?
    This is a direct quote from a disclaimer in the owners manual of a Performance Design manufactured parachute:

    "Disclaimer - No Warranty
    Because of the unavoidable danger associated with the use of this parachute, the manufacturer makes no warranty, either express or implied. It is sold with all faults and without any warranty of fitness for any purpose. The manufacturer also disclaims any liability in tort for damages, direct or consequential, including personal injuries resulting from a detect in design, material or workmanship or manufacturing whether caused by negligence on the part of the manufacturer or otherwise. By using this parachute assembly, or allowing it to be used by others, the user waives any liability of the manufacturer for personal injuries or other damages arising from such use. If the buyer declines to waive liability on the part of the manufacturer. The buyer may obtain a full refund of the purchase price by returning the parachute before it is used to the manufacturer within 15 days from the date of the original purchase with a letter stating why it was returned.

    WARNING!
    Each time you use this parachute you risk serious bodily injury or death."


    FYI, not a great example to use for this particular situation.
  10. #10  
    The Man, the majority of users are pretty happy with their treos. No doubt, they are a complicated design and maybe they have a higher rate of problems. (No one really knows about this.) However, most Treo users accept a few problems for the convienance and capabilities of the Treo. It sounds like you should trade yours in and find another phone or pda that meets your needs and is 100% reliable.
  11. rg1
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDuc
    ....
    I have never bought an electronic gadget that was 100% bug free. My only complaint against Palm is their crappy customer support policies.
    ...
    You should buy a TiVo.... works flawlessly out of the box.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man
    No, I don't expect something to be perfect but I DO think it should do the job for which it was sold for.

    I payed MEGABUCKS for the 650. Why shouldn't I expect it to work? When I bought it, I wasn't told, "This is a phone and PDA but ONLY SOMETIMES WHEN IT WANTS TO WORK". Did they tell me that? No. When Palm listed all the cool features of this phone, did they once say, "Yes, and also you will be spending every weekend resetting it and re-loading software and writing endless emails to our tech support. But hey buddy, there is no such thing as a defect free product"? No.

    Imagine there are children dying in a car wreck down the end of my street. I can't call for help because my Treo is frozen. Is it appropriate to say, "There is no such thing as a defect-free product", in this case? Is it unreasonable to expect this thing to work properly?

    Imagine I bought a parachute. When I bought it they said, "There is a high possibility that this parachute is not going to open. You will die and all your family will have is a splodge on the ground. But hey, nothing is defect free". Is that really acceptable?

    Please keep in mind that I directed them to the thread regarding the freezing problem. This is not a one off occasional crash or small problem. This problem renders the unit unreliable and fairly USELESS. I RELY on my ohone for my income. If it doesn't work, I DON'T work. This is not a case of "a little problem". There are HUNDREDS of people suffering the same problem. Not just those on this forum.

    I think my anger is somewhat justified.

    If I buy a bathtub I expect it to hold water. If I buy a mobile phone, why shouldn't I expect it to make and receive calls?

    Comparing a phone that isn't working the way you thought it might and then bringing up analogies of failed parachutes, failed bath tubs, and children dying in a car wreck says more about you than the defective phone.

    You have got to relax...it is just a phone...and in the whole scheme of things, it is reasonably priced and works well enough. This phone is a bit quirky for sure..and it is not for everyone. Perhaps, you over bought this phone. This is not a 'mega-bucks' product either. There are a fair number of phones in the $250 - $500 price range. A Ferrari? N ow that is a megabucks prodcut. Go back to a simpler, cheaper model and bring your heart rate down 20 points.

    Who cares if it is flawed...?

    Either you live with it or buy something else. It basically works and functions..I think many here have too high expectations and dwell too much on the more esoteric applications available. Despite what a manufacturer might claim in terms of reliablility and performance, it is the naive person that believes that what the manufacturer claims is actually what you are going to get.

    It is a decent phone and when something else comes out that betters it, then change. But until then, it is still the current top smart phone on the market (warts and all).
    Last edited by thebland; 09/25/2005 at 09:22 AM.
  13. #13  
    In the end, it is a complicated electronic device, and for all Palm's faults the 650 IS built more reliably than the previous model so at least they are improving there.

