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  1. #21  
    To assume that the next Treo does not NEED WiFi to meet market demands implies that every other device maker's research is flawed. Because they are already including WiFi in their smart phones. Even the Tungsten C has WiFi. So Palm already has it there.

    The Treo is always a blend of the best of everything. The next Treo will have more space. Not a hard-drive but more space. And it will have WiFi. They may offer various models of Treo, but there will be one with WiFi.
  2. #22  
    I would think the most critical feature is to be able to to have a data transfer happening at the SAME TIME as a phone conversation.

    Whoever has that feature probably wins the early adapter vote.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I disagree with your disagreement...wifi doesn't belong in a cell phone -- at least not for now, it would shoot battery life to hell. VoWiFi would be great, but it's a cell phone that can go anywhere in the country, why bother when voice plans are cheap enough as it is on a reliable network?? VoIP would be great if [it didn't drain the battery] you lived on a college campus or business all day, but then I wouldn't be using a Treo...I'd be using a laptop/desktop instead. When at the airport, use Bluetooth DUN the tabs in firefox to download multiple pages in the background while you view the one in the foreground. Then there's the times when you're at Barnes & Noble, etc.....but wait you've already got the Internet on your phone, I'm sure you could handle slightly faster than dial-up speeds while you sip on your coffee...and now you're not tied down to a chain of coffee shops, you can go to ANY coffee shop you want. I mean, come on, the text is completely downloaded in like 10 seconds while you wait on the pics.

    If you want wifi, get another phone, because you're in a sub-niche market and you're not going got get a Treo with wifi unless you do the sd card thing or wait for the sled...or the late 2006/7 Treo.
    While some of your arguments make a little sense, a) it doesn't matter to the general public (this is like the more MHz is better thing)...most ppl just want the features because another model has it and b) some of your arguments are flawed. Your biggest flaw is assuming I want to carry my laptop around w/ me. Why the heck would I want to do that??? Part of the purpose of my Treo is to LOOSE the laptop whenever possible. Even if it's in on my shoulder in the case, I don't want to pull it out for casual surfing and checking e-mail in an airport.

    And if I could use WiFi in an area where there were lots of free WiFi hotspots (Austin for example) why would I pay for a data plan?! Also, what if I want to browse my local network from my Treo? WiFi again is the best option. (yeah, the last examples will be rare...but still an argument for having WiFi.)

    Darnell said it best....

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    To assume that the next Treo does not NEED WiFi to meet market demands implies that every other device maker's research is flawed. Because they are already including WiFi in their smart phones. Even the Tungsten C has WiFi. So Palm already has it there.

    The Treo is always a blend of the best of everything. The next Treo will have more space. Not a hard-drive but more space. And it will have WiFi. They may offer various models of Treo, but there will be one with WiFi.
    EXACTLY!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuty
    I would think the most critical feature is to be able to to have a data transfer happening at the SAME TIME as a phone conversation.

    Whoever has that feature probably wins the early adapter vote.
    That's EV-DV for Sprint/Verizon....the next step in CDMA data technology. Sprint had plans to roll it out and skip EV-DO altogether, but it was gonna be too far off and Verizon would have an advantage for too long. They MIGHT do EV-DV in 2007 (but they are looking @ other options as well.)

    Cingular has UMTS/HSDPA in major metropolitan areas. I believe these areas are capable of simultaneous voice & data now (from what I read.) Someone here will probably correct me though.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    To assume that the next Treo does not NEED WiFi to meet market demands implies that every other device maker's research is flawed. Because they are already including WiFi in their smart phones. Even the Tungsten C has WiFi. So Palm already has it there.

    The Treo is always a blend of the best of everything. The next Treo will have more space. Not a hard-drive but more space. And it will have WiFi. They may offer various models of Treo, but there will be one with WiFi.
    Like I said...they might be able to sell a couple hundred more Treo 700's if they have Wifi....but the way I'm looking at it, it's not going to be that cost effective since that'll be one less feature they can use to lull you into buying the 750. Palm is all about some incremental upgrades. All other device makers research is that they need to have featurs out the ****. The reason their research is different from Palm's is because they're the ones playin' catch up. Since they can't compete with the software available for Palm OS and the form factor, they've GOT to offer WiFi for these sub-niche people. If they were to compete head on with the Treo, feature for feature, they wouldn't sell a single one.

