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  1. jacobh's Avatar
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    #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by Franko515
    shift+center is for selecting text? can anybody explain how i use the select text feature of treokeyhack?
    Thanks in advance

    by the way treokeyhack is one of the best apps i have, still like keycaps but now i have no need for it
    Hold shift and press left or right with your 5way. This will select text. I think if you have the latest version then holding shift and pressing the center button will bring up copy/paste options.
  2. #282  
    In your opinion which is a better option?

    doomseys- new keycaps and field plus
    igor ns- new treokeyhack and yahm
    Wisdom sheds light on the knowledge you have accumulated

    Palm Pre (Sprint)
  3. #283  
    I'm using doomsey's keycaps because YAHM uses API that is not officially supported or documented by PalmSource, AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK.

    That is not to say that YAHM causes any problems .. Most folks in this thread use it.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  4. #284  
    Basically, TreoKeyHack implements more or less the same thing as the following collection of programs:
    * FieldPlus
    * Keycaps600
    * Butler (for volume up/down to 5way mapping and K-Launch).

    The overhead associated with processing the HEDE notification (i.e., amount of time spent doing processing when not dealing with keyboard events) is about the same for my modified versions of Keycaps and FieldPlus along with Butler as for TreoKeyHack. TreoKeyHack is going to be faster when dealing with actual key events, but I doubt any speed difference will ever be noticed in operation.

    TreoKeyCaps is quite a bit less configurable than the Butler/FieldPlus/Keycaps stack. Keycaps allows more flexibility in choosing timeouts for hold and double-tap (10ms intervals instead of 50). My latest version of KeyCaps adds explicit control for the repeat rate, which allows the scroll speed to be adjusted independently of the delay for the hold function. And FieldPlus offers several options controlling exactly how selection works, and controlling the operation performed with shift+center.

    I personally find the controls offered by TreoKeyHack to be a little bit restrictive. I settled on a value of 170ms for the hold time, for instance; TreoKeyCaps would make me choose between 150ms, which was a bit too short, or 200ms, which felt a bit too long. And being able to independently control repeat rate is a really nice feature (though I'll bet Igor will add it to TreoKeyHack tommorow!).

    What do I recommend? Well, if you already use Butler, Keycaps+FieldPlus is a pretty clear winner in my mind due to the flexability of the combined system. If you like the volume functionality of TreoKeyHack but don't already use Butler, the decision is a bit less clear. I'd probably still recommend the KeyCaps+FieldPlus combination because I like the ability to control the repeat rate, but the volume-key mapping is quite useful...

    I have no plans to integrate Butler features into KeyCaps, as I'm a happy user of Butler and see no need to re-implement its functionality.
  5. #285  
    ty for the reply doomsey, i have made my mind up, its keycaps and fieldplus . and yes i have butler but never use the scroll
    Wisdom sheds light on the knowledge you have accumulated

    Palm Pre (Sprint)
  6. #286  
    What about the silence key clicks function of TreoKeyHack? This feature made me stay with Igor's app.
    Last edited by MFB; 07/30/2005 at 02:42 AM.
  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by igor_n
    http://yahm.palmoid.com/TreoKeyHack.prc 0.5.1
    * Shift+Center works with 650. (Huh. P1 developers have found good drug dealer, 3 different APIs for 5-way pad seems to be too much...)
    * Experimental Favorite Anywhere option: when hold is set to L-U-O or L-O-U, that the fourth action will be favorite launch
    shift+center lets me highlight text, and shift center brings up the cut, paste, command bar popup. But when the pop up appears if you let go the center button to scroll down to paste the the popup is gone. its damn near impossible to hold the center button and scroll down, then once you finally do get to the right one how would i select it if when i let the center button go it disappears am i missing something?
    Wisdom sheds light on the knowledge you have accumulated

    Palm Pre (Sprint)
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by MFB
    What about the silence key clicks function of TreoKeyHack? This feature made me stay with Igor's app.
    There's no way to kill the system key click sounds without affecting other sounds without patching the system sound syscalls. In other words, you basically need YAHM to do this. I'm not writing YAHM hacks at the moment - mostly because I haven't figured out how to use YAHM to write the one hack that I actually want to have. Without using YAHM, there's no way for me to write code that does this.

    There's also no point. There's a YAHM hack that just removes the key click: http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fu...1&prodID=43160. It's actually configurable, it'll remove whatever system sounds you tell it to and leave the rest. Unlike TreoKeyHack, it's essentially zero overhead as it patches the just the system sound call, and works great.

    But the system key click doesn't actually bother me much, so I just ignore it rather than patch it out. I usually have sound off on my Treo, anyway.
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    YAHM uses API that is not officially supported or documented by PalmSource, AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK.
    Is my statement above correct?

