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  1. #641  
    Did you see the performance screen in SafeGuard? It is found in the Active Apps screen's menu.

    This performance screen will display performance data for every notificaiton that has been used on your Treo since the last soft reset. The times are measured in 100th of a second!

    http://GoTreoSoftware.com/Images/SG-NotifPerf.bmp

    Jeff
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    #642  
    Woah! In two and a half days my 680 is showing almost three million HEDE requests with an average performance number of 39. I guess I have a busy device… yeah it's a little sluggish by comparison with Charlie's Centro; her device doesn't see quite as much use!
  3. #643  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    Woah! In two and a half days my 680 is showing almost three million HEDE requests with an average performance number of 39. I guess I have a busy device… yeah it's a little sluggish by comparison with Charlie's Centro; her device doesn't see quite as much use!
    The 2.5M hits is pretty high, but an average performance number of 39 is VERY high! Your device has got to be very sluggish. What applications are using the hede notification?

    Jeff
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    #644  
    Stacks. Okay okay so let me have a look... hmm... there are 400 entries in the list, but those trapping HEDE are:

    SafeGuard-BG
    Initiate
    PowerHero
    Butler
    HID23
    SafeGuard-!!!

    It's SafeGuard that slows things down, if I remove it, the device feels much perkier. I could argue that I don't need SafeGuard any more as my Treo is nicely stable, but I do like to see the uptime statistic...
  5. #645  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    Stacks. Okay okay so let me have a look... hmm... there are 400 entries in the list, but those trapping HEDE are:

    SafeGuard-BG
    Initiate
    PowerHero
    Butler
    HID23
    SafeGuard-!!!

    It's SafeGuard that slows things down, if I remove it, the device feels much perkier. I could argue that I don't need SafeGuard any more as my Treo is nicely stable, but I do like to see the uptime statistic...
    SafeGurd does add time to notification execution. That is why during the initial Installation Wizard, SafeGaurd tells you that enabling Palm notificaitons may slow down your device. So typically, if you are not having a problem with background applications crashing, simply disable Palm Events in the Program Options screen. This will free up SafeGuard from tracking the execution of every notification.

    Jeff

    PS. The performance numbers returned in the Peformance windows do not include the SafeGuard overhead. In this way, the numbers reported are true performance indications notifications.
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    #646  
    I should have said that it wasn't a complaint; okay so my wife's Centro feels very zippy compared with my 680, but both are waaaay quicker than having to thumb through a 'phone book or resume Windows XP from hibernation. SafeGuard has helped me track down more than one naughty application and after a while I simply don’t notice the device being a little sluggish. But, yeah you're right, the 680 is *touch wood* nicely stable now so I'll disable SafeGuard's crash monitoring funkiness and see how things go. I'll report my numbers out of academic interest in a few days – if I understand what you've said, they probably won't be much different having SafeGuard not monitoring things..?
  7. #647  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    I should have said that it wasn't a complaint; okay so my wife's Centro feels very zippy compared with my 680, but both are waaaay quicker than having to thumb through a 'phone book or resume Windows XP from hibernation. SafeGuard has helped me track down more than one naughty application and after a while I simply don’t notice the device being a little sluggish. But, yeah you're right, the 680 is *touch wood* nicely stable now so I'll disable SafeGuard's crash monitoring funkiness and see how things go. I'll report my numbers out of academic interest in a few days – if I understand what you've said, they probably won't be much different having SafeGuard not monitoring things..?
    I'm glad SafeGuard has been helpful to you! If you disable SafeGuard's Palm Events Crash Monitor, all "extra" processing that SafeGuard does to track and monitor background notificaitons will be disabled. As a result, the device will act quickler and be more responsive. It is only necessary to disable the Palm Events Crassh Monitor to obtain this perfomance improvement. Basically the Palm Event monitor tracks the execution of EVER notification and this takes some time to accomplish. Especially if you have more then one application that processes the HEDE notification. Add on top of that an application that poorly coded the HEDE notification and your device will slow dramatically.

    So if your device is NOT showing any problems with applications that are crashing when they run in the background, simply disable the Palm Event Crash Monitor and your device will speed up. BUT if you start to see problems with unexplained device crashes, then re-enable the Palm Event Crash Monitor. SafeGuard will then be in aposition to try and capture the reason for the unexplained crashes.