    This is how Apple incrementally upgrades their iPods. They change a little at a time...saving money themselves by adding less features, then selling more because people know they were pretty good from the get go. iPod killers yet, anyone?? Not really. They're still sellin' millions of 'em. If there were a Treo killer, it could only be PalmSource...not another Windows Mobile device or a lack of WiFi!!
  5. ash1348's Avatar
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    #25  
    I agree that Palm will introduce a new model in December, but mark my word, it is going to be a Treo 650 EV-DO. That's it. They also might add some features and fix some problems. But no Treo 700 in near future.

    On hard drive, I agree that Treo with hard drive doesn't make any sense. Remember that Palm wants to keep Treo's price below $600 mark, and a 4 Gig hard will add $190 to the price (just for the hard drive, not considering more expensive battery and other extra costs).

    On Wi-Fi, I don't understand why people don't get the fact that CARRIERS DON"T WANT TREOS WITH WI-FI. As simple as that. Palm will not risk its relationship with carriers over this issue to satisfy a small number of its customers.
  6. #26  
    grndslm, you seem to believe that the Treo is still the superior device. I own a Treo because I like it, but even I must be honest and realize that now it is Palm that is behind and other device makers now have Palm in their rear view. In time the market will reflect that in sales if the next Treo is missing features like WiFi.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Like I said...they might be able to sell a couple hundred more Treo 700's if they have Wifi....but the way I'm looking at it, it's not going to be that cost effective since that'll be one less feature they can use to lull you into buying the 750. Palm is all about some incremental upgrades.
    DUH! And the incremental upgrade would be to add Wi-Fi!

    Quote Originally Posted by ash1348
    I agree that Palm will introduce a new model in December, but mark my word, it is going to be a Treo 650 EV-DO. That's it. They also might add some features and fix some problems. But no Treo 700 in near future.

    On hard drive, I agree that Treo with hard drive doesn't make any sense. Remember that Palm wants to keep Treo's price below $600 mark, and a 4 Gig hard will add $190 to the price (just for the hard drive, not considering more expensive battery and other extra costs).

    On Wi-Fi, I don't understand why people don't get the fact that CARRIERS DON"T WANT TREOS WITH WI-FI. As simple as that. Palm will not risk its relationship with carriers over this issue to satisfy a small number of its customers.

    Model # (650 or 700) makes no difference. There will probably be a new model w/ some new features....nuff said.

    Edit: but to add a significant feature like EV-DO would mean a model # change. 670? 700? who knows...

    Re: Wi-Fi, if the carriers don't want Wi-Fi so bad, then why does the SX-66 have it?! (Yeah, not all I know....but one is enough to nullify your argument.) Come on, this is a loosing battle. I'll eat my shirt if the next Treo has no Wi-Fi.
    Last edited by Geckotek; 07/08/2005 at 02:09 PM.
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  8. #28  
    Geckotek, did you notice that grndslm really has no explaination as to why PALM'S Tungsten C has WiFi?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    While some of your arguments make a little sense, a) it doesn't matter to the general public (this is like the more MHz is better thing)...most ppl just want the features because another model has it and b) some of your arguments are flawed. Your biggest flaw is assuming I want to carry my laptop around w/ me. Why the heck would I want to do that??? Part of the purpose of my Treo is to LOOSE the laptop whenever possible. Even if it's in on my shoulder in the case, I don't want to pull it out for casual surfing and checking e-mail in an airport.
    I'm NOT assuming you want to carry around your laptop all the time...I certainly don't. I said in the airport, which would mean you're traveling. I travel all the time, and NEVER without my laptop (what true geek could travel without a laptop?). No matter where I go, I get broadband like speeds due to the tabs in firefox. I close one tab, and the next page is already open. I can't download a gig of movies, but I don't want to do that when I'm traveling...if I needed to, I could, but I haven't yet...nor wanted to.

