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  1. #201  
    After reading all of this thread, and doing some trials of PalmInternals AND just using my Treo 650 normally, I'd like to inject a few words of common sense.

    I'm reminded of certain digital photography forums where many (if not most) of the posters are more interested in finding flaws that in taking photographs. They take pictures of test targets, brick walls, newspaper classifieds and the like, and then view the images on their monitor at sizes that no one would ever view a real photograph, and then cry and wail over imperfections in their equipment that no one would ever see in normal use. Those of us who prefer to make photographs call them 'measurebaters.'

    I think we may have a bit too much measurebating going on here. Yes, some of these background apps will slow your Treo. But after spending a couple of hours playing around with various combinations of Butler, Profiles, Keycaps, KBLights and others, I find that the real world difference between, say, 70 seconds, 36 seconds, and 10 seconds, for my normal everyday usage, is negligible.

    PalmInternals does it's speed test, I think, by performaing 10,000 events in a minute or two. How often is that going to happen in the real world? Never! Say in normal usage I trigger 10,000 events in 1 hour (which I strongly doubt). That means I'll save perhaps a minute an hour in delays caused by background apps. If it takes me all day to generate 10,000 events, that's a minute a day. I've already spent more time writing this post than I'd save in a month of Treo use at that rate.

    So I've gotten rid of a couple of resource hogs that I don't really use. But the functionality of KeyCaps, Profiles, KBLights and Butler (to name a few) are way to important for me to give them up for some measurable, but otherwise undetectable, performance gain.

    OTOH, we all use our Treo's differently. If you really do detect a significant improvement in real world performance after getting rid of these background processes, and that performance gain is worth more to you than the functionality the apps provide, then by all means delete to your heart's content.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  2. wpwoodjr's Avatar
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    #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    After reading all of this thread, and doing some trials of PalmInternals AND just using my Treo 650 normally, I'd like to inject a few words of common sense.

    I'm reminded of certain digital photography forums where many (if not most) of the posters are more interested in finding flaws that in taking photographs. They take pictures of test targets, brick walls, newspaper classifieds and the like, and then view the images on their monitor at sizes that no one would ever view a real photograph, and then cry and wail over imperfections in their equipment that no one would ever see in normal use. Those of us who prefer to make photographs call them 'measurebaters.'

    I think we may have a bit too much measurebating going on here. Yes, some of these background apps will slow your Treo. But after spending a couple of hours playing around with various combinations of Butler, Profiles, Keycaps, KBLights and others, I find that the real world difference between, say, 70 seconds, 36 seconds, and 10 seconds, for my normal everyday usage, is negligible.

    PalmInternals does it's speed test, I think, by performaing 10,000 events in a minute or two. How often is that going to happen in the real world? Never! Say in normal usage I trigger 10,000 events in 1 hour (which I strongly doubt). That means I'll save perhaps a minute an hour in delays caused by background apps. If it takes me all day to generate 10,000 events, that's a minute a day. I've already spent more time writing this post than I'd save in a month of Treo use at that rate.

    So I've gotten rid of a couple of resource hogs that I don't really use. But the functionality of KeyCaps, Profiles, KBLights and Butler (to name a few) are way to important for me to give them up for some measurable, but otherwise undetectable, performance gain.

    OTOH, we all use our Treo's differently. If you really do detect a significant improvement in real world performance after getting rid of these background processes, and that performance gain is worth more to you than the functionality the apps provide, then by all means delete to your heart's content.
    Hey Bob, are you the Bob Meyer of Epson Orange Shift fame? ;-)

    Anyway, I thought the same as you about these tests until I did some timings in the Media application. The picture-to-picture display time in Media went down from 3.8 to 1.5 seconds after removing VolKeys and KeyCaps, and movies were less jerky. YAHM plus TreoKeyHack replaces these other apps nicely.