    Does this make sence?

    Jeff
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    #648  
    I think I understand what you mean, yes, but it isn't the behaviour I see on my 680.

    On my device, as soon as I enable SafeGuard - even with the top three options disabled (Palm Events, Phone Events, Alarm Events) and with the lower two (Keep SD Card Mounted, Backup SafeGuard Files) I see a big performance drop.

    Using PalmInternals' Speed Test, I see a time of around 100 seconds with SafeGuard disabled and ~350 seconds with SafeGuard enabled, no matter what the settings are.

    Could another notification be causing a deceleration?
  9. #649  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    I think I understand what you mean, yes, but it isn't the behaviour I see on my 680.

    On my device, as soon as I enable SafeGuard - even with the top three options disabled (Palm Events, Phone Events, Alarm Events) and with the lower two (Keep SD Card Mounted, Backup SafeGuard Files) I see a big performance drop.

    Using PalmInternals' Speed Test, I see a time of around 100 seconds with SafeGuard disabled and ~350 seconds with SafeGuard enabled, no matter what the settings are.

    Could another notification be causing a deceleration?
    This does not seem to make sense based on the way I coded SafeGuard. Lets make sure you are using SafeGuard version 2.10. Next, when you have SafeGuard's Palm Event Crash Monitor disabled, you should not see any SafeGuard-BG or SafeGuard-!!!! processes in a Palm Internals' NOTIF report. If you see these files, this indicates you did not disable the Palm Event Crash Monitor. Remember the PI speed test only measures character processing. So this speed test will ONLY be effected based on the number of applications that are using HEDE and HVCH notifications. So the only way SafeGuard could be effecting this speed test is if there are any remaining SafeGuard processes using either of these 2 notifications. And there will be no SafeGuard processes using either of thee notifications if the Palm Event Crash Monitor is disabled.

    Jeff
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    #650  
    Hmm. Okay, well from the top I'm using version s2.10 b2.41 and SafeGuard's update feature says it's the most up to date available.

    With SafeGuard disabled I have the following using HEDE:

    PowerHero
    Initiate
    Butler
    HID23

    I have one application using HVCH:

    Genius

    If I then enable SafeGuard and select all options apart from Palm Events, give the device a reboot, PalmInternals shows the same notifications.

    But when I run a speed test, it shows 345 seconds, versus 101 when not running SafeGuard...

    Edit: this is what PalmInternals reports for the notification list with SafeGuard running but not trapping Palm events, it's cut off the last few, annoyingly:

    Notify information:
    count 338 of 340
    –––-pdb–––Protected database deletion
    •4 'MagicTones'
    •5 'PowerHero'
    •6 'Initiate'
    •7 'Butler'
    •13 'FacebookExgLib'
    •14 'Facebook-FcBk'
    •20 'HID23'
    –––CESG–––
    •33 'DateBk6-Resources'
    –––KEY!–––
    •46 'Butler'
    –––NAG!–––
    •47 'PowerHero'
    •48 'Phone Technician'
    •49 'Butler'
    –––REMs–––
    •70 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •71 'PowerHero'
    –––Rd01–––
    •72 'PowerHero'
    –––SnC5–––
    •74 'snapCalc5'
    –––SnC7–––
    •75 'snapCalc5'
    –––TrFx–––
    •77 'TreoFlex'
    –––bsbc–––
    •83 'Butler'
    –––cbar–––
    •110 'snapCalc5'
    –––dbcr–––
    •119 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •120 'Uninstall_Manager'
    –––dbs-–––Database deleted
    •124 'SafeGuard-Uninstall'
    •125 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •127 'Uninstall_Manager'
    •133 'HID23' pri 96
    –––ecna–––External connector attached
    •135 'PowerHero'
    –––ecnd–––External connector detached
    •138 'PowerHero'
    –––hapl–––
    •154 'Initiate' m68k 7338DF40 DBCache
    •155 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •156 'PrefDoctor'
    •157 'Uninstall_Manager'
    •158 'Butler'
    •160 'HID23'
    –––hapq–––
    •161 'Initiate' m68k 7338E03A DBCache
    •162 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •163 'Uninstall_Manager'
    •164 'MagicTones'
    •166 'HID23'
    –––hede–––
    •167 'PowerHero' m68k 733A75E8 DBCache
    •168 'Initiate' m68k 7338DB96 DBCache
    •169 'Butler' m68k 73368892 DBCache
    •170 'HID23'
    –––hots–––Hotsync started
    •178 'Initiate'
    •179 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •180 'snapCalc5'
    •183 'Uninstall_Manager'
    •186 'MagicTones'
    •187 'PowerHero'
    •188 'Butler'
    •195 'FacebookExgLib'
    •199 'BackupBuddyVFS'
    –––hvch–––
    •204 'Genius'
    –––lazy–––Late wakeup
    •208 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •213 'Butler'
    •219 'HID23'
    –––neti–––Network interface up/down
    •244 'PowerHero'
    –––scrs–––
    •259 'PalmInternals'
    •260 'snapCalc5'
    –––slp!–––Before sleep
    •269 'SafeGuard' m68k 731317F2 DBCache
    •272 'PowerHero'
    –––slpq–––Ack about sleep
    •276 'Butler'
    •281 'HID23'
    –––sync–––Hotsync finished
    •290 'Uninstall_Manager'
    •300 'FacebookExgLib'
    •304 'BackupBuddyVFS'
    –––time–––Manual time change
    •321 'BackupBuddyVFS'
    –––unlk–––Device is unlocked
    •324 'HID23'
    –––volm–––Volume mounted
    •328 'Initiate'
    Last edited by DervMan; 09/30/2008 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Added more information...
  11. #651  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    Hmm. Okay, well from the top I'm using version s2.10 b2.41 and SafeGuard's update feature says it's the most up to date available.
    This tells me everything is working correctly with SafeGuard. The data you posted is also telling me that PI must be registering and unregistering for every character it is processing to determine the speed test. PI's speed test measures the amount of time it takes PI to send and receive 10,000 charaters to/from the operating system queue. With the Palm Event Crash Monitor disabled, the only processing SafeGuard is doing is to log each time an applicaiton registers/unregisters for a notification. All SG processing during the actual execution of notificaitons has been disabled. So the performance number you are getting from Palm internals is not accurate in showing your device's notification processing capabilities. This is a great example of why PI's speed measurement is not accurate for determining the actual speed of your device. The numbers from PI are very relative and becuase of the way PI and SG are coded, an artificially high speed number is being reported by PI's speed test. It is not at all realistic to report the time it takes to register for a notification, send a character to the operating system queue, extract the character from the queue and then unregister for the notification.

    This is the ONLY explanation I can provide for the numbers you are getting with/without SafeGuard enabled. It would be great if Igor Nesterov was still around to validate this behavior. He is the one that developed PI. But I can tell you that I am very familiar with the internals of the Palm operating system and this is my best interpretation of the results you are seeing. My assumption is that you can not see or feel the effect of SafeGuard when the Palm Event Crash Monitor is not enabled.

    Jeff
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    #652  
    My assumption is that you can not see or feel the effect of SafeGuard when the Palm Event Crash Monitor is not enabled.
    Hmm. Unfortunately, the device is noticeably more responsive when SafeGuard is disabled rather than just the Palm Event flag. I don't find it an issue other than when SafeGuard isn't running and it feels quicker to use.
  13. #653  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    Hmm. Unfortunately, the device is noticeably more responsive when SafeGuard is disabled rather than just the Palm Event flag. I don't find it an issue other than when SafeGuard isn't running and it feels quicker to use.
    That's interesting. But you do have a rather busy Treo with 340 registered notifications. In what way does your Treo feel sluggish with SafeGuard installed? During application launches, key presses, etc.....

    Jeff
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    #654  
    It's sluggish when launching or closing applications. I use the Palm Bluetooth Keyboard, and there's a noticeable but not annoying lag when using this with SafeGuard.

    SafeGuard is showing an average HEDE of 34 this morning with ~56,000 events. HVCH has a time of 35 and ~11,500 events. Are these still high numbers?
  15. #655  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    It's sluggish when launching or closing applications. I use the Palm Bluetooth Keyboard, and there's a noticeable but not annoying lag when using this with SafeGuard.
    SG is logging each app launch and storing the information. How large is your application log configured to be in SG?