    You're right about not wanting to pull it out for "casual surfing and checking email"...that's what I own a Treo 650 for. No matter where I am, I can do that. But, I'd gladly pull out my laptop for casual surfing if I were going to be sitting down in an airport for an hour. But if I don't have my laptop...got the next best thing -- my Treo. WiFi will not make it into the Treo. I seriously doubt they'd put it on there without Palm Linux. Why do I think they won't?? Let's go over all the reasons: (1) Because it's going to cost them extra money to add WiFi. (2) One less feature to get you to upgrade to the next next Treo (the 750). (3) Millions of people have bought Treos already and they have proven they didn't care about WiFi. (4) Palm OS 5 can't seamlessly roam between cellular towers and WiFi. (5) Speaking of cellular towers, the conservative carriers (Cingular & Verizon) prolly don't want you to have the option of not using their data plan even though most would use it anyway. (5) WiFi is too much of a battery hog!! (6) In Palm's research, they've prolly found that WiFi will not be a dealbreaker for most people; hence, WiFi in this particular smartphone being a sub-niche (OK, maybe not sub-niche, but at least niche) market. But we can only wait and see, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    And if I could use WiFi in an area where there were lots of free WiFi hotspots (Austin for example) why would I pay for a data plan?! Also, what if I want to browse my local network from my Treo? WiFi again is the best option. (yeah, the last examples will be rare...but still an argument for having WiFi.)
    It's $10/mo for a data plan with Sprint...not too much of a drag on my wallet considering it's got a much greater coverage area than your silly WiFi spots.

    I don't have those free WiFi spots like you, though...you're in that niche market I've been repeatedly talking about. What amount of time do you spend inside those WiFi hotspots versus outside of them (and remember we're talking about hotspots, not when you're at home or office in front of your desktop)??

    For what reason would you want to browse your local network from the Treo?? If you want to browse your local network, then use your cellular data connection. If you're trying to up/download files on your local network, bluetooth would work just fine (not the best for data transfer, I agree, but certainly good enough for MOST and at least it wouldn't drain your battery as easily).

    The ONLY areas again, that I see WiFi being useful are VoIP (which isn't happening on Palm 'til Palm Linux) and these hotspots where people spend such a minority of their time. And even in that hotspot, you've got your own hotspot, albeit a slower one....maybe a coldspot, but enough to get some browsing done for sure.

    Mark my words...WiFi ain't comin' in the next Treo. It prolly won't hit the Treo lineup until Palm Linux is released!!!
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    grndslm, you seem to believe that the Treo is still the superior device.
    That's because it is, silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    I own a Treo because I like it
    You're helping me prove my point too easily. So why in the heck did you buy a Treo instead of all these other superior Windows Mobile devices you're bragging about??

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    but even I must be honest and realize that now it is Palm that is behind and other device makers now have Palm in their rear view.
    Palm's behind?? You got some numbers to back that up? I've got some that say otherwise. "Palm in their rear view"...hahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    In time the market will reflect that in sales if the next Treo is missing features like WiFi.
    ...waitin' for it
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    DUH! And the incremental upgrade would be to add Wi-Fi!
    In your opinion, but I'm sure Palm's research team's opinion would differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    There will probably be a new model w/ some new features....nuff said.
    Of course...nuff said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    Edit: but to add a significant feature like EV-DO would mean a model # change. 670? 700? who knows...
    There are going to be upgrades...like camera, MHz, RAM, and EV-DO for sure....NOT WiFi....adding all that and WiFi would not be an incremental upgrade. It'd be a pretty big one, preventing people from upgrading to the one after this next upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geckotek
    Re: Wi-Fi, if the carriers don't want Wi-Fi so bad, then why does the SX-66 have it?! (Yeah, not all I know....but one is enough to nullify your argument.) Come on, this is a loosing battle. I'll eat my shirt if the next Treo has no Wi-Fi.
    The SX-66 has it 'cause nobody's buyin' it!!

    Be prepared to eat that shirt, Gecko!
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    So why in the heck did you buy a Treo instead of all these other superior Windows Mobile devices you're bragging about??
    Because I'm a long time Palm user. If I was a new customer that never owned a Palm or Windows device and simply looked at the available devices I probably would not buy a Treo.

    I think the Treo is a great device. But it has lost the top spot when it comes to being "the best".

    And folks here know I defend the Treo in message board battle all the time. But facts are facts. And side-by-side, feature-for-feature the Treo is no longer #1. They need to get WiFi in and they will.

    You're trying to say the Treo is best when it does not even have all the best features. You can't win playing with half a deck !

    Palm does have a vast library of programs, HOWEVER both Palm and PPC have plenty of programs for most practical needs. There are probably more freeware tools available for Unix (and flavors of Unix) than Windows, but guess what most of us have at home ?
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    Geckotek, did you notice that grndslm really has no explaination as to why PALM'S Tungsten C has WiFi?
    Well...you never asked, but companies do better when they have more products.