    - Bill
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       #203  
    meyerweb, I'm a bit perplexed by the tone of your post. The real-world improvement from removing or replacing these hogs is real and in some cases significant. IMO, there is almost ALWAYS room for improvement in programs and speed is just one area where improvements can be made. If this thread inspires developers to create more efficient programs, then I feel it has been a success.

    Anyway, if you are going to continue to use "KeyCaps, Profiles, KBLights and Butler", I can recommend you turn off Auto Mode in KBLights and I recommend you use TreoKeyHack or the modified Keycaps to optimize performance. Butler is pretty efficient. It adds about 4 seconds to my speed test. There are bigger fish to fry IMO than Butler. I don't think there is an alternative to Profiles. If you are stuck using some of the hogs, then I recommend contacting the authors to see if improvements can be made. It's definitely worth a shot given the positive response I've seen from developers here.
  4. #204  
    Well, to each his own. My primary uses are email, web browsing, and Datebk 5. I notice no real change in performance with any of those apps. (Yes, there are HUGE changes in the benchmark, but benchmarks frequently don't reflect the real world.)

    I am using the newest version of Keycaps. I've had more problem with KeyHack, so I switched back. Like I said, I've used my Treo, in normal use, with auto mode (in KBlights) on and off, and just don't see any real difference in my usage. I can detect a change with Profiles, but it's very small, and the benefit of the app greatly outweighs the performance hit. (With these apps enabled, I get a result of about 3600 / 36 seconds. Maybe if I was up in the 1200 second range I'd feel differently.)

    I have no issue with developers improving their apps. That's a great thing. I just don't think we should get hung up on small performance differences at the expense of functionality. Heck, I could do a hard reset and go back to a plain-Jane, ROM software only Treo. It would perform better on the benchmark, but it would perform a lot worse as a real-world tool. If I got rid of KeyCaps, I'd waste a lot more time hitting the shift and option buttons while typing than any gain in benchmark speed would get me back. And having to constantly change multiple settings when I go into different settings would cost me far more time and hassle than any performance improvement from deleting Profiles is going to be worth.

    The real performance improvement is what the Treo does for me, not how many milliseconds it takes to do it. Giving up functionality just doesn't make sense, to me.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by WPWoodJr
    Hey Bob, are you the Bob Meyer of Epson Orange Shift fame? ;-)

    Anyway, I thought the same as you about these tests until I did some timings in the Media application. The picture-to-picture display time in Media went down from 3.8 to 1.5 seconds after removing VolKeys and KeyCaps, and movies were less jerky. YAHM plus TreoKeyHack replaces these other apps nicely.

    - Bill
    LOL, my fame exceeds me Yep, that's me.

    If I did a lot of playing around with photos, that might matter to me, but in the things I use I just don't see any significant difference. I also don't see any real difference in performance between the lastest keycaps and KeyHack (even in the benchmark). KeyHack doesn't do all the things I use Butler for, and it certainly won't replace Profiles.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
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       #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Well, to each his own.
    Indeed. There are plenty of pleased people here.
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       #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by igor_n
    Anyway, next week YAHM/YAHMLib releases will copy code segment to dynamic heap on NVFS devices.
    Sounds good igor. Thanks.
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by Franko515
    HELP IGOR N PLEASE

    I just started using Treokeyhack and it doesnít bypass the system autocaps for the 1st letter (i.e. in memos if I wanna take notes and start with a number, say 1, hold set to e>E>1, I hold e and it types E1. I know its kinda base off of keycaps but this isnít a problem in keycaps. I find your hack very useful as it takes the place of three other apps and it doesnít slow my treo by running in hede, so I hope this is something you would be willing to look into.