    I had an email exchange with PalmOne executive customer service just after buying the 650 in the initial week. Told them the real-life RAM was coming up at about 60 percent of what the Treo 600 holds. Amusingly (in retrospect) the PalmOne people (including engineers!) swore up and down the the storage in the 650 was EXACTLY the same as the 600, MAYBE a little less. I copied their response here and the Palm Kool-Aid faithful claimed I had made it up.

    Several days later, PalmOne posted their NVFS disclaimer (and apology piece) on their website.

    About 6 months later they posted a firmware update that nearly 'fixed' the non-problem they claimed in November.

    Bottom line: Palm doesn't give 2 hoots about the problems we discover in the forums by beta testing their products. From my first-hand experience I highly doubt they are even clever enough to monitor online forums to catch problems early on. Palm's continual derision of their customers has led to them making the deal with the M$ devil. If they can't get one operating system properly configured, how well will they do with two?

    Maybe the silver lining in the M$ agreement is that the memory situation will have to come up to 2003 levels, and that will bleed over to the next PalmOS version.
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  14. #14  
    The statement still holds that there is no such thing as a defect-free product.

    That said, I've posted on the "Freeze" thread a setting that MAY solve the problem. It did for Kyocera 7135's, and that same setting is on my T650, and I've never experienced the freeze problem.

    We'll know if this is truly a solution after others try it and report back...

    -Warr
    Progress? Well, at least I can get color traffic maps now...
    Psion 3a -> Psion 3c -> Palm IIIXE -> Palm VIIx -> Kyocera 7135 -> Treo 650 -> Centro
  15. #15  
    Even something as technologically simple as a pencil needs sharpening.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Palm CS
    Technology doesn’t have perfect quality and there’s no such thing as free-defect product no matter how Technologist will try their best to make it perfect simply because there’s no such thing as perfect. Everything has its own end." Grace. Palm Technical Support - Asia Pacific Region

    I beg to differ. The original Pilots never crashed, never lost data, never had color distortion (hehe), and did what they were supposed to effiecently and effectively. I fail to see similarities on any product in the Treo line, regardless of their [Palm's] promises of a better a device. If anything users today are better off buying a Palm IIIc or V off of eBay and purchasing a nifty little Nokia. Or jump ship to Symbian and go with the newer models in the 9xxx series. I used a 9210i in India for a few months, had excellent connectivity, multi-tasking, never crashed, etc. Basically everything we wanted from a Treo, and more. And guess what Palm? This one doesn't crash! Since you read these forums (or do you) maybe you should pick up on something. Consumers are not stupid. We do know how things work, and if not we probably know people who know how things work. Stop trying to BS us and start trying to get us out of the hole you have thrown us into. IMO you are not making us want to buy your products any more by calling us morons. I personally find this offending, and if I haven't said this before, I'll say it now. I WILL NEVER BUY A PALM PRODUCT AS LONG AS I LIVE. I have had it with the incompetence exhibited by these people. I wind up solving the problems CS creates for me, I'm sick of it. I'm going to Cingular and getting a new phone.
    Last edited by FrozenCode; 09/25/2005 at 01:31 PM.


  17. #17  
    Original Pilots NEVER crashed? I agree it was infrequent, but I certainly recall a crash or too. I'm not trying to justify Palm's ALLEGED response, I'm merely saying that some responses here are dramatic generalizations. Electronics are complex. Issues should always be expected. It's the LEVEL of issues (the shear number) that I would focus on, not the fact that there are ANY. Be realistic and stop the dramatic generalizations.

    The quoted response still does not sound official to me. It sounds too unprofessional. Just my opinion of course.
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    - Albert Einstein
  18. #18  
    Anything more complicated than "hello world" IS going to have bugs.. In fact I think that one study concurred that for a MATURE product, there would be 1 bug per 1000 lines. I can't imagine how many lines of code make up the Palm firmware and software.