    SafeGuard is showing an average HEDE of 34 this morning with ~56,000 events. HVCH has a time of 35 and ~11,500 events. Are these still high numbers?
    Yes these are large numbers. My average HEDE is around 2 on my Centro! But you have several applications hooking these events. Rob at Hobbyist does a good job with his applications but the 4 you are using can be intensive on their use of HEDE/HVCH events.

    Its simply a matter of processing power vs. demand. The more you have this little device do in the background, the less processing power you have for things you do in the foreground. The goal of SafeGuard was to allow people to see what is running or has previously run in the background and help you manage your device by providing you with information that is not available in any other Palm application. As with any monitoring software, there is some overhead consumed. Doesn't matter if it is a mainframe, desktop computer or your Palm handheld. Until SafeGuard was developed, much of this information was either too technical or simply impossible to obtain. SG opened the Palm warpper and does it in a way that it can be used by both non-technical and technical people.

    Jeff
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    #656  
    SafeGuard is configured to log the last 80 applications (I think this is what you meant). I think this is higher than standard - should I try reducing it to see if it improves device performance? That might explain why things are less responsive with SafeGuard running even if it isn't monitoring HEDE instructions. I've now reduced this to 20 but it hasn't made any difference (so far).

    I'm not unhappy with the 680's running speed. Charlie's Centro is much snappier in the hand but my device can launch aplications much quicker as I use Butler's anywhere favourites rather than changing categories (amongst other applications...).

    Upon reading almost all of the pages in this discussion over an extended lunch break *cough*, I would have put the sluggishness down to the interoperation between HID23 (the Palm Wireless Bluetooth Keyboard Driver) and SafeGuard, for some reason.

    I only have the keyboard driver enabled when using it, which is quite often, but having it enabled or otherwise makes no difference to where it sits in PalmInternals' report. I'm loathe to remove it. In the past when I've moved the driver to the memory card using SafeGuard, it caused some problems with the application and ultimately I'm going to use it anyway! ;-)

    By the end of lunch, my HEDE time was at 36, which is consistently what I've been seeing...
    Last edited by DervMan; 10/01/2008 at 07:45 AM. Reason: Adding some more information...
  17. #657  
    Quote Originally Posted by DervMan View Post
    SafeGuard is configured to log the last 80 applications (I think this is what you meant). I think this is higher than standard - should I try reducing it to see if it improves device performance? That might explain why things are less responsive with SafeGuard running even if it isn't monitoring HEDE instructions. I've now reduced this to 20 but it hasn't made any difference (so far).
    80 is large indeed. You may want to stop SafeGuard and remote the file /SafeGuard/LaunchLog in the hidden volume in the main memory of your device. You can access the hidden volume with FileZ. Thee re-enable SafeGuard.

    I'm not unhappy with the 680's running speed. Charlie's Centro is much snappier in the hand but my device can launch aplications much quicker as I use Butler's anywhere favourites rather than changing categories (amongst other applications...).
    Well the Centro is a faster device but not by a significant amount. Part of the issue you are having is the amount of applications you have running in the background.

    Upon reading almost all of the pages in this discussion over an extended lunch break *cough*, I would have put the sluggishness down to the interoperation between HID23 (the Palm Wireless Bluetooth Keyboard Driver) and SafeGuard, for some reason.

    I only have the keyboard driver enabled when using it, which is quite often, but having it enabled or otherwise makes no difference to where it sits in PalmInternals' report. I'm loathe to remove it. In the past when I've moved the driver to the memory card using SafeGuard, it caused some problems with the application and ultimately I'm going to use it anyway! ;-)
    I have not seen a keyboard driver that does not cause problems. Most of them seem to not only slow down the device but they seem to cause device stability problems.

    By the end of lunch, my HEDE time was at 36, which is consistently what I've been seeing...
    Again this is pretty high. This means that there is over 1/3 of a second spent processing the event queue on your device! Almost EVERYTHING passes through the event queue. This includes key presses, pen touches, virtual internal operating system events, etc.... So think about a simple keypress: it generates at least 2 events. One for the key down and another for the key up. If you pressed a special key like a space bar or a hard key, there are additional events sent on top of the key down/up. All of a sudden you are exceeding a second for a single key press if you are seeing 36 as an average HEDE event. I can see why you say your device is sluggish. It is very busy doing event processing. The only way to speed it up is to reduce the number of HEDE applications.

    Jeff
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