    Thanks in advance
    It's strange. At first I thought it wasn't happening with me, but it definitely is happening to mine also exactly as you described. Is there a fix for that yet?
    Well, it isn't perfect and it makes me crazy, but I still do love my Treo!
    Sprint Treo 650 CDMA
  9. #209  
    I know this is probably elementary, but I can't figure out what to do with the information PalmInternals is giving me.
    It shows a worm in the Notif log, and I now have an alert asterisk flashing, but I don't know how to find it or what to do about it.
    The Notif log says:
    .220 'TFFS' arm 20639524 ref
    6454E644
    ---worm---Early wakeup

    Thanks,
    Morgan
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTreoGuy
    It's strange. At first I thought it wasn't happening with me, but it definitely is happening to mine also exactly as you described. Is there a fix for that yet?
    i went back to the original keycaps650pre1. with treokeyhack it doesnt work on the first letter ( if i wanna type 1 first i get E1) and with the patched keyshades i get slow scroll speed unless i have hold value set to 100. so i went back to the original . no problems at all, but it slow down my speed test by 43sec.

    maybe doomsey patched the wrong one for the 650 , they do have two, one is keycaps 650 and the other is keycaps650pre1.

    i will post it and maybe he can try to patch this one and see if that fixes the scroll speed problem
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Wisdom sheds light on the knowledge you have accumulated

    Palm Pre (Sprint)
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by Franko515
    i went back to the original keycaps650pre1. with treokeyhack it doesnt work on the first letter ( if i wanna type 1 first i get E1) and with the patched keyshades i get slow scroll speed unless i have hold value set to 100. so i went back to the original . no problems at all, but it slow down my speed test by 43sec.

    maybe doomsey patched the wrong one for the 650 , they do have two, one is keycaps 650 and the other is keycaps650pre1.

    i will post it and maybe he can try to patch this one and see if that fixes the scroll speed problem
    What is the difference between keycaps 650 and keycaps650pre1? I don't think I've seen pre1 before. When I went and re-dloaded it was just keycaps650 (and of course, they still never fixed it to show up as 650 in the icon list so it still says 600).
    Well, it isn't perfect and it makes me crazy, but I still do love my Treo!
    Sprint Treo 650 CDMA
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTreoGuy
    What is the difference between keycaps 650 and keycaps650pre1? I don't think I've seen pre1 before. When I went and re-dloaded it was just keycaps650 (and of course, they still never fixed it to show up as 650 in the icon list so it still says 600).
    dont know the difference just the latest one. this is where i got it
    Keycaps650pre1
    Wisdom sheds light on the knowledge you have accumulated

    Palm Pre (Sprint)
  13. NRG
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    #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by pqfnb2
    I know this is probably elementary, but I can't figure out what to do with the information PalmInternals is giving me.
    It shows a worm in the Notif log, and I now have an alert asterisk flashing, but I don't know how to find it or what to do about it.
    The Notif log says:
    .220 'TFFS' arm 20639524 ref
    6454E644
    ---worm---Early wakeup

    Thanks,
    Morgan
    Maybe Scandlex's posts on the first page of this thread might help you.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    After reading all of this thread, and doing some trials of PalmInternals AND just using my Treo 650 normally, I'd like to inject a few words of common sense.

    I'm reminded of certain digital photography forums where many (if not most) of the posters are more interested in finding flaws that in taking photographs. They take pictures of test targets, brick walls, newspaper classifieds and the like, and then view the images on their monitor at sizes that no one would ever view a real photograph, and then cry and wail over imperfections in their equipment that no one would ever see in normal use. Those of us who prefer to make photographs call them 'measurebaters.'

    I think we may have a bit too much measurebating going on here. Yes, some of these background apps will slow your Treo. But after spending a couple of hours playing around with various combinations of Butler, Profiles, Keycaps, KBLights and others, I find that the real world difference between, say, 70 seconds, 36 seconds, and 10 seconds, for my normal everyday usage, is negligible.

    PalmInternals does it's speed test, I think, by performaing 10,000 events in a minute or two. How often is that going to happen in the real world? Never! Say in normal usage I trigger 10,000 events in 1 hour (which I strongly doubt). That means I'll save perhaps a minute an hour in delays caused by background apps. If it takes me all day to generate 10,000 events, that's a minute a day. I've already spent more time writing this post than I'd save in a month of Treo use at that rate.