    Is there ANY risk to using YAHM hacks?
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  10. jacobh's Avatar
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    #290  
    When I used FieldsPlus, the text selection didn't work at all with PsMemo. TreoKeyHack's text selection seems to work fine with PsMemo. PsMemo is my favorite memo writer (it has a bunch of handy buttons at the bottom), so I think I'm going to keep TreoKeyHack and Butler.
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Is my statement above correct?
    Yes, palmSource has explicitly indicated that the notifications API used by Butler, Fieldplus, keyshades, keycaps, etc is the official replacement for the system call patching API, which has been removed as of Palm OS 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Is there ANY risk to using YAHM hacks?
    Yes, there is. But there's risk in any software, even software that uses only approved interfaces. There's really only two additional risks involved in using YAHM or other applications that use undocumented interfaces:

    * The risk that Igor didn't properly reverse-engineer the current version of PalmOS
    * The risk that Palm or palmSource will change the interfaces in a future, unreleased version of palmOS.

    The first risk is fairly small. YAHM is a reasonably old piece of software, and it's worked well for many people for a long time. The second risk is also relatively small, as YAHM has worked with releases of OS5 from the first Sony devices through the current NVFS devices. It will never work with PalmOS 6, but Palm seems unlikely to release a PalmOS6-based upgrade to the Treo. Therefore, I would be surprised if any a future upgrade to the Treo will break it.

    Software has bugs. No one knows how to write software without bugs, with the exception of a few mathematicians, who can write provably-correct but absolutely useless software in languages you've never heard of. So I can't assert that there's no risk to any given piece of software. Certainly I can't assert it on my own!

    But frankly, I think that in PalmOS 5.4+NVFS, there are more risks of instability from the possibly-unreliable method of locking data in RAM that older versions of YAHM use than there are from the fact that YAHM uses undocumented interfaces. Igor is working on a fix for this, although it's not entirely stable yet. Once this stabilizes, I am reasonably confident that YAHM hacks will be as stable on the Treo as any other software that uses approved interfaces to run in the background.
  12. #292  
    Thanks for the detailed explanation.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  13. jacobh's Avatar
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    #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by doomsey
    But frankly, I think that in PalmOS 5.4+NVFS, there are more risks of instability from the possibly-unreliable method of locking data in RAM that older versions of YAHM use than there are from the fact that YAHM uses undocumented interfaces. Igor is working on a fix for this, although it's not entirely stable yet.
    Or, you can just use Resco Locker to lock things into ram.
  14. #294  
    Although you can use Resco Locker to lock YAHM itself into memory, it's not YAHM itself that needs to be locked. It doesn't lock the actual hacks in memory.
  15. jacobh's Avatar
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    #295  
    I assume all of your apps lock them selves into memory properly for NVFS. Do you know if FieldPlus does?
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by jacobh
    I assume all of your apps lock them selves into memory properly for NVFS. Do you know if FieldPlus does?
    I do assume that my applications lock themselves properly in memory. I don't use exactly the same technique that Igor is working on, but it's the same general technique - I allocate immovable chunks of memory and copy the application code into them, bypassing the NVFS entirely. It's possible that there are bugs in palmOne's handling of storage memory that will cause these chunks to be moved, but the documentation clearly indicates that they shouldn't be.

    FieldPlus uses sublaunch event hooks, so it doesn't need to be locked into memory; the OS will automatically bring it into the cache if it's evicted and no crashes will result. (It may be beneficial to lock it anyway, but Resco Locker doesn't appear to support locking preference panels.) The FieldPlus Notify shim I wrote uses pointer callbacks, and the same locking technique I use for the other applications.
  17. #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by doomsey
    I do assume that my applications lock themselves properly in memory. I don't use exactly the same technique that Igor is working on, but it's the same general technique - I allocate immovable chunks of memory and copy the application code into them, bypassing the NVFS entirely. It's possible that there are bugs in palmOne's handling of storage memory that will cause these chunks to be moved, but the documentation clearly indicates that they shouldn't be.

    FieldPlus uses sublaunch event hooks, so it doesn't need to be locked into memory; the OS will automatically bring it into the cache if it's evicted and no crashes will result. (It may be beneficial to lock it anyway, but Resco Locker doesn't appear to support locking preference panels.) The FieldPlus Notify shim I wrote uses pointer callbacks, and the same locking technique I use for the other applications.
    Why don't you (and everybody) use the Field+ technique? That seems to be the most foolproof (and flexible .. allowing the OS to manage the memory efficiently, as needed).
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  18. #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Why don't you (and everybody) use the Field+ technique? That seems to be the most foolproof (and flexible .. allowing the OS to manage the memory efficiently, as needed).
    Short answer: it's too slow.

    It takes several milliseconds to do a sublaunch, whereas using pointer callbacks for notifications only takes a few instructions. That's not much on its own, but some applications send through hundreds of events a second, and the notification must be sent to each registered application for each event. If they're all using sublaunch, this adds up fast.

    Examples of applications that can be dramatically slowed down in this way have been discussed extensively in this thread, and include the Treo 650 pictures application and the file search in Docs To Go.

    This discussion is going in circles quite remarkably!
    Last edited by doomsey; 07/30/2005 at 05:31 PM.
  19. #299  
    Sorry, my fault. This is one huge multifaceted thread.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  20. #300  
    Achieving high performance in constrained systems is never simple.

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