    Glaring, easy to create, bad, data losing bugs.. Yes, those should obviously be fixed. Can Palm fix every single possible bug? No.

    First they can't afford to hire the testing staff in order to find even 95% of the bugs. Two, they can't run the development cycle forever in order to fix all the possible bugs found during testing or their product will have no market when it's released.

    Ideally the major bugs will be found in inside testing, then some sort of beta testing to get some of the scenarios that occur outside of a normal testing environment, then beyond that 'hotfixes' to fix the other bugs that customers find.

    Keep in mind that Palm tests their firmware and software, and tests their API. And *most likely* tests some of the MAJOR software packages. Beyond that, they aren't going to exhaustively test every program to make sure it works properly.

    I think a majority of the problems we see with the 650, T5, and any other Palm products with NVFS were initially some remaining bugs in a large and very new functionality in the product. And on top of that all the Palm software out there written in such a way that does not work with the Palm API perfectly and thus causes problems with the nvram cache.

    And to finish up, nobody can write fixes for any product forever. At the release of a product such as this, you keep some development and testing resources on the released product in order to find and fix bugs that internal testers or users find after release, and you develop, test, and release fixes. Eventually you have to cease this activity as your new upcoming product needs the resources.

    And the cycle begins again.
  19. #19  
    Dramatic generalization? Are you kidding me? Engineering 101, my friend, hardware is dependent on software. Not the other way around. We could stick a TB harddrive in the device and it wouldn't work. Why? The OS doesn't support it. My problem lies in that. Not chipset malfunctions, which too would be unjustified because electronics aren't as complicated as you think they are. They are composed not of one hardware device, but many parts with individual functions and addresses. There might be so many that we must use a hex system to number them all, but it's fairly simple. Embedded systems make a hardware device do ONE thing, not the hundreds of things an OS might do, but one simple little task. And not only that, that task only consists of two options...on or off (I'll leave the binary lessons out of this though). Electronics RARELY malfunction on their own. Software is the source of all problems. Palm put hardware into this device that no other company could have done in that little space. But what the hell was the point if it won't work with the software end. Software caused EVERY error displayed on the screen. The electronics did their job, the software on the other hand didn't. The problem there is that Palm had to have known this, seeing as how they used the device before they released it to the public. the next problem is that they made empty promises, caused more issues, and didn't want to do anything to fix it. CS would direct me to my carrier's CS and conversely, my carrier sent me to Palm's CS. This isn't a game my friend. It's a tool of productivity, I have better things to do than play phone tag with incompetent fools who couldn't tell me how to get their product to work like they said they would. It should have done that out of the box, I didn't know I'd have to buy things to make my phone work, an SD card here, a WiFi card there, all that adds up. I didn't pay all that money so I could tell what time it was based on the number of resets that have occured. I guess I falsely accused Palm as a whole. I love what the engineers did in that much of a case. My problem is that I can't use any of it because no one at Palm knows how to make it work! I have had numerous problems with this device. Maybe 48% I fixed by myself or through the help of other users (e.g. Shadowmite) the other 52% still has not been fixed. If no one at that company want's to give me a device that will work the way they say it will then I'll go somewhere where they will. ....Just my opinion of course.

    I'm sorry if some of that (the beginning especially) seems to be a yee bit rude, it's not intended that way.

    EDIT

    I agree with those who think that every single bug will never be fixed. That's not the problem. The problem is that the bugs in this device are so glaring and so large yet no one at Palm wants to fix it. I don't care if there is a bypass for security on some obscure application hidden away in the corner of my screen. I do care however that my phone keeps going into a recursive reboot, that the device cannot find a carrier regardless of signal strength, and that I need to spend more and more money to get the connectivity that Palm promised on but never delivered. And if I am thinking correctly (because sometimes I don't) those are the issues being addressed in the class action lawsuit.
    Last edited by FrozenCode; 09/25/2005 at 01:37 PM.


  20. #20  
    understanding that nothing is perfect, if so many people have had to request so many replacement units SOMETHING IS WRONG.
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