    So I've gotten rid of a couple of resource hogs that I don't really use. But the functionality of KeyCaps, Profiles, KBLights and Butler (to name a few) are way to important for me to give them up for some measurable, but otherwise undetectable, performance gain.

    OTOH, we all use our Treo's differently. If you really do detect a significant improvement in real world performance after getting rid of these background processes, and that performance gain is worth more to you than the functionality the apps provide, then by all means delete to your heart's content.

    Common sense isnt really that common meyerweb. You obviously looked over the fact that the people on this thread are experiencing something you dont. Before being introduced to Palminternals, I thought my Treo was doing fine. I just accepted Jot's speed and text plus occasional slugishness. Im not going to mention the other things I just accepted as this post might just get longer.

    My speedtest before was a little over 600 secs. I had apps that I didnt know was actually causing the slowdown of my Treo. I regret emailing Cic and complaining about Jot not functioning with 1800k db cache left when it was actually the fault of other applications.

    Im now down to only 21 secs and have been crash free for quite sometime now. With ProfileCare enabled, its 68 secs. I just excluded apps that I need more cpu for so its really not a problem now. I've installed Resco Locker and now am able to launch big apps from card via PowerRun (Spreadsheet 3.2m and Village Sim 4m) even with just 2000k free, 15000 max db cache available. Previously launching these with very low db cache resulted in a crash.

    The least you can do is to just be an observer and not mock those who want better performance from the Treo and software they are using. Its best to know what choices we have. Using Palminternals gives us the choice as to which software to use for what specific function. I didnt trade off functionality for speed. I merely reconfigured my set up to get the same functionality for a better treo experience.
    Last edited by MFB; 07/26/2005 at 02:28 AM.
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by igor_n
    http://yahm.palmoid.com/TreoKeyHack.prc . It's a YAHM hack for
    1. Typing Caps and Opts like KeyCaps
    2. Shift+Arrows - select text
    3. Shift+Select - menu (Copy/Paste/Cmd bar)

    Tested on Treo 600 only.
    In my Treo 650,
    1. I can do typing Caps. I do not know how it's supposed to work with Opts key
    2. Shift+Arrow - select text. This works perfectly!
    3. Shift+Select - menu. This does not work. Any Treo 650 user who was able to use this, please help.

    Igor_n, great work!
  16. #216  
    New PalmInternals 1.9.144. An attempt to make crash a bit safer ;-)
    http://yahm.palmoid.com/palminternals.prc
  17. #217  
    Palminternals always crashes my Treo 600 about halfway through reading the databases. Would anyone have a clue why this might be happening? I'd really like to use Palminternals.
    Shneor
    Pre 3 on T-Mobile, 32gb Touchpad
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by shneor
    Palminternals always crashes my Treo 600 about halfway through reading the databases. Would anyone have a clue why this might be happening? I'd really like to use Palminternals.
    Does the latest version 1.9.144 crashes too?
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by igor_n
    Does the latest version 1.9.144 crashes too?
    The version I downlaoded on July 18, the latest at the time, still crashes.
    Shneor
    Pre 3 on T-Mobile, 32gb Touchpad
  20. #220  
    MFB:

    I don't think I'm mocking anybody. I'm trying to point out that there are two sides to this story. People here seem to be in a rush to uninstall almost everything that uses hede, regardless of the impact on real productivity.

    Is gaining a few seconds here and there really worth giving up essential (or highly useful) functionality? Getting rid of rarely used apps to gain performance makes sense. Giving up highly desirable functionality may not. I think it's important to make that point. I also commented that each person should draw their own conclusions as to what was important.

    And if removing this software gained you more stability, that's great. But I'm not at all convinced its because the software used hede. It's more likely that it's just unreliable software, or interacted badly with other apps. There's plenty of software that doesn't use hede that causes my Treo to crash, so I don't use it.

    If ultimate performance, as measured by Palm Internals is what people are after, they should simply do a hard reset and use no 3rd party software. It'll just f'ing fly on the benchmark.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.

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