    Do you really have no explanation on why that same device doesn't have a cellular radio inside? Maybe it's because some people don't want a convergence device...so THEN their only option of really being able to use it for internet purposes is WiFi...Hence the Tungsten C and LifeDrive!! Why doesn't the LifeDrive have a keyboard....personally, that's more ridiculous to me.

    But the Treo is the best for 2 reasons: the keyboard and the fact that you can get access to the internet at ANYTIME!!
  14. #34  
    grndslm, all I can say is THANK GOD you are not making the decisions for Palm.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    grndslm, all I can say is THANK GOD you are not making the decisions for Palm.
    All in favor of voting in grndslm as Palm's new CEO, say Aye!

    j/k!

    I'm for following the streaming video standard... whichever supports that best, wifi or ev-do, I'm there.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    Because I'm a long time Palm user. If I was a new customer that never owned a Palm or Windows device and simply looked at the available devices I probably would not buy a Treo.
    That's sad. Now you're always going to be stuck with Palm, the losing company. Shoulda jumped ship as soon as you could have, Darnell.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    I think the Treo is a great device. But it has lost the top spot when it comes to being "the best".
    To what exactly? I love you you throw these blind statements around and say I'm playin' with half a deck. If I really believed there were a better device than the Treo...I would have mentioned it by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    And folks here know I defend the Treo in message board battle all the time. But facts are facts. And side-by-side, feature-for-feature the Treo is no longer #1. They need to get WiFi in and they will.
    Again...we're only going to be able to wait and see...but if everything I've mentioned above has just gone straight through you're head and you still believe the Treo's strength is around hotspots...you're one cracked up dude!

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    You're trying to say the Treo is best when it does not even have all the best features. You can't win playing with half a deck !
    I've already thrown my cards on the table, what're you playing with?

    [QUOTE=darnell]Palm does have a vast library of programs, HOWEVER both Palm and PPC have plenty of programs for most practical needs.

    Yea, but PPC doesn't have many free ones....once you pay for a $600 phone, you're gonna want some nice free apps.

    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    There are probably more freeware tools available for Unix (and flavors of Unix) than Windows, but guess what most of us have at home ?
    I'd be willing to bet that you're running Windows. I've got Linux and Windows -- I'm forced to use the latter because of the evil empires in this capitalist country. I can also bet you that your machine has more viruses/trojans/spyware than mine does. BTW, I'd recommend that anybody running Windows give Ubuntu Linux a chance!! It's prolly the nicest distribution for beginners and it's free to try....maybe go pick up a Live CD (it doesn't erase your Windows partition...doesn't touch it at all, runs straight off the CD) (LINK: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/)

    Also...guess what the next version of Palm is going to be built off of?? Da'z right!! Linux....you'll be able to use a ton of free Linux apps on your Palm as well as the vast library of free Palm programs already in existence!!
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by darnell
    grndslm, all I can say is THANK GOD you are not making the decisions for Palm.
    THANK GOD I'm the only one in this thread makin' any sense!! I'd seriously be willing to bet you my life that the next Treo doesn't have WiFi. They haven't needed it so far on the Treo....and they will go at least one more upgrade without needing it!
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael
    All in favor of voting in grndslm as Palm's new CEO, say Aye!

    j/k!

    I'm for following the streaming video standard... whichever supports that best, wifi or ev-do, I'm there.

    AYE!! heh...I doubt there's anything I'm saying that Palm hasn't already thought of.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I'm forced to use the latter because of the evil empires in this capitalist country.
    Got a problem with capitalism, Delta Airlines has a flight ready to take you away from your problem! And they are ready whenever you are! And an immagrant is waiting to take your spot!

    So don't feel like you need to endure the evils of capitalism another day!

    Did you ever stop to think that WiFi is faster than even the fastest EV-DO connection?

    Samsung e-mail phone challenges the Treo 650

    In my tests, I was able to get on the Web with the i730 at speeds ranging from 220 kilobits a second to 534 kilobits a second, which is between three and eight times as fast as the Treo's average speed of 70 kilobits a second. And that was on the Verizon EVDO network, which is available in most major U.S. cities. Using the phone's Wi-Fi capability, in my home and at a hotel, I was able to push the speed to nearly 700 kbps.
  20. #40  
    FINALLY there's no more responses for me to respond to....I can get outta this thread while I still have a chance.
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